Rombauer's Panettone Recipe -- this doesn't seem right.

[Sparkly]

Stinky LOVES Panettone, so I try to make it each year. I'm doing it now but remembered that there's one step that never quite works: the "sponge." I *thought* a sponge was a stickier (from more liquid) sort of starter for the yeast, with a smaller amount of flour.

However, this one has 1/2 cup milk with the yeast, then a full cup of flour and a Tb. of sugar. It resembles hard, dry pie crust dough rather than anything I'd call a "sponge."

In years past, I've done this with the mixer, and added more and more liquid. This time I mixed it with my hands and packed it together more or less.

Also in years past, I've wondered why the instructions say to make the "sponge" (rock) in a large bowl with the mixer, since it then goes right into another bowl and the mixing bowl has to be washed for the next part -- annoying.

ALSO in years past, I've vowed to find another recipe. But I always forget and go back to this one!

Right now I've got only those ingredients involved so I could toss them and start over. I do have raisins and candied fruits soaking in rum.

Advice?

[housewolf]

1. A sponge can be almost any wetness

Some are more liquid and some are more dough-like (for instance, a biga (dough starter) technically is a sponge, as is a poolish (batter starter). "Sponge" is sort of an alle-encomapssing terms for a bread starter that's made up as a preparation for a final bread dough.

I would expect a sponge that's 4 oz liquid and 1 cup of flour to be a very thick and sticky batter, but I wouldn't expect it to be dough-like. Depending, of course, on how you measured your cup of flour, and how much the cup of flour actually weighed. There is a lot of variability in the weight of a cup of flour and when it comes to bread (and much other baking as well), it's the weight of the measure of flour that's important, not the measured volume - because it's the weight that determines how the liquid is absorbed. Depending on the dryness & age of your flour (and hummidity can be a factor), and how you fill your measure, a cup of flour can weigh anywhere from 3.5 oz to 5 oz or a little more. Makes a big difference in bread baking!

What recipe are you using? I've never made Pannetone but can take a look at your recipe and get a feel for how it should turn out.

As for the use of the mixer for the sponge, if the sponge is supposed to be dough-like (like a biga), it's much easier to incorporate the flour into the liquid in a mixer than by hand. If it's supposed to be more liquidy, skipping the mixer step and mixing it directly into it's rising bowl is fine.

Ummmm... Pannetone! Stinky is one lucky fellow!

[Sparkly]

2. Thanks!!!

It's sitting there like a rock right now... Can such a thing rise, or should I start over??

Yes, mixing by hand didn't work so well...

The flour was half bread flour and half all-purpose. I used one of those metal measuring cups that comes in a set, each measuring out a specific amount, so the ingredient goes right to the brim; I scooped the 1/2 cup one right into flour that's been sitting in the container for months -- so now that I think of it, it was probably well-settled and densely packed. Never thought of that weight thing before!!

Yes, it's a "biga" (looked up another recipe in the King Arthur's Flour cookbookand the proportions were about the same, and they called it a biga).

It's in the 1997 edition of Rombauer's Joy of Cooking. Do you have that? Otherwise I'll type it here.

[housewolf]

3. I have the 1975 edition of Joy of Cooking

It has a recipe for No-Knead Yeast Coffee Cake or Pannetone - makes 2 9" tube cakes/breads

It starts out having you combine 1 c 105 - 115 degree water with 2 pkgs of yeast and letting that sit for 3 - 5 minutes, then adding 1 c of all-purpose flour and letting it sit for 30 minutes in a warm place (but it doesn't specify doing it in a mixer). Does that sounds like your recipe and directions?

Right now I'd suggest that you add a bit of water to the mix that you have going. One way to do that is to spray it with a some water if you have a spray bottle, or sprinkle a little water over it. Let that sit for a couple minutes and then try to mix the water in. If it's still too dry, repeat until have something that feels slightly moist, is a bit tacky but not sticky (what's the difference? - sticky is when you touch the dough and a goodly amount sticks to your fingers. Tacky is when you touch the dough and it tries to stick to your fingers but most of what tries to pull up stays with the dough ball and only tiny bits stick to your fingers). Once you get it moist enough it should rise for you, and with 2 pkgs of yeast it should rise pretty quickly.

Good luck!

[Sparkly]

4. Different recipe

This one starts with the raisins, citron, rum, etc. -- soaking separately.

The dough:

"Meanwhile, to prepare the sponge, combine in a large mixing bowl or the bowl of a heavy-duty mixer:
1 package active dry yeast
1/2 cup milk, warmed to 105-115 degrees

Let stand until the yeast is dissolved, about 5 minutes.

Add:
1/2 cup all-purpose flour
1/2 cup bread flour
1 Tb. sugar

Mix by hand or on low speed until the dough comes together. Transfer the dough to a buttered bowl, cover with plastic wrap, and let rise in a warm place (75-80 degrees) until doubled in volume, about 1 1/2 hours.

(Then comes sugar, eggs, butter, etc.)

I used evaporated milk, reconstituted with half water; and I covered with a towel instead of plastic wrap (oops).

It's lookin' kind of crusty... :(

[housewolf]

7. Oh I see...

it has you using the hydrating the yeast yeast in the mixer bowl, then adding the flour for the sponge, using the mixer to mix the sponge, then transferring to a different bowl to let it rise in a warm place. That makes sense if, when making the bread dough, it has you mix other ingredients in the mixer and then adding the sponge in.

Nonetheless, your sponge should rise if you give it some additional water so as to hydrate it a bit better - I think all it needs is some more water to activate the yeast and make the flour more available to it. Then you could cover it with plastic instead of your towel, as the plastic will hold the moisture inside better than the towel.

[Sparkly]

5. Also ...

I may have let the milk cool too much (I scalded it first) and the yeast didn't want to dissolve, but I finally whisked it.

[housewolf]

9. That should be okay...

the warmth would "kickstart" the yeast, but it should still be fine with the cooled milk. With yeast, the danger is more in using something too hot that will kill the yeast than something too cool.

[Sparkly]

6. I think I'm gonna start over.

It's been 1 1/2 hours at least, and it's not doubled (just more crusty!).

I'll be really careful about the flour measurements!! Anything else?

[housewolf]

8. Go for a "consistency of dough" rather than exact flour & water measurements

Add some additional water or milk. You want something that's pretty stiff but moist enough to create a favorable environment for the yeast to rise.

Or just add some moisture to what you already have going... if the yeast hasn't risen yet it should still be good.

Does your mixer have a dough hook? If so, use it to mix the sponge - it should be able to handle mix a dough that stiff more thoroughly than you can by hand. Basically, you're look at what's called, in baker's terms, 100% (or more) hydration - the amount (weight)of water compared to the amount (weight) of flour, which is quite a stiff dough. A normal bread dough is about a 65% hydration where the amount of water is about 2/3 the amount of flour, so this is really a pretty stiff dough.

[Sparkly]

10. Wow -- what a difference!!

I am looking at these two mixtures, reviewing the measuring cups and what I did over and over, thinking I must have made some huge mistake somewhere, but I don't know what. The new sponge or biga looks completely different from the old one.

All I did was stir the flours a bit before *spooning* them into the measuring cups; and I used the mixer with the dough hook. It's a totally different animal.

I now have it covered in plastic wrap. (I kept a very close eye on the serrated cutting edge this time. I don't trust that thing.)

[housewolf]

11. Okaaayyy!!! You learned some things about bread baking today!

The "Dip and Sweep" method of measuring flour is iffy, at best, especially when it comes to bread baking. If you have a kitchen scale you might have some fun by checking to see how much the weights vary.

Good luck with the rest of your Pannetone experience. I hope it turns out great! But if you run into any more problems, I'll be glad to try to help.

Here's to you -
:toast:

[Sparkly]

12. I sure did, thanks to you!

I used to bake a LOT (my Dad was a bread-baker in the army during WWII and taught me) but I NEVER realized what a difference flour-measuring techniques could make! Wow. That's a revelation.

Right now it's looking beauuuuutiful. I know you probably have gazillions of recipes, but if you want this one, I'll post the whole thing!

:hi:

[Sparkly]

13. Hey housewolf, it came out great!!

In the end, the dough was too soft and sticky if anything, but the results are yummy.

I suppose it's one of those trial-and-error things one has to get a sense of, but it's hard to do that when I only make it once a year.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise! :hi:

[housewolf]

14. I'm SO glad!

I'm thrilled for you, so glad it turned out well for you and Stinky.

Yeah, bread baking is all about going for a proper consistency of the dough. Unfortunatelly most bread recipes neglect to mention this fact! So many factors are involved - humidity, age of the flour, your own personal measuring techniqes... the key is to just add water if the dough is too dry and add flour if it's sticky... always looking for that "tacky but not sticky" point that comes with experience.

Happy holidays to you both!

Thanks for your offer to post the recipe... I don't think I'll get to it this year though. Maybe next year!



:yourock:

[hippywife]

15. Yaaaaaaa!

I love, love, love panettone. It's pure heaven to me. Stinky is so lucky that you'll make it for him.

I have had a recipe bookmarked for years and have never went to the trouble of actually making it. Now it's no longer there.

Maybe one of these days, I'll actually do it.

I once heard someone say that when baking bread, the consistency should be like that of a woman's breast. So, maybe you could entice Stinky to help. :rofl:

Housewolf is absolutely the best bread resource we have. :thumbsup:

[housewolf]

16. Others say like a baby's bottom...

your choice!

:rofl:

[tigereye]

19. hmm, this puts in perspective a bf's comments back in the day...

:rofl: :hi:

[hippywife]

21. Back in the day is right, sister! LOL

I don't think the comparison would "hold up" today in my case. :rofl:

[tigereye]

18. isn't that interesting... what a diff. that could make

my husband is the "dough/bread" guy in the house and he loves the KA mixer dough hook.


My MIL used to bake Pannetone in a coffee can. Yummy.

[NMDemDist2]

17. not sure it will help Spark, but I always take a wire wisk to the flour before

I scoop it into the measuring cup....

[woofless]

20. I weigh flour on a gram scale for everything I bake.

There is some little variation depending on what resource you're using as a guide but I have very good results with 125 grams per cup of flour.

Woof