Pack dynamics.

[Longhorn]

As I've mentioned before, we have four dogs, three neutered males and one spayed female. The males are Brutus, a nine-year-old dachshund (18 pounds,) Buddy, a five-year-old lab mix (70 pounds,) and Sparky, a three-year-old Rhodesian Ridgeback mix (105 pounds.) The female is Paco, an eight-year-old lab mix (50 pouunds.) We're also taking care of our daughter's pit bull mix, Rowdy (75 pounds.) So we basically have a pack of dogs!

I understand that there's often an "alpha male" in the pack but I've also heard that a female is often the leader of the pack. Sparky seems to be the "alpha male." He is dominating in his behavior but usually very good-natured. But he can get the other dogs to clean his ears and as the biggest, he just forces his way on the others and us. However, Paco can be quite snippy. For example, she'll lay just inside the doggy door and snarl at the dogs trying to come in. Even Sparky and Rowdy will start crying outside the doggy door until I call Paco away, and then they all come trotting in. And she's always kind of snapping at them when they play. She rarely plays with the others and is a bit of a loner as far as the other dogs go.

Yesterday, Sparky and Paco got into it over a bone fragment. After the fight started, Rowdy jumped in, too. I couldn't get them apart until my daughter came up to help. When it was over, Sparky was drooling blood, which we think came from Paco as we saw no injuries on him. Paco had a gash on her head and on her back leg. This is the first time I've ever seen Paco in the middle of a fight. Brutus has been attacked by Sparky before and Rowdy and Buddy haven't always gotten along. Last week, Rowdy got hurt in the backyard. We thought he got hurt trying to climb the fence but now we're wondering if Sparky had attacked him. He needed staples in his head and had a cut ear.

I don't know if these fights are the result of adding Rowdy to the mix or Sparky reaching a certain level of maturity or what? We're also experiencing more "marking" in the house, and these are all housebroken dogs! I'm not going to give them any more "bones of contention," at least while Rowdy is here. I'm not sure it's even Rowdy's fault but it seems that the dynamics of the pack are disrupted. In between these events, they seem to get along fine.

Am I being overly analytical about this pack thing? Any suggestions on how to keep the peace in the family? Rowdy will probably be with us until March. Thanks for your comments!

[LibertyLover]

1. Us too

We recently had a similar problem, and yes it's disruption of the pack dynamics and no, you are not being overly analytical. My husband and I have 5 dogs - 2 greys, 2 whippets and a Siberian Husky. All are male and neutered except for one of the greys who is female and spayed. Believe it or not, the male grey is the alpha and the Siberian, who outweighs him by 20 pounds, is the omega.

Anyway, about a year ago, my husband's daughter from his first marriage ("DSD") moved in with us. In addition to her 4 ferrets and 2 guinea pigs, DSD bought a 3 month old female Belgian Terverian (sp?) puppy. Our gang, who generally get along just fine with the occasional squabble over a toy or who gets to sit on the couch next to mom and dad, did ok at first. It was a puppy after all. In fact, our grey bitch mothered her very nicely and our younger whippet had a blast playing with her. But as the Belgian matured things changed. She wanted to challenge our bitch for dominance - oh yeah, that was going to happen - and got slapped down rather badly. Then she challenged the male grey - and got slapped down even worse. Neither slap down resulted in a vet trip, but it was close. Finally, she turned on the younger whippet and started beating up on him with her 30 pound weight advantage. But he gave as good as he got and she had to stop. So in her final move for a place, she went after my 2 year old daughter. DSD saw the whole thing as it happened right in front of her. My toddler wasn't badly hurt, but was frightened. However we told DSD she had to remove her dog from our house immediately. It wasn't as horrible as it sounds - she was a week or two away from closing on her own house. The Belgian is now in her own house and is a loving dog once again, although my daughter still remembers and calls her bad.

As for keeping the peace, I'm afraid that the only thing I can suggest is to keep Rowdy as separated as you can from your dogs until he leaves. I wish I had a more creative solution.

[Longhorn]

4. Thanks for sharing your story.

While Rowdy hasn't been the instigator, I'm wondering if Sparky feels threatened by him. When Rowdy has stayed with us in the past, it was always he and Buddy who didn't get along but they seem to be fine now.

I'm not sure if I can keep them separate but I'm going to watch for ways to minimize disruptions, such as keeping the bones out of it!

[roguevalley]

23. We have five daschsies, twins at ten, another ten year old who

though very gentle is the boss, an eight year old on meds for fighting and a six year old baby. Don't underestimate the pack thing. ALL of you, everyone in your house figures into it.

If you maintain your dominance as the owner, they will defer to you. My boys are all neutered, had to because of the dom issue and they all defer to me. Getting Pippin on meds, a separation anxiety tab was the best thing we ever did.

[Longhorn]

24. I've been learning a lot about this pack thing

by watching The Dog Whisperer on National Geographic that someone here told me about. It's very interesting and we've been using some of the techniques with Sparky.

Aren't dachshunds fun? Lots of personality, that's for sure. There's a small town just south of Austin that has the Weiner Dog Races every year, a really big event. I've never taken mine -- he'd never stay focused enough to run to me -- but I'd like to go sometime. They featured it last spring on CBS Sunday Morning. :D

[Minimus]

2. I am very familiar with it too. I had 3 JRTs -Long but interesting story:

I had Sonic (RIP 12/1/04) neutered male then got Frolic, now 3 who was spayed. They always got along just fine. Since Sonic was getting older and sick he was not playful enough so we decided to get another puppy so Frolic would have a playmate.

Well Frolic obviously did not want a playmate because she got into it with Mimic (now 9 months old) several times. We got Mimic spayed as soon as possible to hopefully prevent anymore fights. It got worse and worse as Mimic got bigger she would not submit to Frolic, and boy did that make Frolic mad. They would play together 99% of the time, wrestling and playing with their toys, but if something special, like food, a treat,a tennis ball (Frolic's favorite toy) was put in the mix, Frolic would get very aggressive toward Mimic and attack her.

Frolic's attacks sent us to the Vet several times, mostly just mouth wounds treated with antibiotics. On one occasion I had to take my husband to the walk in clinic cause he was breaking up their fight and was bit (by Frolic) on the meaty part of the palm. He had to get a tetanus shot and get the wound cleaned and take an antibiotic.

Well the last blow up was the mother of all. It was early in the morning one Saturday about 5 AM, I was still in bed (with Sonic), my husband was up making coffee and Frolic and Mimic were playing at his feet. All of a sudden they got into a ferocious fight. I was awakened by my husband's scream (because he was too dumb to learn from his first lesson), he reached down and tried to separate them and he GOT HIS FINGER BIT OFF to the first knuckle, left hand, ring finger. Well it was barely hanging on by a little piece of skin, but the bone was severed.

I grabbed Mimic and crated her, I put Frolic outside and Sonic behind a gate. There was blood everywhere and I freaked out. I gave my husband a towel and he is sitting on the floor holding his finger, telling me to get dressed so I can drive him to the ER. I'm so upset I said there is no way I can drive, I called 911, they told me to make sure he just kept pressure on it. The next thing I know there is an EMT, a firetruck, another EMT in his own car, and a sheriff coming into my house.

While they are bandaging my husbands finger the sheriff is asking questions because a report has to be filed with a dog bite. All my husband can do is say "you are not taking my dog" (Frolic is his favorite). The sheriff assured us that animal control would follow up and since it was a bite involving the owner nothing would happen, just confirmation of rabies vaccinations.

So the EMT takes my husband to the ER, they have to call in a hand specialist. They took him up to the OR and reattached his finger in a two hour surgery. The put a pin in it and stitched it all around. The surgeon showed me the xray and said that was a serious bite. The bone above the knuckle was severed and crushed.

The hospital released my husband that afternoon and when we get home I go to let Mimic out of her crate and she is covered in blood. Frolic had managed to also wound her neck. I of course freaked out again, because I felt guilty for putting her in the crate without checking her over, but I did have to attend to my husband's situation. Anyway, my doped up husband held her while I drove to the Emergency Vet. Mimic had to have surgery, have a drainage tube put in her neck and stay the night. BIG vet bill there.

We took Frolic to a Behavior Specialist Vet. We thought if she was aggressive we would have to put her down. He tested her for aggressive behavior but she does not display aggression toward people, she lets you take food away, and minds very well, etc. She just hates Mimic.

Well to sum it all up, after that we kept them totally separated. We had gates all over the house (that was a pain) but we were just too nervous. Mimic healed. My husband got the pin and stitches out and is even getting some feeling back to the tip.

I had to have Sonic put to sleep on Dec 1, my husband moved out on Jan 1 and took Frolic with him. So now it is just Mimic and me.

I miss Sonic and Frolic, although I can still see Frolic. I'm not sure if I miss my husband, but I'm glad his finger is better. What a coincidence it was his ring finger and now he can't wear his wedding band, huh?

Mimic is happy there are no more gates and she has run of the house, but at times she gets a wistful look in her eyes, like she really would love a playmate.

The End.

[Longhorn]

5. Oh, my, you've been through so much!

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your story. What an experience that must have been. I'm glad your husband and Mimic recovered from their wounds. Who would have thought that a small dog could nearly bite off your husband's finger?!!

Rowdy is such a sweet dog, though he can look menacing to the UPS driver! But he's never been the one starting the fights, that we can tell. Still, if Sparky feels he has to prove something, it's just as well that Rowdy will be moving to his own place soon.

Thanks again. I'm keeping you in my thoughts. :hug:

[NMDemDist2]

3. you need to be the "alpha" but they will still need to settle the

hierarchy amongst themselves. If you make it very clear that the Alpha {you} won't accept fights, it will help

good luck, I have always had a big "pack" but they never fight. If any of them start to act "froggy" I am all over them ASAP and it usually doesn't happen again (or at least for a long time)

[Longhorn]

6. I've read a little about being the "alpha."

Something about looking intently in their eyes -- but I can't remember the rest. If you have any suggestions, I'm listening! I have managed to train him to sit before he gets his meals and treats, to go to the pen area, and to stay off my bed and furniture (though he sneaks on when we're not home.) But I know he could be better trained.

We don't tolerate the fights or any snarling or snapping but sometimes they just happen in an instant with no warning. But we've gotten a little better at recognizing situations that might lead to a fight. I didn't think the bone was a problem because there are little bones all over this house -- but I guess that doesn't matter if they all want the same bone! So every bone I find, I'm throwing in the trash. I give them rawhide chews but they devour them fairly quickly with no leftovers and always run to their own spot to chew on them.

I'll try to be more aware -- not making too much of a fuss over Rowdy so the others don't get jealous and watching for contentious situations. Thanks!

[RadicalMom]

7. In our house, it's the rawhides that we don't dare give them any more..

What ordeals you've all been through! Ours haven't been as bad, but we have had one or two stitch-requiring wounds that we couldn't tell if they were from the dominant male dog or snagging on a rose bush. Interesting coincidence since I intended to pose a question here tonight, before I found your posts. First, though, let me stress that humans have to teach themselves to NEVER try to break up a dog fight with their own bodies. Never. The fight will usually not be broken, but the human will be. Yelling, squirting them with a hose, and throwing objects at them that won't actually hurt them and especially if they make noise can get their attention off the fight, and break it. I like large stuffed animals and lightweight soft Rubbermaid type small garbage cans are great for large dogs. Again, they will not actually hurt them, just startle them and then they try to figure out where in outer space that came from.

Now my question is, and in the cases you just discussed I fear I have my answer, when you have an alpha male(Dusty) who is not neutered (he is never allowed loose, ever, and rarely leaves the block wall fenced property) who is aggressive and territorial with the neutered older more submissive but much larger dog(Sparky, I have a Sparky, too)will any of alpha's behavior settle down if we neuter him? My other dogs have been altered, but when Dusty was at the optimum age for this, I had just worked briefly for a vet and seen more than one neutering surgery where the dog didn't stay fully under the anesthesia, and moaned through the procedure. (I decided for this and other reasons that this was a bad vet)I couldn't stand to do it to him. I still don't want to. If I felt pretty sure the behavior - the dominance and the marking, which both housebroken males do- I would consider it. He's five now and his pattern and Sparky's are pretty well established. In fact Sparky used to mark in the house once in a while before the other male joined us, at five weeks of Dusty was clearly the alpha dog from the minute he arrived, amd struggled to get his puppy paws up on the big guys back to dominate even at that age. We'd stop him, but Sparky didn't, so Dusty didn't change his behavior. I've always been good with animals, and training for many situations, but I'm not sure what to do here. He is never aggressive with people. Thoughts?

[Longhorn]

8. Well, it happened again.

This time, poor Rowdy got the worst of the injuries. He spent the night at the vet's office so they could sedate him and suture the lacerations on his neck and back quarters. He's also on antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs.

I kept the dogs separated today and our oldest daughter, Rowdy's owner, is coming to get him after work. She thinks he can stay with her until she moves to Colorado. We'll miss him but this is the third fight in a month and he was involved in all of them, though I don't think he started any of them. Whatever our daughter works out has to be better than this situation! :(

[luzdeluna]

9. Hi there...I work with dogs for a living ...

here are some suggestions.

>


You are correct to take away the "high value" toys such as raw hides and chewies. When you are dealing with two or more dogs it is always safer to give only "low value" things like rubber balls.

Make sure when you give treats or pets to your dogs you call the receiving dog by name. Make it clear to the other dogs that you are feeding or petting their pack mate and you will call for them at their turn.

Never put your hands into the middle of a dog fight. One of the trainers I work with lost a finger to his own loving and friendly dog who was in a tussle with another nice dog.

If you have to break up a fight use a wet towel, a bucket of water or (if you have enough people) grab their back legs and pull them apart.

My own secret weapon is Smelling Salts. You can buy them in capsules at the drug store and I keep them in a tin in my pocket. If I'm faced with a serious fight I grab a handful and squeeze hard while I put it in their faces. It will stop them right away without doing any permanent damage to you or the dogs.

All dog fights are not based solely in an Alpha challenge. There are lots of different triggers that can cause aggression and a good behaviorist can see the nuances in the way the dog stand or look at each other before the fight starts. Sometimes the problem dog seems like the victim to the casual observer.

It's also a really good idea to praise you animals when they are getting along. Telling them they are doing good when they are just sitting around peacefully. Make sure it's clear to them what being good together is.


Be careful please!!!!!!!! Your dogs need you in one piece and we like you!

ldl

[SW FL Dem]

11. Is that a cairn in your sig line?

I've lived with cairns all my life and currently have 3 so I am well versed in dealing with pack behavior.

[luzdeluna]

14. Henry the Cairn...

...is my partner and best friend.



he was an adoption (like all my pets always have been) but he was only a year and a half when his first family dropped him off at the vets to be put down.

Now he is four and a half and with me in his forever home.

He is my first Terrier and I just love him and his Terrier ways.

How about your guys????


LDL

[SW FL Dem]

15. Henry is adorable

I love the wheaton boys! My Bowler (I didn't name him) is one of the sweetest dogs I've ever met. He comes from a breeder friend of mine, he was a former show dog who hated the ring so we adopted him when he was 2 1/2. He is now almost 7. In my pic above Bowler is in the middle.

To the left of Bowler is my Libby who is a rescue. She came to us in 2003 as a foster with serious medical issues. My son fell in love with her so she is here to stay. Since we don't know Libby's birthday, we celebrate on the day that her adoption was finalized. Libby's 8th birthday was in December. Libby is just a love, she had a rough life and is so grateful for any attention

Our third cairn, Kelsey, is the youngest (5), but she has been with us the longest. We got Kelsey as a puppy from a reputable breeder. She is the most energetic of the bunch, she'll chase a tennis ball until she literally drops. If we don't pay attention to her, she has learned to put the tennis ball under a chest in the living room and then cry until someone comes and gets it for her.

I am definitely a terrier person. I love their feisty independence and spunky attitude. All of my cairns talk and let me know when they are happy as well as when they aren't. I can't imagine my life without a cairn or two.

[luzdeluna]

16. My favorite Cairn/Westie web site

http://www.terrierclub.com/terrwin.htm

ldl

[SW FL Dem]

17. LOL - I know that site

Several of my cairn friends have had their dogs in the monthly photo contest and my Kelsey is listed - her pic is just a few (5) years old. I guess I should post my others there someday.

[mopinko]

19. i'm sorta new to terriers

i have almost exclusively had big dogs. but i live in an old house in a big city, and keep birds. this = mice. i am allergic to cats, so i got a rat terrier. she is a great pet, but not a real hard worker. so i decided to get her a partner, and ended up adding 2 sisters.

(hope this pic stays, you never know with this site.)
zipper is 5, and rags and socks are 2. they have been such a handful. i bought them sight unseen. (long stupid story) they flew here from way southern ohio. they were 4 months old, and i'm pretty sure had spent the whole time in the yard with the pack. they were traumatized by the plane ride, and afraid of everything. it has been a long road.
they are finally coming around, thinking and acting like terriers are supposed to. i really love them. but they are a handful.

[luzdeluna]

21. Working Terriers

My Henry goes to work everyday. Mostly training work and company for our doggie clients.

But he is the worlds best ratter! He'll zig zag five acres of pasture following moles under ground. When they surface he makes very short work of them.

Back home in town we have no mice in the house or squirrels in the yard.

Henry was a rescue so he takes his jobs seriously!

I'm sure if he could drive he'd be at your house tomorrow morning to show your ratters how a pro does it. (No more mice and you don't have to deal with the remains)

He is also trained to be polite to caged birds.

ldl

[mopinko]

22. polite to caged birds

yeah this is a battle. they kinda get it, but i wouldn't trust them for a second.
it one of the things that is bred into rats, tho. they are farm dogs, and can't be eatin the chickens. the older one is fine. in fact, my daughter had a budgie that was a spoiled brat, and used to bite her on the nose.

[Longhorn]

12. Thanks for the excellent advice!

It is very helpful and I read it to my husband as well. We quickly figured out that yelling and kicking doesn't stop the fight! We weren't home for the last one -- it was a jealousy issue over our daughter. She's Rowdy's "aunt" and I think Rowdy associated her with his owner, who he really misses. So when Buddy came on the scene for some attention, Rowdy started growling. I think my husband or I would have been able to nip that in the bud but our daughter didn't realize how risky it was. I'm glad she knew better than to try to reach in and stop it. I had heard about throwing water on them but she didn't know to do that. I like the smelling salts idea, too!

Thanks again for taking the time to share! It's good to have you on DU and in this group! :hi:

[mopinko]

10. this is a big issue with huskies, especially

there is some good stuff here.

http://www.husky-petlove.com/husky_alpha_training.html

i haven't read these guys stuff, but my daughter likes them.

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/

i have 3 terriers, and they mostly are fine. 2 are sisters, and are like 2 halves of the same dog. the older one is a little bitchy. but she catches hell from me if she starts up. i do try to put some of this stuff into practice. dogs notice those little things.
when they get into it over a bone, i will take it away and keep it for a while. then i will give it to the bottom dog, and let her sit right by me to chew it.
you can do a lot with feeding time. i make bully dog wait until the others are done, and always, always eat something myself, first.
i am a pretty mean big dog.

[Longhorn]

13. Those are some great sites

and I found them quite helpful! I'm going to start following some of that advice to help keep the dogs in their place, especially Sparky. I realized that I don't use their names first when I give them commands and I like the idea of praising them for being good, just out of the blue. I used to change up the feeding order to be "fair" but I'm going to start feeding the littlest one first and Sparky last and not feel a bit guilty about it! :D

Is it a good sign that Sparky is now lying next to me (he's on the floor, I'm sitting on the edge of my bed) with his head on my foot? Is he subordinating himself to me or showing his mastery by using my foot as a pillow? ;)

[mopinko]

18. Is he subordinating himself

i think he is just sucking up. don't know how high up the totem pole that puts you.
it is funny the things that go into being the top dog. not letting them go through the door first is my favorite. hard for me, as i have little dogs, and they are kinda sneaky weasels who zoom everywhere they go. i make it a point often enough, tho.
where do they sleep? you could elevate the little one by letting him/her sleep with you. you are also the boss if you just make them sleep where you want them to. i saw a big jump in my status when my crazy sisters went from the crate to sleeping on the floor at the foot of my bed.

[Longhorn]

20. From what you've discussed,

I think we're doing most things right with the four that are ours. And if we were to keep our daughter's dog (which she would never allow!) we'd get them all in line eventually. But your suggestions are good and make me think twice about some things we do.

We did kick them out of our bed awhile back, mainly due to comfort issues. I occasionally allow them on my bed in the morning when I'm lounging with my laptop, but I make it clear that it is at my discretion. I can't let the little one sleep with us as he has been known to pee in the bed if we nudge him and he thinks we're going to make him leave. But he's the only one allowed to be a lap dog, so that probably helps his status.

Anyway, thanks again for all the info! You've given me much to think about and explore! :yourock: