Arghh! My daughter won't do her classwork!

[OnionPatch]

First I should say that my daughter is perfectly normal, healthy and intelligent. She's five years old and in kindergarten. The teacher keeps telling me that she sits and dawdles instead of doing the classwork. I have the same problem with her and her homework. (I have to say, I was a bit surprised that kindergarteners have to do nightly homework. Shows how long it's been since I was in school.)

Anyway, when this problem first reared its head, I began starting the homework early in the afternoon to allow plenty of time. I offered rewards to her for focusing and working harder, etc. etc. It's still not working that well. She's still dawdling often. Sometimes she'll do ANYTHING to keep from actually doing the work; scratch, look out the window, play with the pencil, go to the bathroom, ask for a snack. Sometimes she sits in front of her work and looks like she's ready to cry. And it's not that she doesn't understand it. She totally knows what she's supposed to be doing. The funny part is that she's enthusiastic about most anything else she does!!! What gives?

Anyway, I was hoping that there might be some parental units out there that would have some advice for me. What can I do to help learning be more fun for her? I hate to use threats and force to make her do her work. I'm worried that it will make her hate school more than ever. And how can I crack the whip, so to speak, without making the whole school experience negative? Right now I'm threatening to take away all television if I don't hear from her teacher that she's doing better next week. What about books? Are there any good ones on how to make learning fun?

[mzteris]

1. doing "busy work"

is NEVER fun.

Is she a "young five"? Does she even want to BE in school? (There are other options - wait a year. Homeschool. Other types of classrooms/schools - Montessori, for example.)

Have you asked her what the problem is?

Kids are not naturally "lazy" - if she's not doing the work - there's a REASON. And "punishing" will NOT help.

You have to get the bottom of WHY.

Is it too hard. Too easy. Too boring. Too dumb. Too babyish. Too silly.

Does she have trouble with writing. With reading. With focus. With attention. With distractions. With noise. With silence.

Is it too bright. Too dark. The work surface too high/low.

Does she need to "move around" (bounce, chew, stand, wiggle).

Is the "writing utensil" suitable for her. Too fat, too skinny, too short, too long, too much tactile feedback or not enough.

What does she WANT to do instead?

Just my opinion, but your child is *most likely* either bright AND/OR has some "learning differences" (sometimes but not always to include that dreaded word disabilities - sometimes different is just Different!)

For some good books on learning - Mel Levine has two good ones out there now: "All Kinds of Minds" and "The Myth of Laziness".

[OnionPatch]

2. Thanks for responding

Lots of stuff to think about there...let's see, maybe she is a young five in that she really doesn't like going to school. She's an only child, we're older parents who felt immensely blessed to be able to have a child at all at our age so she is probably a little spoiled and pretty used to having things her way. I spend lots of time playing with her, reading, etc. in a very relaxed and flexible atmosphere. I think the contrast between that and the strict schedule and discipline of school is not going over so well with her. At home, if she doesn't feel like coloring, we do something else.

I've asked her why she doesn't want to do it and she says "because she already knows all that dumb stuff" and "it's boring." And I can see that it probably is, but practice is useful and in among most of the stuff she already knows, is stuff she doesn't know and needs to learn. I don't think she has trouble with writing, reading or focusing. She does all just fine when she feels like it. She is quite bright, she already knew how to read and write small sentences before she started kindergarten and has already won an award for having the best handwriting in kindergarten. I realize she'd probably do better in a less conventional school. I would have loved to send her to Montessori but when I looked into it, the price was, to me, exhorbitant. Totally out of the question. There's no way we can afford Montessori or home schooling for that matter unless we move out of our house and into a cardboard box.

Thanks for the suggestions of the books. I'll definitely pick them up at the library and read them over.

[mzteris]

3. Can you talk to the teacher

about giving her more challenging work?

My son's K teacher first gave him "advanced reading time" one-on-one during the other kids "rest time" for a few weeks. Then she made arrangements with the 1st grade teacher for my son to go to her classroom every morning for reading. Then in 1st grade, he went to 2nd grade for reading and math, then in 2nd grade - well - we said the heck with it and kept him home! LOL. Because he felt like he didn't "belong" to either classroom getting bounced around all day. :(

Being BORED with most of the work will cause a kid to shut down - even if *some* of it is unfamiliar. Free spirits - especially BRIGHT free spirits - don't seem to thrive in a strict/ discplinarian atmosphere. Freedom to move around, explore in-depth, absorb and move on, ignore for the nonce and return later when more inclined - freedom to still enjoy LEARNING instead of being forced to fill in little boxes and color inside the lines.

Oooo - that reminds me of another book, "Coloring Outside the Lines" by Roger Shank. www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060930772?v=glance

Does your school districts offer other options? Charters, magnets, gifted programs, etc? My younger son is in Montessori but it's Charter, not private, so we don't have to pay for it.

[OnionPatch]

4. Well, the teacher brought it up to me, actually.

Like she wasn't sure how to handle it or something but I think it was just her way of getting my attention so I would do something about it. We're going to talk again about it in a week or so and I can ask her about more challenging work.

I do believe my daughter is a bright and free-spirit and I would like to see her have more flexibility to learn her own way, but then again, doesn't everyone need to learn that sometimes you have to work at things that are tedious? I mean, I would never finish a craft or home-improvement project if I refused to bother with some of the tedious parts of the job. I think at some point she needs to gain the discipline to work at things even if it's not exactly what she feels like doing at the time. The work she's asked to do would not even take that long if she just did it.

I actually like her teacher. She seems to work really hard at making things interesting and fun for the kids and the kids love her. But it is public school so she doesn't have all that much freedom. Unfortunately, we live in a rather backwards area of the state and there aren't all that many educational options. Unless you have $$$ or you're a fundamentalist Christian. No charters that I know of, but I would not know where to even look. I hadn't heard of anything like that here. I think I'm going to have to stick with the public school system and try to "enhance" her learning at home, at least for now. Thanks for all the book ideas, I'll get to reading.

I wanted to ask, do you homeschool? I've always been interested in that but it just seems an impossibility for us. How do you do it?

[fight4my3sons]

5. I don't think that homeschooling would be an impossibility.

It sounds like you were already doing it before you sent her to public school :-) I have three sons, my oldest is three. I am planning on homeschooling. I guess I already am. Depends on how you look at it. Some believe that you begin at birth, some think you begin at school age. There is a homeschooling group here at DU if you would like to come over and check out some more information. I have found information and support over there. Hope to see you soon :hi:

[OnionPatch]

10. I didn't know there was

a homeschooling forum here! Thanks, I'll check it out.

[mzteris]

7. My first thought upon reading:

"doesn't everyone need to learn that sometimes you have to work at things that are tedious?"

was: At 5??

My next thought was - did you ever watch her when she REALLY WANTED to do something difficult that she really had to work at? Note the level of concentration and dedication. The fierce look of determination on her face.

Things we want to do aren't necessarily all that "tedious" - and as we get older we figure out that to do the things we WANT to do, sometimes there are things we HAVE to do. For kids, learning should be child's play. Really. :) Playing IS learning. Learning should NOT be "work". And for a lucky few, learning never really does become "work". Love of learning is innate in kids. That sense of wonder. Remember: "Why Why Why Why Why Why WHY???????" :rofl: It's just that "school" can really whack that out of a kid if isn't approached correctly.

It's hard for some to believe that kids, left to their own devices, will actively seek out learning, but it's true. Especially the ones who've not been spoiled by a "poor school experience".

Homeschooling: it's NOT for everyone. I do homeschool one son. I graduated one from PS and have another in 1st grade in a Charter Montessori school. My hs'ed son just turned 12. He's gifted and LD and very much an outofthebox thinker. He LOVED learning and really loved the idea of going to school, but it just wasn't a good match for him. Maybe a different school would have worked, but we'll never know. It soured him completely and totally on the PS system and he'd rather die than return to a "regular classroom". He is eagerly looking forward to the day he can take classes at the local community college, though.

BTW - Do NOT let people tell you that kids "need school" for socialization. HS kids generally have a better quality, more real-world, more diverse socialization than a kid sitting in "same age" classroom all day will ever get. You need a calendar just to keep up with all they do!

As for the financial situation, yeah, it's difficult having only one breadwinner in the family, but doable. Most people live in smaller houses and make do with less stylish cars/clothes, etc. Things to consider, if you're working, is how much do you actually net after things like eating out lunch, before/after school care, "dressy work clothes" (panty hose!), gas/parking/car/ for commute to work. Then there's that intangible STRESS thing. Not to mention people who are working FT usually eat too much fastfood/takeout/restaurant food and get sick more often. (Another perk of hs'ing is your child is exposed to fewer "sick kids!")

There ARE single hs'ing moms and hs'ers who both work, and even hs'ing dads! - some people get really creative in working from home or doing freelance/consulting type work. Writing articles/books. Selling things on EBAY. Growing their own food. Selling eggs. Doing art. Daycare. Teaching/tutoring others for pay. Shiftwork.

You don't have to "buy a pricey curriculum" either.

Here's a link to an article on a hs'ing site. I hesitate to post it because it's a rather "conservative website" so I don't really ascribe to everything they say, but this particular piece seemed timely - though it's not *really* about hs'ing at all, but about "formalized learning" for preschoolers. Yeah, I know your daughter's in K but - well it's an interesting read - this is the part that made me think of you - (though the rest is pretty good, too):

". . . Concerns over our educational system, fueled by our students’ poor performance in international comparisons of achievement, have reinvigorated the call for early academic instruction as a remedy for inadequate teaching later on. All too many kindergarten teachers are under pressure to teach their children numbers and letters and to administer standardized tests. In some kindergartens, children are even given homework in addition to the work sheets they must fill out during class time. In a developmentally appropriate classroom, children are busy taking care of plants and animals, experimenting with sand and water, drawing and painting, listening to songs and stories, and engaging in dramatic play. It is hard to believe that these young children learn more from work sheets than they do from engaging in these age-appropriate activities.

In the end, there is no solid research demonstrating that early academic training is superior to (or worse than) the more traditional, hands-on model of early education. Why take the risky step of engaging in formal academic training of the young when we already know what works? . . ."

http://www.homeeducator.com/FamilyTimes/articles/13-6article5.htm


A last thing on hs'ing - if you're interested at all, get on some hs loops (especially a local one) and just lurk. Read about their lives. Hear what they have to say about their kids, the things they do in a typical day, the activities available in your area. However, BEWARE you're not on a fundie list! lol - there ARE plenty of liberals out there - sometimes you just have to look a little harder.

There are groups online for Buddhists and gifted kids and LD kids and unschoolers and Mensans and Classical Education Models! Heck, there was a HSforKerry group a few years back! Though stereotypes abound, I can tell you that YOUR hs would be exactly what YOU make of it. It can be as structured or free as you want. That's one of the great things about it. Individualized, one-on-one, tailor-made-just-for-your-kid EDUCATION.


OH yeah, I found a link for ya that lists the Charter schools in CA, too.

http://www.charterassociation.org/scriptcontent/regional_map.cfm?activesection=about

[OnionPatch]

9. Well, you certainly make some good points

and I know I've read this same reasoning about learning somewhere before awhile back and agreed with it. But apparently the schools have different ideas. If there were only some other options. Thanks for the charter link, I'll check it out.

I've read some about homeschooling and thought it also made a lot of sense. Homeschooled kids seem to always do so much better and I also agreed that sitting in a classroom with 25 kids your own exact age was not a true introduction to real life. Homeschooled kids seem to respect their elders more and have a lot less qualms about interacting with all different types of people of different ages. They seem less likely to fall prey to peer pressure as well.

I would love to do it but it seems impossible to me. First, I don't feel all that confident about my ability to do it right. I don't have a college degree (although I went for two years) and I'm lousy at math. Second, there is the money issue. We already grow our own food and yes, even the eggs! (I'm thinking a goat for milk and cheese next :) ) But in order to do that we have to have a home with some outdoor space. Sure, maybe I could afford to stay home if we lived in a little apartment but then my daughter would have to put up with a severely depressed mother. I MUST garden to stay sane and I think the rural life is just healthier for raising kids. (The food sure is better anyway!) I've considered the cost of my working but it's not as much as most people. I wear jeans and tennis shoes to work. I only work part-time but make pretty good money. I come home before lunch so we always eat here. Since I come home at lunch, there are no child-care expenses. My car is 13 years old and we don't spend money on fancy grown-up toys, clothes and such. The only expense not working would cancel out is the gasoline.

Now, my mother would tell me I'm playing the "yes-but" game so I'm going to look into it anyway. I'll check out your links. I did notice before when I was investigating that so many homeschoolers are fundies. Isn't it ironic that the conservatives want to homeschool to keep their kids away from "liberal mind-pollution" and we do it to save our kids from traditional, conservative educational methods? Yeesh. Sometimes I wonder if school vouchers aren't a good idea after all although I sure don't trust Republicans to set it up or we'd be getting ripped-off for sure. There sure seems to be a need for more flexibility anyway.

Thanks for all the food for thought and links.

[MountainLaurel]

15. Good points

The issue often isn't laziness, particularly that young. (Kindergartners have homework?!) My brother always had issues finishing his math homework. After screaming and yelling didn't work, my mom actually asked him why he didn't do his homework. It turned out there were two issues going on: He couldn't show his work like most teachers wanted because he did most of it in his head, and he couldn't understand why he had to do 50 practice problems if he understood the concept after only doing 10.

[Dora]

6. I was like your daughter.

From the very beginning, I "struggled" with not doing my schoolwork. I was well into kindergarten when my parents went to the first parent-teacher conference, where the teacher was very surprised to find out that I had been reading for a year (she had never even handed me a book). Fortunately, my parents were quite good at advocating for me. But I was lucky that my mother was a teacher and my father a professor of elementary ed, and most teachers were easily cowed by them. My folks frankly didn't care if I didn't do the work, as long as I was reading and my reading was progressing onto more challenging material, and they made no bones about letting my teachers know that.

Learning is fun when it's meaningful. It's really that simple, but unfortunately most of our schools are not equipped to allow children a meaningful learning experience. If there is a way for you to associate her school work with her "real" life, then I would recommend you try that. You can also demonstrate to her how you and other family members do work simply because it must be done, not because it's fun... ("Here I am washing the dishes. I'd rather be reading the paper, but the dishes are dirty and must be washed. The sooner I get it done, the sooner I can do what I really want." -etc.)

Does your daughter's school have a program for gifted children? If she's "eligible" for that (such unforunate labeling, all children are gifted), then that might help break up the monotony of her studies.

Be prepared - I never outgrew my tendency to not do my work. I turned into a world-class procrastinator. You might consider giving your daughter additional opportunities for learning outside of school - perhaps art/science projects at home, or music lessons, or riddles/puzzles/games. Also, one thing that I did not have that I think would have worked with me was a routine - neither of my parents would say, "It's 4:30: Put down the book, sit down at your desk, and do your homework."

And your threat to take away television? Why threaten? Just do it - seriously. Television is nothing but a tool for advertising, it is not a learning tool. Studies have definitively shown that the more television children watch, the more harm it has intellectually. Of course, you won't be able to effectively remove telvision from your daughter's life without removing it from your own, but it's worth it. Most definitely, do not use television as a reward for anything your daughter might accomplish.

Disclaimer: My son is only 11 months old - so I can't yet practice on my own advice, so please take everything I suggest with a grain of salt. I'm only speaking from my experience as a procrastinating non-doer who was raised by two awesome educators.

[OnionPatch]

8. Thanks, it's good to hear other's experiences

You sound an awful lot like me when I was in school. Unfortunately, unlike your parents, my parents were, well, let's just say "disfunctional" and I was labeled an average student, an underachiever. It wasn't until I'd already made some bad life choices that realized I was actually pretty smart and could have done so much more with my life. I think things could have been different if someone had given me some guidance or help when I was small.

I just don't want to see this sort of thing happen to my daughter so I'm feeling desperate to give her a good start. I do love to read and so I've read lots of books about child care/nurturing but the advice out there is just overwhelming and sometimes extremely conflicting. I have no good role-models to follow, either. There seems to be so many things that are so easy to do wrong. Like the television. She's an only child and fell in love with the TV when I was busy with housework and so on. And her father watches it from the time he gets home from work until bedtime every day! He doesn't watch it during the day but still. I cut back her TV viewing already once and she was so angry about it. She acted like I was murdering her pet kitten or something!! I'm thinking about just canceling the cable and letting her figure out there's nothing on worth watching anymore. Then maybe I won't have to be the mean old witch. I know it's not good for her but try telling her that! I, myself, would go days, weeks even, without turning the TV on. It bores me silly. I was hoping she'd be more like me in that area.

Routine....ahhhh, you may have hit the weak spot. I am one of those people who simply DETEST a forced routine. I find it extremely hard to stick to a schedule with her because I, myself, hate schedules so much. The fact that I was 41 when I had her and very set in my (flexible) ways, makes it even harder for me to change. I realize this though and have been working on it more. It's one of my New Year's resolutions. I'll let you know how it works out.

I had to laugh when I read that your son is still small and you haven't tried out much of what you were telling me. I read gobs of books and had lots of ideas, theories and "perfect" plans for childraising. I thought I would always know just what to do but so many times the theories just didn't work out in practice. :) I hope you have better luck!

[TrogL]

11. Keep an eye out for ADD

There's two kinds - the traditional ADHD "bouncing off the walls" and the more subtle "daydreamer" kind, especially prevelant in girls.

[OnionPatch]

13. Interesting

I hadn't heard of that. I'll have to read about it, thanks.

[OnionPatch]

12. I thought I would follow up

Things have really improved with the whole situation in the last week or so. Today was the big test; I checked back with her teacher to see if she had improved. I knew she was doing much better at home but was worried.....The teacher says she's doing much, much better! :applause:

I had the thought that the whole episode started right after a two-week holiday. She was probably having a hard time adjusting back to her school schedule again. But also, we made some changes just after I first posted so maybe one of them or the combination of everything is having an effect. One thing we did was move her bedtime up so she gets an hour more sleep each night. Then we decided we needed a more regular schedule and started sticking to it for homework, dinner, bath and bedtime and reduced her television viewing. I also gave her extra attention while she was doing her homework and lots of positive feedback. I've been finding ways to make the work a little more fun, not always easy, but effective.

So we tried the positive reinforcement, but we also told her that she was going to lose her television privileges if her teacher told us she was not trying harder to get her classwork done.

The change is amazing. She seems genuinely to be enjoying doing her work lately. Today she told me the teacher complimented her writing in front of the whole class and she seemed really proud. I hope this is a lasting change. Thanks for all the advice and comments. I tried to put some of it into action.

[fight4my3sons]

14. Glad to hear that things are improving!

I know that when I was teaching it was hard that first week back from winter break, on both the students and the teachers :-)

It is nice to hear that your daughter was complimented in front of the class. It must have made her feel great. Positive reinforcement at home and at school and a schedule seem to work well for her. You are doing a great job :thumbsup: I doubt that you will get any more negative reports from her teacher.