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The bread with the big, airy holes....How, Bob, how?

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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 10:23 PM
Original message
The bread with the big, airy holes....How, Bob, how?
What's the secret to the bread with the big holes in it? Usually it's Italian or French. Are any of you able to actually produce a loaf of bread like that?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. i was just reading about that crusty lovely bread
it may be that the fold the dough while it rises

check out this

http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/04201.3.2121106886510661179
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not an easy answer
There are many variables ...... the flour (in particular the gluten content) .... the flour/water ratio .... the knead ..... the humidity when you let it ferment ..... the loaf formation ...... oven temp ...... and on and on.

AZDD6's link is a good one. King Arthur Flor's site has lots of info. But if you're **really** interested, buy their book. It is one of the best general books on baking I've ever seen. Bread Builders is another one, but is pricey and gets into the building of a brick hearth oven. The crusty, artisan style bread info you're looking for is in there, though, and its terrific.



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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. A more thorough answer - but still not complete
The bread you want to make is an art bound by the strictures of science. There are many variables. But there are, generally, only four basic ingredients: flour, water, yeast, and salt.

So what are the variables? Better to ask what isn't variable!

Here are some clues, but this is an involved subject and you may want to do some additional research on the net or at the library.

Flour: For a good, crusty artisan bread, you have to use bread flour. There are bread flours and there are bread flours. They have different gluten content. Something in the range of 10.5% to 12% is right. If you have the choice, use an unbleached type.

Water: Generally, tap water is okay unless yours has a strong taste. If so, use bottled water. If yours in chlorinated and tastes like it, let it sit in a bowl for a few hours and the chlorine will go away. Also related to water is how wet a dough you make. For a slow rise dough (see below) a wetter one may be better. Something like 62% to 65% water, by weight. Flour weight is variable, so you'll simply have to weight what you're using. Water, however, is constant: 1 pint = 1 lb.

Yeast: Here, there is a simple answer and a lot of not so simple sub-answers. For all intents and purposes, yeast is yeast. The easiest to use in good old dry yeast like you find in the small envelopes at the grocery store. The subanswers are in how you use that yeast. The best way to get a good tasty loaf is to use a little less yeast than you might ordinarily and to allow the yeast to develop slowly. This might be by allowing a long, slow, low temperature (room temp) rise. Alternately, depending on the bread, you might also use a starter - a biga, a sponge, a starter, a poolish, etc.

Mixing: "Mix less rather than more" is probably the best advice if you follow the slow rise method. Rough dough handling is fully appropriate for many doughs. Indeed, if you need to make bread in a hurry, mixing well and roughly helps quickly develop the gluten. But the gluten also has the capacity to develop on its own, but only with time. To mix hard and then allow a slow rise will result in an overdeveloped dough that will not rise as well.

Dough handling: Handle the dough developed slowly much more gently than you would a quickly developed (roughly mixed) dough. When punching it down, don't follow the word (punch) literally! Just fold it over and allow the air to escape, but don't beat the air our of it. that "air" is really the gas that causes the dough to rise. Save it! The flip side, however, is to not be **too** gentle. You do not want air pockets in your dough after folding it. Make sure no air is trapped in the folding by pressing it out.

Steam: Nothing helps crust development more than steam. Commercial bakeries have, quite literally, steam injectors in their ovens. The bread is steamed for the first 10 minutes or so of the bake. This is, obviously, impossible at home. So what to do? Well, two things, really. First, spritz the formed loaves before you bake them. No need to saturate them, but a mist spray of water will help. Next, when you set up your oven, put a pan in there. Ideally, this is a cast iron skillet that will hold the heat. A thin aluminum or stainless steel pan won't do at all. Allow the pan to get hot with the oven. When you put in your bread, put some *boiling* water into the pan. Be careful! It will instantly turn to steam and you could be scalded. Try to get a 1/4" (4 oz or so) of water into the pan so you have some water in reserve to turn to steam. Quickly close the oven door and don't open for at least 10 minutes. This will give a fair approximation of a steam injection system ... close ... but not perfect. But it is the best you can do at home.

Another related thing is the loaf formation and treatment. You know those slash marks you see on bread? They're not for decoration. They serve a definite purpose. As you form the loaf and let it sit for the last rise in situ, the dough forms a skin. If the slashes are not made, the skin will inhibit the rise - and those "big holes" you want. So slash the top of the loaf. This requires a **very** sharp knife. Use a single edge razor blade. Really. Not a knife. I guarantee you do not have one that is sharp enough for this. Even professional bakers use a scalpel-like device called a "lame" (Fr., lahm). While a lame is double sided, it is, essentially a razor.

Baking: Bread wants a higher temperature. About 400 or even 450, depending on the bread. In the end, you want an internal temp of about 200. But you have to balance the crust formation and browning against the time to get that internal temperature, so all the temps I just gave are only guidelines.

As I said, bread making, and baking in general, is an artform constrained by hard science and rigorous exactitudes. The best way to learn is to read and then dive in. The cost for the ingredients is pretty minimal. So have fun. Experiment. See what works for you. And if you don't get that perfect loaf at first, don't do anything but chuckle and then move on to the next batch.

It ain't rocket science ... but its close!

Have fun!!!!!

:hi:
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. OK, I'm impressed.
Do you do this for a living or did you learn all that stuff from those two books? If so, I'd better get me to Amazon.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Nope, I'm not a baker
Edited on Thu Feb-10-05 01:36 PM by Husb2Sparkly
Some from these books and some is from my own memory and training. I'm sorta in the biz.

edit to add: some other books I looked at include an old notebook of mine and The Professional Baker ... which is more than 30 years old and long out of print.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. i print out and save so many of your posts i need more ink and paper
ROFL
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Just Guessing
But you should probably best let a dough take its time rising. If it takes two hours at room temp, it takes two hours. And then another for a second rise.

Time probably allows for more interaction of the gases. But like I said, it's just a guess.

My italian dough is the same thing I use for pizzas. For pizzas, after the initial rise, I "cold rise" it in the fridge, let it stay in there for up to four days until I need it. That's the stuff that comes out seriously gassey.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You're right on the money!
Slow is best for the crusty artisan breads. It is even possible to use a weak enough starter or sufficiently small amount of yeast to go overnight for the first rise.

A note about slow rises, though .... they develop flavor more than they develop a good dough. To be sure, the dough from a slow rise is better than the dough from a fast rise, but it is more for the flavor that people do slow rise breads.

When you do a slow rise, naturally occurring wild yeast comes into play. Yeast really is everywhere. If you bake a lot, you have a good deal of it in your house (and if anyone there has allergies or asthma, they know this!). Wild yeast adds flavor that commercial yeast may not have. This adds to the reason for the slow rise ..... more time for wild yeasts to find your dough and join the party!
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Here's something you might like to see, H2S
It's the results of an experiment submitted to a science fair last year.
The very bottom sentence made me think this is an elementary school child's project. Very cute.

http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/Current/Projects/J0408.pdf
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. That rates a heartfelt "Awwwwww" :-)
What a great find!

But the kid sorta hit on the truth at the end. Wild yeast is less concentrated than commercial. It does need more time if that's all you have. Wild yeast, by the way, is the proper thing for a true sourdough starter ... but the starter then goes on for weeks .... or even years or decades in some homes and commercial bakeries. As long as it gets fed it stays alive and vital ... all from wild yeast.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. One tip off of her problem is her using the bread machine
Unless it's one where you can program the length of time for the first rise. I don't know if there are any that have such a feature.

About the starter for sourdough. Sort of a related thing is what I read somewhere that immigrants to the U.S. at the turn of the century would dip a bit of clothing into yogurt and let it dry. They would then be able to use it for their yogurt starter in the new country. It could have been Jeff Smith, the Frugal Gormet that talked about on his program or in one of his cookbooks. Older yogurt cultures are smoother in flavor - as you probably know.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That sounds completely plausible
I've never heard that before, but it makes sense. Yogurt is just one more of the many wonderful cultured products.

For that matter, so's salami!
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wow, such info
I almost forgot I had posted this question. (Things have been crazy around here.) I'm so glad I remembered to check it out. Thanks so much for all the tips, information and links. I'm saving them all and will get busy trying them all out. If I come out with some decent, rustic bread, I'll get back to you all. Husb2, thanks for such detail. I'll pay close attention to all these factors you pointed out.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-11-05 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. These guys can teach you everything about bread and food in general:
http://www.zingermans.com/Category.pasp?Category=bread

Here's an excerpt from their book about the holes in bread, "...what you want to see in an old-style artisan country loaf is nice, uneven hole development. Like a spelunker, a skilled bread buyer is looking for plenty of big caverns, archways, and passageways through the loaf. The holes are a result of the carbon dioxide that the dough emits as it develops. High volumes of commercial yeast raise a dough much more quickly, but flavor - and, visually, the hole development is sacrificed in the process. Poor hole development is a sign of trouble. Tiny holes are a sign that the bread in question is heavily yeasted or wasn't allowed an appropriate amount of time for it's primary fermentation. When you eat it, you're not going to find much flavor."
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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. Heres a really easy recipe for peasant bread.
It won't give you the big holes, but you can enjoy it while perfecting artisan bread.

Peasant Bread

2 cups lukewarm water (105 to 115)
1 package dry yeast
1 tbs sugar
2 tsp salt
4 cups bread flour
cornmeal for dusting

Mix together water, yeast, sugar & salt. Stir until dissolved. Add in bread flour.

Grease a large bowl with butter. Place dough & turn to cover with butter. Cover with a damp towel & let rise in a warm place until doubled, about 45 minutes to 1 hour.

Grease a baking sheet & sprinkle with cornmeal. Divide dough into 2 parts. Shape each loaf into an oblong. Do not knead. Put dough on baking sheet & let rise another 45 minutes to 1 hour until doubled.

Preheat oven 5o 425.

Brush tops of loaves with melted butter & bake 10 minutes. Reduce oven to 375 & bake another 20 minutes.

Remove loaves & while still hot brush with more butter.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. kicking another bread thread n/t
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
17. We're going to need a separate bread forum
:)

Thanks to DU C&B, I got a Kitchen Aid mixer. Then, I got a link to buying SF sourdough starter and a link to Carl Griffiths' Oregon Trail starter. You guys are turning me into a bread maniac.

I love it here. :woohoo: :rofl:
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