Help you guys, I'm trying to adopt a dog & need some legal advice

[CountAllVotes]

:hi:

I really need some help from my friends here on the DU. As many know, I lost my dog before the New Year and I've been trying to find another one to adopt. After much effort it seems I have found one that is about 4 years old and is a Sheltie (same as my old dog was).

The seller is selling this female dog because she has possibly "mild hip dysplasia" - not certain. The dog has had one litter of pups and after that the vet checked her and made this diagnosis and the dog was spayed after that.

Now the dog is looking for a new home to be a "couch potato" I was told.

The owner sent me a very long contract to sign. Parts of it seemed ok to me, other parts I wasn't too keen on, like the part saying that if I sell the dog or take it to a rescue or a shelter, I would be fined $2,000. I'd have to check with the original owner first and ship the dog back to where the owner lives which is quite a long distance (about 3500 miles) if I can no longer keep the dog.

I don't plan to do this (get rid of the new dog), but things happen in life and one just never knows.

The contract gives me just 72 hrs. from when I pick the dog up to have it checked by a vet for health purposes. If anything is found wrong I get back my money for the dog ($100) but must pay to return the dog (another $250++ I suspect plus the loss I'd take on the purchase of a crate to ship the dog as well).

I have not signed anything yet as there were no total amounts specified on the contract, just a place for me to sign it; the rest to be filled in later by the seller (?).

Does anyone hear have any experience with situations like this? If so please let me know. I didn't know where else to turn for some honest thoughts and opinions, so I came here to ask my questions.

Thanks so much friends! :D

CountAllVotes

[Tab]

1. $2000 for a 4-yr old dog?

It's not uncommon for breeders that care about dogs to require that you return the dog to them (or at least, offer it back) if you don't want to keep it, but I guess there's no real way to enforce it, other than a civil suit, but I'm not sure I'd sign something with a provision that I could be fined $2000. It doesn't cost that much to ship a dog. At most I'd agree to shipping the dog back to the breeder/current owner, and footing the cost for that. If the owner refuses the dog, then I'm free to do what I want with it.

I'm assuming this person breeds for show, because otherwise there's no reason to sell a dog for mild hip dysplasia. With a mild hip dysplasia you have a pet quality dog - you can't show it for breed, and you wouldn't want to breed it, but it's probably a perfectly fine dog otherwise.

Contracts are negotiable - if you don't want to be held to certain clauses, refuse them, and see if the owner will adjust the contract. As much as I hate to say so, particularly if you've been looking for one, you should be willing to walk away from the deal. Many breeders are valid, but there's a goodly helping of nutcases out there too.

I sure as hell wouldn't sign anything that had blank spots "to be filled in later".

[CountAllVotes]

3. thanks

Luckily (thanks to both of you btw) I was able to resolve this situation.

The $2,000 is a fine for dumping the dog or selling it to someone else to make money.

The dog is perfectly ok. The reason she has this stipulation as she has had some of her dogs end up in shelters or found out they had been dumped, hence the $2,000 fine clause.

If I decide I cannot keep the dog, she will take it back but I'd have to pay to ship it back which would be about $150. That is ok with me.

Let's hope for the best as I was able to fill in the blanks after talking to her on the forms she has. So let's just hope it ends up to be a perfectly fine pet. This is a breeder and that is exactly why she is selling the dog.

*whew* (I was getting needlessly freaked out ... we had a brief discussion about the "haves" in our society and I knew right then she was honest and not a nut and I've seen these types, oh yes).

[IndyOp]

2. No go. I would ask her to redo the contract -

It must be complete, must be signed by the seller when it is sent to you so that you can sign it, make a copy for yourself and return it. Have her remove the $2000 fine - that is ridiculous, IMO.

The vet visit within 72 hrs is not completely unreasonable, though 1 week seems more reasonable. She should send the vet records she has about the hip dysplasia so that your vet can examine the dog and assess whether the other vet's diagnosis was reasonable. If so and you decide you don't want the dog then you should pay for 1/2 the cost of transport. If your vet thinks, based on seeing the vet records and the dog, that the seller was lying about the extent of the dysplasia then you should pay nothing.

It would help if you knew more about the seller from past customers -

One of the best people around here to ask about this is Lorien. Lorien's cat Oberon was from a breeder of show-quality animals. Oberon had a little 'rust' in his coat, but was otherwise healthy, and Lorien bought him for the 'pet-quality' price.

[radfringe]

4. 72 hours seems a wee-bit short

our greyhound rescue group allows up to 60 days to have dog spayed/neutered after adoption

we do recommend vet visit within a couple of weeks to get the dog established as a patient - but don't require that

all our dogs come with their records, and have been checked out before they arrive at our organization

have you checked out the breeder? My folks ran into a problem with their dacshund - paid $400 for what they were told was a 1-year old, good health etc. They were also told he was AKC registered (had the paper and everything)

took him to vet a couple of weeks after adopting to get him checked out and neutered. turns out the dog is at least 3-4 years old, had psorisis on the ears and a a case of ear mites soooo bad he needed shots to deal with them. And as far as AKC papers - they were bogus - folks checked with AKC and they have no record of the dog or breeder

dog is fine and dandy now - but my folks are PO'd and making a big stink through Attorney General office and local humane shelter

[auburngrad82]

5. I'd keep looking

Our group requires that you give the dog back if you can't keep the dog for any reason because we don't want the dog to end up in a kill shelter. But we don't fine anyone and I'm not even sure that's legal.

As far as the health issues, there are plenty of animals available out there who are perfectly healthy and who need homes.

Is this a breeder or a rescue?




Liberal bumper stickers

[CountAllVotes]

6. more info.

I've managed to resolve this whole thing and oddly, I found the person that owns the sibling to this dog not living too far from where I live (!). This person has had the dog for about 1 year. It went back to this breeder because the person that had originally purchased it got sick and could no longer care for it. It was returned to her in apparently very rough/abused shape, hence the $2,000 fine clause.

After speaking with her at length about this and telling her what I have set up for my pets in case something happens to me (sudden death) the local animal no-kill shelter will come to my house as they have the keys and will collect all animals in the home and will care for them and try to find homes for them for the rest of their lives. In the case of the dog, they would contact her and it would be shipped back to her at my expense. I don't care about this being I'll be dead anyway. I sent her a link to the no-kill shelter here where I live and she was very impressed (they actually happen to have a "happy endings" story on their website about an old Sheltie they rescued and found a home for (a tear jerker of a story and wow, it really got her and actually decided to send them a small donation after reading the story!).

She told me a few horror stories and in fact was gone since I last posted as she drove over 1,000 miles to pick-up another dog she'd adopted out that wasn't being cared for properly and she went to go pick it up at her own expense and they was no clause in that contract she had with this person to have it required to be returned if it couldn't be cared for properly. So, it was a real bummer for her and a costly one at that due to the driving expense and the cost of two nights staying in a motel. :(

As for the dog, I checked with my vet and they can see it as soon as I get home with it. She will have a full exam with all vet records in with the dog upon arrival and I'll get back home in time to have it checked out by my own vet within the 72 hrs. time period (weekends don't count).

So, at this point, I'm not concerned. We talked about the hip problem which the dog shows no signs or symptoms of. My other Sheltie had a hip problem too, likely the same type of problem it sounds like to me. As he got older he began to limp and the problem tended to get worse when it was very cold outside or when he got overweight.

The worst thing that could happen is that the dog is sick and I'll get some of my money back but not all of it. This whole deal does not involve a lot of money, only the cost that she paid to have the dog spayed and the shipping cost to me (so approx. $300 total).

Being I was able to speak with the person that has the sibling to this dog (and he is very happy with the dog he got from this breeder and had only very good things to say about the breeder and we actually exchanged pictures via email to compare the two and we both decided they looked alike and I was able to contact him via telephone and personally speak with him). He told me about the condition of the dog was in before he got it from her. He said it was, "Just horrible and very cruel!" That same dog is now just fine in his new home (he luckily got adopted by a millionaire!). I now feel ok about this breeder that I will be getting the dog from after I spoke with him.

She has that $2,000 fine thing in there for a good reason - she doesn't want anything cruel to happen to any of her dogs and figures it will discourage and/or deter people that might say they wish to adopt one of her dogs but they don't really plan to care for the animal properly (in the case of Shelties, the require persistent grooming and/or a groomer which many people don't care to do because of the time and/or cost involved). It also states that this contract is only valid in the state where she resides, so good luck collecting on it is what I thought. :think:

I told her re: the hip thing that if it got really bad, I might opt to have the dog put down should it get so serious and painful to the animal that it could require surgery which might not be at all practical given the age of the dog.

She had no problem with this and just said to me, "It will be your dog and you can do what you think is best". She also required references from me to the vet I now have, the groomer and a personal reference as well. So, I really do believe she is being very cautious and I really can't say I blame her as she is obviously a true animal lover I can tell (she also has another breed of dog now (she is not breeding these, just caring for them for the rest of their lives). She agreed to take these dogs from her late friend that knew she was going to die and was worried about her dogs and this breeder agreed to take and care for them.

This same breeder has just quite recently has really gotten into cats and has now has five of them at present and she wants more cats now too as she has 4 acres of land and they are needed greatly but now she's turned into a "cat person" as well. :)

So that is the story. I'll keep you posted on this situation. I believe the dog will be shipped within the next week. So let's hope it works out as I really can't take anymore heartbreak after what happened with the recent death of my old Sheltie.

and, oh yes (please, help again!) the dog is micro-chipped (can these chips be removed?). I also need to know how does one change the owner on a microchip (does anyone happen to know?) if it cannot be removed.

Thanks again everyone for your great help, comments, etc.!

CountAllVotes

[wildeyed]

7. Congratulations!

I hope this all works out for you. I know you have been thinking about this for awhile.

As far as changing the chip info, just have the breeder contact the chip company with your contact info.

[CountAllVotes]

8. yes, I hope she remembers ...

That might be a problem. Maybe the other guy with the brother will know the company. Seems she has done business with many different ones. Thanks for the :thumbsup: on this! :D

[IndyOp]

9. Glad to hear you got more info about the breeder -

It sounds as if she is being cautious, though I still feel as if the $2000 return fee is not reasonable. If the return is the result of event(s) unforeseeable and beyond your control and the dog has been very well cared for during its time in your home, then I think the fee is not acceptable. If it is only enforceable in her state - then it sounds like a moot point.

If she doesn't remember which company she bought the chip from, maybe your vet could scan the number and use it to determine which company made the chip. You might still need her to contact them to verify the transfer to you, but it should be doable.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your new puppy!

:-)

[CountAllVotes]

10. hi!

I think I've put confusion on this. There is no charge for returning the dog at any time. If I cannot keep the dog, I simply send it back to her and that is the end of it (I would have to pay for this however).

The $2,000 fine is if she were to find out I sold the dog to someone or if I took it to a shelter (and most if not all of the shelters where I live don't take anything but stray animals so it is a rather mute point as taking it to a shelter is not an option).

Being the dog is microchipped, they can easily trace it to me and then to her I guess once the chip is fixed, I'll ask the vet about this. Thanks for that piece of info. btw - if she cannot remember the company, my vet can figure it out, you are right! Thanks again so much for that tip! :)

In any event, I would never do such a thing as to dump the dog somewhere or sell it to someone else, I would ship it back to her as I have agreed to do should the need arise.

If I want to return the dog I can at any time whatsoever - no fine involved. That is actually one of the main reasons I went for this deal because it can be very difficult to have to give away or find a new home for any dog, especially one with a problem and at this age should such a need arise which hopefully it will not. Many of the places I researched had no option to return the dog after purchase, satisfied or not.

I hope that clarifies the $2,000.00 situation better.

Thanks again for the microchip tip!

[IndyOp]

11. Okay! She sounds like a very good breeder, then. ;-) (n/t)

[IndyOp]

12. When is your new Sheltie arriving? Pics please! ;-) (n/t)

:hi:

[CountAllVotes]

13. I'll be sure to send you some

Thanks for the support you guys.

Now I'm in the wondering stage this morning *again*. I have a rather old very aloof cat that I rarely see. Last night she jumped on my bed and I woke up a few hours later and she had her head on my hand. This has never happened in the 11+ years I've had her.

Prior to this phenomenal event, I had picked her up and shown her a photograph of the Sheltie we are to get soon. The Sheltie looks sad I think and mentioned this to the breeder in fact and the breeder said, "You are right, I do not think she is happy here as there are so many animals/people/kids around."

My cat studied the image on my large 17" monitor for a minute or so. It was after this that she became my new "best friend" after 11+ years. She knows. Maybe she's just trying to let me know that she loves me, I don't know. Very odd at best.

In any event, I'll keep you posted.

[radfringe]

14. could be your cat

misses having a buddy around

I know of several people who have lost one pet, and the remaining pet goes into a funk - but perks up when a new buddy is introduced

[wildeyed]

15. My dog got really sad after our other dog passed.

He was so happy when we showed up with Sammy, our new rescue dog. Walked up to him and gave him a kiss 2 minutes after he walked in the door. I was thrilled. I was afraid there would be dominance issues with two adult male dogs, but nary a growl or whimper occurred. We all still miss Ruby, but Sam cheered us up, too.

[CountAllVotes]

17. yes she was and still is very sad about the loss

Maybe she is hoping for a new friend. They used to kiss each other every day and several times a day at that. She lays in the hall where the old Sheltie used to sleep and rolls around there and moans. I think she misses him a lot.

We'll see how it all goes! I'm supposed to be leaving on towards the end of this week to pick up her new friend. :)

[wildeyed]

16. Do some research on the best way to introduce a new dog to your household

and especially your cat. I think you are supposed to take the dog for a walk before you bring him inside to begin bonding. I am not sure what the protocol is for introducing a new dog to a cat, but I would assume that you need to be very firm that chasing and fighting are not allowed.

[CountAllVotes]

18. luckily that kind of thing never happens around here

Having two aloof cats, they tend to hide and come out when they feel like it is "safe". If this dog is somewhat timid and apparently an "old lady" I was told, it could be the perfect match for her (one old lady with another old lady). I specifically looked for a spayed older female dog because I knew she'd fit in easier than a male or a puppy would being I do have the other cat which is a neutered male Siamese type of cat as well that I got from the local no-kill shelter several years ago that I mention. Neither of the cats are purebreds (well I know the old one isn't, but the male could be?). I think the male could be a purebred Flame Point Siamese cat as he is really beautiful and also really HUGE but also he is really shy and timid himself and not a fighter on any level.

Let's hope for the best. :)

[radfringe]

19. we also foster greyhounds

so introducing a new arrival to the residents is always fun

we do a meet and greet OUTSIDE between the foster and our 3 resident dogs - this avoids territorial spats, and they all get a treat when they come inside

as far as introducing our 5 cats (yeah we have 5 cats - I never said we were sane) - ennywhoo - we let the cats introduce themselves on their own terms. the livingroom is gated off from the dogs to give the cats a "safe place" should they need one, and the foster greyhound is muzzled until we feel he/she is ok with the cats.

when we are at work, the foster greyhound is crated - for the most part this only lasts a few days - depends on how comfortable we feel that we can trust the foster not to eat things or get into trouble when unsupervised

when we are home the foster is out and about with us, and depending on "cat issues" the foster is not muzzled. We've fostered 4 greyhounds in the past year or so and haven't had a problem with any of them getting along with our other dogs or cats.