Possible problem with new sourdough starters

[housewolf]

Apparantly this is a relatively new problem has occurred over the past few years. I wanted to post the info here as a reference for folks who experience problelms starting up a new starter.

From Peter Reinhart -
July 15, 2006
Sourdough Starter Correction for "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" Readers

Hello Again,

I have been receiving e-mails from readers of the "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" (the BBA for short) about a problem that our recipe testers have already faced--sourdough (i.e., wild yeast) starters that bubble away early and then go dormant. I have addressed this in American Pie and will do so with more detail in the upcoming whole grains book, but this is for those new folks who are writing to me, so I can refer them to this site for a quick explanation and solution.

Through the work of a diligent group of home bakers at the King Arthur Baking Circle (www.kingarthurflour.com), led by one of our current testers, Debbie Wink, it was discovered that a strain of bacteria called leuconostoc exists in a lot of flour (moreso now, it seems than a few years ago). This bacteria masquerades as yeast in the early stage of a seed culture starter, in that it generates a lot of carbon dioxide making it appear that the wid yeast cells are growing rapidly. However, the wild yeast really needs a more acidic environment than exists during the first few days of the starter's existence and, unfortunately, the leuconostoc interferes with yeast growth during this grand masquerade. At a certain point, as the bacteria causes the dough to become more acidic, the acid actually de-activates the leuconostoc (it actually contributes to its own demise), but the wild yeast have not had a chance to propogate and grow in numbers, so there is a domancy period in which nothing seems to be happening. Many folks have assumed they killed their starter when it did not seem to respond to a Day 3 or Day 4 feeding, and threw it out. Others waited and saw mold form on the top of the starter and, of course, they too threw it out. That's about the time I start getting their e-mails. So here are two solutions to the problem:

First, if you are starting from scratch, use canned pineapple juice instead of water during the first two days of feeding. The acid in the juice is just at the right ph level to acidify the dough to the yeast's liking but not to the leuconostoc. The starter should then work as written. You should then switch to back to water from Day Three onward, and slowly the pineapple juice will dilute out as you feed and refresh your starter over time.

Second, and this is a big breakthrough I think, you should stir your seed culture starter two or three times a day, for about one minute each time, to aerate it. Yeast loves oxygen and multiplies faster when you stimulate the mixture with air. In addition, the stirring evens out the hydration of the dough and exposes any surface organisms that may have drifted onto the starter to the acidic environment within, and thus deactivates them while the yeast and the good lactobacillus organisms continue to grow. I've lost count of how many people solved their starter problem simply by this aeration technique. Once your starter is fully established it will be healthy enough to not need this added process, but it would be wise, I think, to continue the aeration throughout the seed culture phase.

If you are already into the process of beginning a seed culture but did not know about the "pineapple juice solution," fret not. Just begin the frequent aeration and see what happens. Most likely, your starter will come to life and when it does, it will probably stay on the schedule as written in the book.

[wildflower]

1. Interesting

I've heard of the pineapple juice but didn't know the reason for the stirring.

In my case, it got a few bubbles and turned sour, but otherwise just sat there. After 8 days, I finally 'cheated' by adding a little store-bought yeast. It's been doing well since then.

[housewolf]

6. I wondered about the pineapple juice method, too

I wasn't sure if it was just another variation of the grape/raisin/orange/cabbage/etc methods of starter-making, or what. It never occured to me that it was a solution to a problem.

[wildflower]

7. This may sound crazy

But what about using yogurt in the starter? I keep reading sourdough starter produces lactobacillus, though maybe the two strains are too different?

Also, what about using beer? It seems to me the alcohol would kill off that initial bacteria, and some beers even have live yeast, don't they?

I'm still learning, but I find this topic endlessly fascinating.

[housewolf]

8. I don't see any point in using yogurt or beer

It's a different strain of lactobacilli that cultivated in a sourdough starter from what's in yogurt. Anything else in yogurt isn't needed (and could possibly be detrimental to) the environment that your microbes are creating for themselves.

I don't know whether beer contains live yeast or not. There's a certain type that I think _might_, and that's lambic beer made from wild yeasts in Belgium. But other beers might contain live yeast, or not, I just don't know. However I do know that the strains on yeast in beer are not the same strains of yeast found in sourdough starters.

While what's called "baker's yeast" is the active yeast used in both sourdough and beer-making, there are many strains of the baker's yeasts and certaain varieties have been cultivated for beer-making and others for bread-making. Whereas certain varities of S. (Saccharomyces) cerevisiae and carlsbergensis, are used in beer-making, another variety of S. cerevisiae is what's cultured for yeasted bread making.

The dominant varieties of yeast found in sourdough starters are usually S. cerevisiae, C. (Candida) milleri (most common), C. humilis, S. exiguus and Issatchenkia orientalis, although altogether about 20 different strains of yeast have been identified in sourdough starters, and about 50 strains of lactobacilli. The thing is that there will be 1 dominant strain and then other varieties that co-exist and are non-dominant.

All of which is to say is that there's A LOT going on those first 3 days of starting up a new starter. While it doesn't look like much from our perspective, there's a mass of activity going on with the various strains of yeast and lactobacilli vying for dominance, growing, changing and adapting to their new environment. My goal for them is to raise and flavor bread dough to their maximum capacity, so to me, it makes more sense to make it as optimal as possible for them by giving them an environment of flour and water so that they can get on with their business of surviving and thriving in flour and water. Other ingredients can hinder that process, either by altering the pH or by introducing competing micro-organisms. I'm not quite a purist, but believe in keeping it new starters as simple as possible.

I don't know if any of this makes much sense to you. I find the whole thing about the microbiology of sourdough starters to be fascinating but it's been quite a some time ago that I did my amateur's research.

[wildflower]

9. Makes sense

I suspected the strains might be different. I found a recipe for a beer starter that I may try sometime for the flavor.

Thanks!

[Inchworm]

2. Awesome Housewolf

I will definitely use this information.

You may remember a while back when I thought I saw mold in my starter. Once I got into it I saw that it wasn't really mold, but just the way the blackish liquid looked in combination with the "crunchies" inside the container.

You describe what has been happening to my starter. It goes... then seems to stop.

Thanks a heap!

:hi:

EDIT: I mooshed the spellcheck button - definitely seems to whip my butt every time :D

[housewolf]

5. When you say that "it goes... then seems to stop"

What sort of time frame does that take? What's your process for maintaining your starter? Do you fully activate it prior to baking with it?

The problem described is related to starting up a new starter, before it's microbes are all shaken out. Once the starter is established and the microbes are working in a healthy symbiotic manner, the acid they generate kills off the bacteria that causes the problem described in the article.

If you have a healthy, established starter that used to double in volume and rise bread well, and now it doesn't, then there's something else going on (too much acidity, yeast/bacteria out of balance, or a generally unhealthy environment for your microbes). If I remember correctly from your previous post about your starter and the mold, I think you said that you've had the starter for quite a while, some number of years or so. It may be that its microbes have gotten out of balance and it needs to be (what they call) "doctored" or "rinsed" to bring it back into a healthy, active balance.

If you want to let me know what's going on with it, we can work to improve it.

[Warpy]

3. That explains a lot

I loved the flavor of the red grape starter method, but it just didn't have enough power to give a good rise to bread. The bacterial contamination might be why. Still, the bacteria should have been killed off by the acid given off by the yeast as the mixture soured.

Should I try this method again this summer, I'll try aerating it and see if that makes a difference. If not, there's always the fix of adding a little dry yeast to the flour before mixing the starter in for flavor.

[housewolf]

4. Another way is to add a little bit of rye flour to the starter

when you feed it to activate it for baking. Rye does a great job of getting a sluggish starter moving.

[EFerrari]

10. This is very interesting, housewolf because it sounds a lot like

what is happening here.

Hmmm. Zool and Pacha are already in progress so I'm going to try stirring them. Maybe I can get some juice tonight and start a third pet. We're going to need another refrigerator at this rate. lol

Thanks for posting this! :hi: