Please read this if you feed or recommend dry food for cats.

[AirmensMom]

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
By Lisa A. Pierson, DVM
http://www.catinfo.org

Diet is the brick and mortar of health. This web page lays out some often-ignored principles of feline nutrition and explains why cats have a better chance at optimal health if they are fed a quality canned food diet instead of dry kibble. Putting a little thought into what you feed your cat(s) can pay big dividends over their lifetime and very possibly help them avoid serious, painful and costly illnesses. An increasing number of American Veterinary Medical Association members, including board-certified veterinary nutritionists, are now strongly recommending the feeding of canned food instead of dry kibble.

<snip>

Diabetes: Diabetes is a very serious – and difficult to manage – disease that is very common in cats. Why is it so common? The species-inappropriate high level of carbohydrates in dry food wreaks havoc on the blood sugar level of an obligate carnivore. The blood sugar level rises significantly upon ingestion of dry food. With chronic hyperglycemia (high blood sugar) the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas down-regulate, or “burn out,” leading to diabetes.

<snip>

Kidney Failure: Kidney disease is probably the leading cause of mortality in the cat. It is troubling to think about the role that chronic dehydration may play in feline kidney failure. And remember, cats are chronically dehydrated when they are on a diet of predominantly dry food. The prescription dry 'renal diets' such as Science Diet k/d - which is commonly prescribed by veterinarians - contain only a small amount of moisture leaving your cat in a less than optimal state of water balance. I must say that I find it truly amazing when I hear about the very large numbers of cats receiving subcutaneous fluids while being maintained on a diet of dry food. This is extremely illogical and every attempt should be made to get these cats on a diet that contains a higher moisture content.

<snip>

Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD): IBD is thought to be a common cause of vomiting and diarrhea in the cat. There are many unanswered questions with respect to this disease process, but it seems logical to start to “treat” a gastrointestinal problem in the cat with a species-appropriate diet. Too often these cats are treated with a high level of steroids and a so-called “prescription” grain-laden, dry food diet. I feel very strongly that this common therapeutic regimen needs to be re-evaluated. There are an impressive number of anecdotal reports of cats that were terribly ill with IBD exhibiting dramatic improvement when ALL dry food was removed from their diet. Taking it even one step further, there are many reports of cats with IBD that improved tremendously on a balanced, grainless, raw-meat diet without any vegetables added. (See www.catnutrition.org for more information.)

<snip>

Obesity: Obesity is an extremely common and very serious health problem in cats. For instance, overweight cats are four times more likely to develop diabetes than cats that are at an optimal weight. Obligate carnivores are designed to meet their energy needs with a high protein, moderate fat diet with little to no carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are minimally used for energy and those that are not used are converted to and stored as fat. The so-called “light” diets that are on the market have targeted the fat content as the nutrient to be decreased, but in doing so, the pet food manufacturers have increased the grain fraction, leading to a higher level of carbohydrates. Hence, many overweight cats eating these diets are still obese. These "light" products are among the most species-inappropriate, unhealthy diets available to cat caretakers. Many caretakers feed very small amounts of these diets hoping that their cat will lose weight but feeding a small amount of a diet that is inappropriate for the species is NOT the answer! The caretaker simply ends up with a crabby, overweight cat.

<snip>

This website is a goldmine of information for those who are interested in feeding appropriate food to your cats and improving their health. I can't begin to cover it in this post, so I hope you'll go there and click on all the links. There is a very good section on the main page on how to read pet food ingredients labels.

There is also an excellent letter to veterinary professionals at www.catnutrition.org/vetletter.html that is worth reading even if you are not a veterinary professional. It includes this endorsement by Dr. Pierson:

I enthusiastically endorse the principles laid out in Anne's letter and strongly urge my veterinary colleagues to consider what it has to say. As a practicing veterinarian whose eyes have been opened in recent years to the illogical practice of feeding a high carbohydrate, water-depleted dry food diet to obligate carnivores, I am increasingly disheartened by many of my colleagues who continue to (at best) disregard or (at worst) ridicule the growing body of scientific data that validates common sense when it comes to feeding carnivores.

-- Lisa Pierson, DVM

I hope you'll find this information helpful. It saved the lives of my two Abys, who were seriously ill with IBD and kidney failure last summer after having been on a dry food diet for 7 and 8 years. They had constant diarrhea and vomiting and were dangerously thin ... and getting thinner. We tried the prescription diet, steroids and antibiotics for the IBD, only to watch them get sicker. (The other two healthy cats actually started to get diarrhea and vomiting after a few weeks on the prescription diet. Scary!) The vet gave us no hope for Satchmo's kidney failure and wouldn't even do a dental on him because he was so sick. She said he wouldn't live long enough for the dental to matter.

The only thing that helped was to throw away the dry food and feed them raw (yes, we went "one step further"). Now, 9 months later, they are healthy with no meds of any kind, and they came though their dentals with flying colors. They both have normal kidney function and they only puke up an occasional hairballs these days. There has not been any diarrhea at all since we changed their food. I will NEVER buy a bag of dry food again.

Please don't wait until your babies get sick before you read the information on this website. You'll learn that there's no such thing as "high-quality dry food." If I had known this earlier, I could have saved my kitties from years of suffering.

[IndyOp]

1. Dry cat food probably became popular because it was most profitable

for pet food companies. I don't know this is the case, but I am thinking of an article I read about human nutrition and how low-nutrient "white" flour became popular -- higher nutrient 'brown' flour has higher oil content and is more likely to spoil during storage. Companies could make more money selling the low-nutrient white flour and thus spent big money advertising a product that did not promote optimal health in people. I know that a lot of people prefer dry cat food because it is less expensive and easier to store. The same may be true of pet food manufacturers (it is cheaper to produce and store) so they make a bigger profit.

Both of my cats had kidney problems - I treated one for diabetes, paid $$$ for presciption food, kept the water supply super fresh (always filtered). I am saddened and angry to hear that a change in diet - even if only to canned food - might have made them healthier and happier.

:grr:

Thank you for sharing this... :applause:

[AirmensMom]

4. Good points, IndyOp.

We have been fooled into thinking that the pet food companies care about the health of our pets. And the pets suffer. I can't believe I wasted so much time and money with my cats when all I had to do was give them good food.

You're welcome. :hi:

[kestrel91316]

2. Funny, I must be imagining how well my patients do on TOP QUALITY

dry food (as opposed to junk with too much plant protein, and stuff with fish in it). The best dry food has an APPROPRIATE level of all nutrients. There is such a thing as too much protein. And canned food is associated with numerous medical problems in and of itself. I see way too much dental disease, gastrointestinal disease, and behavioral trouble (4 AM peskiness) with canned food. It is also HIGHLY suspect in the development of hyperthyroidism, and canned food with tuna is HIGHLY suspect on oral squamous cell carcinoma.

Not a good idea to use such a wide brush to tar ALL dry food, IMHO.

I could go on, but some people's minds (not necessarily the OP's) are hermetically sealed shut and I would be wasting my time.

[AirmensMom]

5. Did you read the website?

And if your patients are doing so well on dry, why do they need to see you?

[Patiod]

14. I got 4am peskiness when I STOPPED the wet

We used to give her a teaspoon in am and one in the pm - we cut the am after a vacation in Sept - and she's still waking us up trying to get us to give her breakfast.

If I ever have another cat, I will probably not feed wet food, and DEFINITELY NEVER feed in the morning!!!

I would love her to be on nothing but California Naturals, but if she doesn't get a teaspoon of Merrick's (any flavor but those with fish) every day at dinnertime, she follows us around the place yelling and yelling until her demands are met.

She had horrible mouth sores no matter what natural wet or dry food we gave her -- the only thing that stopped it was when the Hippie Pet Food store guy pointed out that all the dry foods have some fish meal (usually herring) except California Naturals.

Thanks for being here, kestrel! As someone who respects evidence-based medicine more than la-la theories that sound good, I'm reassured to know there's someone here with solid medical and scientific knowledge that we can learn from.

[meti57b]

22. "4am peskiness", is that what it's called? I get a "get up and feed me or

else I'll destroy everything in the room" at 4am each morning.... LOL

[Lisa0825]

23. I call it "the 4am I love yous!"

I think I just need to change my schedule so that my day starts at three so I can enjoy the snuggles and purring without being exhausted all day!LOL! :loveya:

[Patiod]

25. She alternates strategies

Sometimes destroying (knocking things off the vanity or night stand), tearing up bags, paper or newspaper, throwing herself against the door if it's closed, paws on the nose, paws on the eyeball (disconcerting) paws combing the hair. Sometimes running across our heads. Nothing seems to calm her.

[kestrel91316]

3. Also, this Dr. Lisa Pierson that the OP cites is advocating

a raw meat diet, something which is UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED in the veterinary profession as highly hazardous to your pet's and potentially YOUR health.

You are NOT citing a legitimate, mainstream source. This is bad info and may result in the death of your cat if you pursue this approach.

Time to stop before I lose my temper altogether.

[AirmensMom]

6. Mainstream veterinarians almost killed my cats.

And they made plenty of money doing it and prescribing the crap they call "high quality food." If you read the website, she also advocates feeding high quality CANNED food and even says how to read the ingredients. How the hell can that hurt anyone?

Progressive veterinarians are starting to advocate raw diets. I had no trouble finding two of them in my area.

I have nothing to gain by putting this information out for people to read. Can you say the same thing about advocating prescription dry food?

Edit: typo

[kestrel91316]

7. No responsible, intelligent, concerned vet is EVER going to

recommend a raw food diet for any dog OR cat. Period.

It is highly inappropriate from an infectious disease standpoint to do so. Public health really DOES matter. Some of us actually pay attention to public health issues. I cannot explain why on earth some veterinarians ignore this. But they do, and I DO NOT respect them.



STEC, Salmonella, and Shigella are three lovely creatures that come to mind when I hear about "raw food diets". You might google them.

Children and the elderly and the immunosuppressed (people being treated for HIV, cancer, or transplant recipients) are at particular risk of harm or death if they are anywhere NEAR an animal getting a raw food diet. Though I am a veterinarian, I care about vulnerable humans, too.

[AirmensMom]

9. OK, so don't let anyone buy meat for themselves, either.

Keep them away from the burgers at your next cookout.

That's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard! They can touch raw meat for human consumption, but they're at risk if they feed it to their pet? You don't let the stuff sit in a warm room and rot, for crying out loud!

If you're going to talk about public health issues, try researching the mold and bacteria contained in dry pet food.

Yes, I know you're a veterinarian -- you advertise it freely almost every time you post, as if no one else's input has any value. Dr. Pierson is also a veterinarian, and a damn good one.

[kestrel91316]

13. Firstly, I point out that I am a vet so that those who do not know

it won't think I am some uninformed opinionated dolt. Before I began to do so, I got some rather snotty responses along the line of "who the hell are you to think you know more than anybody else about this". Excuuuuuse me for trying to avoid that sort of thing.

Consumption of raw meat is just as hazardous for humans as it is for pets. And incompletely cooked burgers have resulted in human deaths due to STEC - remember Jack-in-the-Box in the 80s????

Your pet's raw meat is contaminated already when you get it from the store. Never doubt that. Whether or not it sits out at room temperature subsequently is only going to make things worse than they already are.

Trust me. I know my bacteria. I know my molds. I know my viruses, too. At least at lot more so than the average American. Infectious disease and zoonotic disease is something I "do" every day as part of my professional rsponsibilities.

[AirmensMom]

16. So now you hit first with your snotty responses and name-calling.

For your information, I don't buy raw meat from the store. If you read the page about making cat food, you would see how careful Dr. Pierson is to mention how and where to buy it and how to handle it. It arrives at my house frozen solid and was alive just a few days before it was shipped. And it never sits out more than the 10 minutes it takes for the cats to eat it. You don't know one damn thing about the way this food is handled.

No, I won't trust you. I don't hear you talking about the mold and bacteria in dry food, not to mention the rancid fats from never being refrigerated. And don't make the mistake of assuming that people who have done extensive research in order to regain the health of their dying pets are "average" Americans.

[bettyellen]

17. calm down.... where's the name calling?

no offense AM, but you seem to be confusing the vet posting here with the awful one that YOU chose to go to for eight years.
i'm sure you want to kick someone for that, but i don't think it's that poster that deserves your wrath.

[AirmensMom]

19. Look at post #12.

"Any damned fool can say just about anything and get away with it. And many damned fools do."

Post #7:
"No responsible, intelligent, concerned vet is EVER going to recommend a raw food diet for any dog OR cat. Period."

Am I the only one who sees these posts as a slam to Dr. Pierson?

And, the implication in post #13, "Firstly, I point out that I am a vet so that those who do not know it won't think I am some uninformed opinionated dolt" is that those of us who are not vets ARE uninformed opinionated dolts.

No, I am not confusing vets. (My bad vet's attitude didn't come close to being as condescending.) And I don't want to kick anyone for what my cats went through. They are healthy now, thanks to the info I posted in the OP. I have already had 9 wonderful months with them that I would NOT have had if not for the OP. That is cause to celebrate and share the information. If people don't want to read it, that's fine. I'm trying to communicate something that helped my cats, without medicine, and could help others. There is plenty of information to support Dr. Pierson's position, and it's not all written by "damn fools."

I disagree strongly with the vet you refer to because I have seen first-hand what dry food did to my pets. Sure, some pets tolerate it just fine. And it is definitely cheaper and easier than canned or raw, at least as long as the pet tolerates it and can stay out of the vet's office. But who wouldn't want to learn about nutritional support for treating or preventing these terrible diseases, if there is any possibility that it can help, especially when all other methods have failed?

[bettyellen]

21. i think it's totally fair for one vet to criticise another's opinion....

and offer their own. i wouldn't know it was a vet posting if they didn't ID themselves, the poster does have more experience with animals than either of us, so what is the big deal with accepting that instead of automatically taking it as an insult because you ain't a vet ? this ain't a one cure fits all cats world.
raw diets are quite controversial- and can be dangerous to pets and to humans who don't invest a lot of time, effort and expense into the process. i really think it was very responsible to bring up those issues, as a lot of people don't have the time and money these days to get frozen raw food express shipped to them.
dry food is quite controversial too, as it's come a long way in terms of quality in just the last few years, much bad info is still out there because most commercial stuff is garbage. i know a lot of cat health problems are blamed on the junk in pet foods- both wet and dry, and a lot of people suppose they found a miracle cure just because it worked for their particular animal. It did take a few months before I saw great impovement in my cat after switching her diet, but it seemed to work well for many years, and she stopped needing sub-q fluids in six months. i don't claim to know more than you, but it's funny to me after buying perscription food for 8 years + to hear is sooo bad, and that after just a few months this raw food is declared to be the solution. i guess i'd like to check in with you in 2014 is all, see how it's going. It does sound more plausible than the dry food dehydrates utter nonsense.
That said, you really did rudely accuse the poster of trying to intimidate people with their status as a vet as well as having a conflict of interest with pet food manufacturers. The very idea that someone (especially a vet) would knowingly feed their own pet an unhealthy brand of food just to get that uhhealthy free food is foolish and obviously intended to be insulting.It amount to accusing the vet to not caring about animals in general, let alone their own personal pet.
i know your intention is to help other cats, and that's very noble.... but there are issues that do need to be examined, and being defensive and insulting like that doesn't help. It would have been a useful thread if you could have resisted the personal attacks and not dredged up posts from five months ago.
I just looked at the website, in particular the part about the kidney perscription food, and i have to say either this vet is playing stupid or they are stupid. the whole point is for it to be low protein- that's common knowledge, and if the vet knows it- she's pretendoing she doesn't! So her breathless accusation- look at the first ingredients-omigod they are not protein! strikes me as very deceptive. All this stuff about what would be eaten in nature strikes me as poetic stabs in the dark. I don't think us humans would be better off eating a cavemans diet either, but if you follow her reasoning you'd think so.
I'm glad it's working for you, truly. But I never think one person knows it all, and certainly not the vet you linked to.

[AirmensMom]

27. Um, I linked to a vet's site in the OP.

And the vet her insulted her. She didn't just disagree with her.

If you bothered to read the OP, she mentions several good canned foods. And she offer advice on reading pet food ingredients labels.

I'm on disability, so I know how expensive it is to get raw frozen food express shipped relative to my income. Still, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than all those vet bills.

It's interesting that it took a few months for you go notice an improvement in your cat after switching diets and that she still required fluids for six months. The improvement we saw was literally overnight. Believe it or not ... it's up to you.

Yes, we stuck with our vet for 8+ years (actually, closer to 10, because she treated our previous pets). I admit to being ignorant during that time. And I trusted her "expertise" when she prescribed the very same food she was selling. It was only out of desperation that I did my own research and found the answer for my kitties.

The poster you refer to was rude from the start, as she frequently is when she answers my posts. Read into it what you will. Many people don't even see the connection between nutrition and health until they have a serious problem and run out of other options.

Now who's being insulting? Don't believe Dr. Pierson? Try Dr. Swift at www.therightremedy.com and read what he has to say about protein and kidney disease. While you're at it, try to remember the propaganda put out by the tabacco companies for so many years.

Yes, you DO think one person knows it all, and it's your hero on this group. If you want to follow her advice, knock yourself out!

[bettyellen]

59. Dr Pierson is admittedly making up this stuff as she goes along

as far as the diet goes, flax seed or no...hmmm, let's look at her cat's feces for the answer, shall we? scary stuff!

she swears one place (gives three or four conflicting reasons) that dry food doesn't help keeping teeth clean....
then elsewhere admits her cats teeth are in bad shape as a result of the new diet. lots of stuff does not add up when you read her site.

the composition of the raw diet she recommends -totally lacking grains is the result of her gut feeling, nothing more.
i love the part where she admits she's actually cooking the food for one of her cats, and she can't even get her own cats to eat the chunks of meat, LOL, so this is all an experiment for her as well. kinda makes you realize how half assed it is.
if you're comfy using your own cats as guinea pigs to test her theories, that's on you. a lot of what i read made me think she's an airhead or being disingenuous.

i get info from a wide variety of sources, no heroes or gurus for me. KD was actually recommended to me by friends, the vet really pushed vitamins (which i could never ever get het to swallow) as more important, but friends insisted i get her on science diet, friends gave me lots of great tips on how to admister fluids too. Like I said, no gurus for me, just lots of info on what HAS worked for others
.
my cat lived another 8-9 years after chronic renal failure using KD, she was on the edge of death and steadily improved and was 150% in a few months, acting like a young cat again. when you have a lasting sucess story like that to share, i'd love to hear it.
but right now you don't. face it, you're testing dr pierson's theories on your cats. good luck to you all.

[AirmensMom]

8. By the way, it's exactly this type of arrogance

that allowed my cats to be sick for so long. Did you read ALL of my post? My cats would already be DEAD if I had listened to my vet, continued with the "high quality" prescription dry food, and not found Dr. Pierson's website. My vet, like you, was totally unwilling to consider the dry food diet as the cause of the illness. And also, like you, tried to scare me away from raw food. She had EIGHT YEARS to get a grip on this and she failed. They were so sick that they couldn't even tolerate canned food -- NO grains or vegetables at all. They improved with the raw diet the very first day. And they are not even CLOSE to being sick now.

Did you read the open letter to veterinary professionals?

"The JAVMA article points out that cats eating dry food are chronically dehydrated when compared to cats eating canned food. The natural prey diet of a small cat has between 65 and 75 percent water. Dry kibble, with only about five to 10 percent moisture, draws even more precious moisture from a cat’s own reserves once it’s ingested."

What, JAVMA is not a legitimate, mainstream source?

[kestrel91316]

12. The business about cats eating dry food being in a perpetual

state of dehydration has recently been found to be NOT TRUE. We know for a FACT that the drive to drink water is directly related to the sodium concentration in the blood. If a cat does not get sufficient water in its dry food, the drive to drink tells it to drink more. When a cat eats exclusively canned food, its water needs are met through the water content of the food, so it may drink little or no water in addition. Cats are desert animals. They have VERY efficient kidneys under normal circumstances, and even as the kidneys weaken in disease, they still are very efficient at regulating the body's water balance.

Cats with kidney failure get dehydrated, not from eating dry food, lol, but because their weak kidneys are peeing out water faster than the poor things can drink it, and because they are responding to the sodium balance rather than their increased needs due to the kidney problem. Also, as kidney failure progresses and the cat loses homeostasis, the BUN and Creatinine rise and we have to give EXTRA fluids to "flush" them out. We have to watch the electrolyte balance in these cats (sodium, potassium, etc) and give special fluids (not just distilled, not tap water either) that have the correct electrolyte balance.

Dry food in itself is not a killer. MANY MANY MANY factors go into determining whether a cat will get ill from a particular disease, how ill it gets, and how it responds to treatment. To blame dry cat food for all a cat's ills is overly simplistic in the extreme, and misleading to readers who do not have the medical background to assess the factual basis of what thhey are reading.

Remember, this is the internet. Any damned fool can say just about anything and get away with it. And many damned fools do.

I am not arrogant, but I am tired of rumormongers misleading people.

[AirmensMom]

15. Right ...

Now try to explain to me (and don't forget the condescending tone) why my cat's kidney failure reversed completely when he was taken off dry food and put on raw, as did his IBD. He has lab work to verify it. It is also stated in his records that he would die very quickly if I didn't do the hundreds of dollars worth of testing and other bullshit the vet wanted to do. If it was something other than the diet change, what could it possibly be? The only other thing that changed was that we fired the vet. Hey, I know -- maybe the relief from finally getting a competent vet was completely responsible for his recovery! The food was just incidental! :sarcasm:

You don't need to lecture me on kidney failure. I had a cat AND a dog who both died from it ... after being on a diet of prescription dry food (same vet, different years). We did the subcutaneous fluids and I know they're not distilled or tap water. Jeez! Do you think the rest of the world is incapable of reading and learning?

You're right, any damned fool can say just about anything on the internet. It's insulting that you are implying that Dr. Pierson is one of those damned fools. Add Dr. Russell Swift (www.therightremedy.com) to your list. He's my vet, after all ... what does he know? They're only trying to help the pets, not the profits of pet food companies. Shame. They forgot who butters their bread, didn't they?

You're not arrogant? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Thanks for the laugh! Anyone with an ounce of humility would NEVER post "Cat vet checking in" ... translated, "I am vet -- hear me roar!" And you don't think this was arrogant, not to mention insulting?http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=243&topic_id=10655
"They will not poison your cat or you, though some folks on DU (the pseudoscience crowd) would like you to believe otherwise." Someone offers a safe, non-drug alternative that works and you insult them?!
:wtf:

You never answered my question: I have nothing to gain by putting this information out for people to read. Can you say the same thing about advocating prescription dry food?

I am providing information for people to read on their own, as well as my own experience. The websites both have sufficient disclaimers advising people to discuss with their own vets. Dismiss it if it makes you feel better or somehow superior. Meanwhile, I will do everything I can to post links to alternative information that is not sponsored by pet food companies or the veterinarians who are in bed with them.

[bettyellen]

18. my cats kidnety failure completely reversed on dry perscription.....

and she lived to nine more years, to the age of 17. she was not dehydrated in the least. she drank lots of water and thrived happily for many years.
because you think you and your vet made mistakes with two of your pets, all of a sudden you found the holy grail one cure for all pets now that one was treated more succesfully?
i'm sorry that you are taking this so personally but the stuff about dry food dehydrating cats is nonsense, and if you post nonsense, you have to take your lumps like an adult, and spare us the smilie collection.

[AirmensMom]

20. That was fortunate for your cat.

If you choose to ignore information that could help your pet when all else fails, it's up to you. But it may help someone else.

Believe what you will. I would prefer to take the advice of a vet whose credentials I can look up over one whose I cannot. And, excuse me, but I thought this group was all about sharing helpful information. Or is that only if the information is in lock-step with your favorite vet here?

Would you care to hear about how Rimadyl killed my sister's dog, or is that nonsense, too?

[kestrel91316]

35. My parents taught me to ignore nastiness. Time to heed them. Click.

[Grateful for Hope]

29. Hey, Doc

I suspect you are quite correct here in terms of anyone saying that all dry food is bad, and only canned and raw are good for cats.

Since I found Innova Evo (actually found it when my beloved Pushka was still alive, but alas too late for her 18 years and liver issues), and decided that it's low-carb no-grain content would be good for my kitties, they are thriving. Yes, I do supplement Jake with Organic Chicken medallions from Prairie that come frozen, and which I take great care to thaw correctly and clean the dish immediately afterward, but, the mainstay of both my cats is Innova Evo.

When you have a cat like I do (Spidey) who doesn't like anything but his kibbles, it is a real relief to know that there is dry food out there that takes a cat's well-being to heart.

Also what you say about water intake is quite accurate as I see that both my kitties drink a LOT of water, and they seem to enjoy it.

Just another point of view here...

[Lorien]

32. There's a world of difference between Innova Evo

and a product like Science diet. Evo is far closer to the natural diet of an obligate carnivore (just put the ingredients lists side by side-you can Google both). The vet cited by the OP gives a thumbs up to Innova Evo, so that's something to feel good about too. :-) My Oberon eats kibble 70% of the time (despite my attempts to get him on to an all wet diet), and the only brands he gets are Evo and Organix. My vet (a very progressive guy) would like him to go raw, but unfortunately that just ain't gonna happen.

[Grateful for Hope]

49. I have googled them and I know you are right, Lorien

I didn't know that the vet in the OP gives a thumbs up to Innovo Evo -- thanks for passing on this info, Lorien!

My Spidey sounds like Oberon in that I know he will never want to eat the good canned and raw food I have bought as a total diet...although he does eat tiny bits of some of the Prairie canned venison. Since all this food is so expensive, I decided to stick to what I know both my boys will eat.

What I noticed about Science Diet (introduced to my home when I adopted Jake) is that Spidey seemed to be almost addicted to it (at the time, I had decided that I should give it to both the boys). Prior to introducing it to him, I had him on Innova Evo, and there was a definite difference in his response to both foods.

After reading some of the great posts you have made here in regard to nutrition, I knew that my observations were accurate, and I weaned both boys off the Science Diet.

Like you, I would love to have Spidey on a raw diet (I love that Jake really, really likes the Prairie Organic Chicken), but, I don't see that it will ever happen.

[bettyellen]

63. i see the vet saying CANNED Innova is okay, could not find anything

saying dry kibble was okay under any circumstances. am i crazy, or wasn't this vet an absolutist on this point?

[nofurylike]

68. i do not ever try to disagree with you, here, because you are very

arrogant, and quite severely oppose any who disagree with you (as in your opening, snide reply to the OP of this generous and informative thread).

i do not ever hope you will actually care that you scare away opponents, but maybe you ought to, no?

just sayin...

:shrug:

[nofurylike]

10. thank you for this excellent info, AirmensMom. and for all the work of

compiling such clear and expert details.

i will be checking your journal regularly, for more of the knowledge you so often impart, here.


peace and gratitude!


*edit spelling

[AirmensMom]

11. You're welcome, nofurylike. I hope the information is helpful to you.

I came across this interesting little tidbit this morning:
(http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/Perhach/PetFood/Vets.htm)

"The reason your vet thinks so highly of the pet food they sell probably has more to do with money than nutrition. In vet school, the only classes offered on nutrition usually last a few weeks, and are taught by representatives from the pet food companies. Vet students may also receive free food for their own dogs and cats at home."

:wow:

BTW, No one is paying me.

Peace! :hi:

[nofurylike]

67. yes, the info is helpful, as it often is, thank you! very interesting

article, what i just read from that post.

-snip-
This issue was even placed on the agenda for an Executive Committee meeting at the vet school at Colorado State University. According to the minutes “discussion was held on how to handle dealing with pet food companies and their donations of pet food to the university. It was agreed to put together a task force to discuss this issue, investigate the possibilities, and make suggestions to the Executive Council on how to work with the numerous pet food companies that want to donate to CSU.” There was no further mention of this topic in meetings since.
-snip-


eeek!

hey, hang in there, AM. i have read this forum a long time, and i am surprised, and impressed that you even still try to reach through some people's (not necessarily our resident 'vet,' of course) chauvinism.

please keep giving us 'second opinions,' alternative, and integrative healing information that we so need in order to make responsible decisions for our precious furfamilies!!

:hug:


:yourock:


peace!!

[Lorien]

24. There's only two dry brands that I recommend if a cat won't eat wet

food (my Maine Coon Oberon is very finicky, and I can rarely get more than a few bites of wet food into him daily); Innova Evo and Organix. Innova Evo contain no grains or fillers, and the much of the meat and other ingredients (all human grade) are freeze dried to preserve their nutritional benefits.Organix is a similar product with a small amount of grains-and it's human grade and mostly organic. My overweight cat Miro lost a lot of weight eating the Evo along with his daily tins of canned foods (Wellness,innova, Artemis, Natural Balance, Prairie Nature's variety, etc.), plus I add a pre made human grade raw cat diet when I can afford it (I already spend about $80 a month for food and treats for three felines)! I lost one beloved cat to a "premium" diet (Eukanuba, Iams, and Science Diet) and nearly lost Miro before my cat sitter turned me on to human grade pet foods. To solve the water issue I put filtered water in a pet fountain for them. The running water encourages them to drink-and they do drink quite a bit every day. Puck will eat wet-plus a freeze dried raw diet. Raw is best, of course, but proper preparation is a must-along with enough taurine (which mostly comes from organ meats).

[AirmensMom]

26. Thanks for your input, Lorien.

My Abys have re-gained their weight and are at a healthy, but trim, 9.5 and 8 pounds. They had both gotten down to 6 pounds when they were sick. It was pretty cool waking up the day after we started raw and not finding piles of puke and diarrhea all over the place.

We're spending rougly $180 for about 50 days worth of food for 4 cats. It's expensive, to be sure, but we're not paying so much to the vet anymore. Dr. Swift came to look at Sabrina's teeth after her dental a few weeks ago and declared all the cats healthy.

The brands you mentioned are what Dr. Pierson recommends. We have tried Wellness, but the Abys can't tolerate it as well as raw. I wonder if after a few years on raw they will be able to.

We have a pet fountain, too! They don't drink as much as they used to ... but they sure do mow down that raw food in no time. Sashka likes to play with the fountain like it's a sink.
Have I told you I'm in love with your cats, especially Oberon? :loveya: They have a great cat mom!

[mike_c]

56. OT, but every cat lover on DU...

...loves Oberon!

[IndyOp]

28. Doesn't freezing the raw food after preparation kill

the bacteria and viruses that found in raw meat (even human grade)? I think one reason why people react negatively to 'raw' diet is that we all know that meat must be cooked to kill germs, after handling raw meat you must wash your hands -- I looked at one site that shows how to make the food and after mixing meat & supplements, they froze individual portions. I would be concerned about germs if the food was served raw straight from the store, but freezing the portions before serving would take care of the bacteria. Maybe cat digestive tracts can handle the bacteria and viruses we can't, but I would be concerned about transmission to humans, especially kids.

As I read this thread - my overall impression is that we do need to rethink what/how we are feeding our pet cats. I do not trust pet grade foods - Iams, Purina - for lots of reasons. I do think vets are swayed by pet food sales people, the same way that human doctors are swayed by pharmaceutical companies.

I think, though, that premium brands like Innova could make a non-grain moist kibble food that takes into account all that we are rethinking about cats as carnivores and the importance of diet for health. Whether or not an individual cat can do well on a high-quality kibble or whether they need a raw diet depends on the cat...

And I am ALL for turning the Western Medical model upside down -- for humans and animals; physical and mental health. Our doctors and vets and psychologists focus on treating symptoms and diseases. It is hard to get information from them about health.

That's all for now...

[AirmensMom]

30. I don't know the answer to that, IndyOp.

I do know that cats have shorter digestive tracs than humans, which gives them the ability to handle bacteria that can be harmful to us.

The food we feed our cats is frozen. If we were to buy it from a store, we would buy organic from Whole Foods, although my sister gets great results buying discounted whole chickens and grinding them herself.

To protect against transmission to humans, you would definitely wash your hands after handling the food. This is no different from what you would do if you were preparing a roasted chicken or turkey for your family -- you handle it raw, to get it into the oven, and then you wash your hands. And you don't let the children touch it. Easy.

I don't think a non-grain moist kibble food is in quite the same category as the grain-laden cook-forever super-dehydrated stuff that Dr. Pierson is talking about. I could be wrong, but I would be willing to check with her on that.

For humans and pets, health is defined in our culture as absense of disease. It would be great to have a higher standard than that!

Thanks for your post, IndyOp.

[bettyellen]

64. you don't lets kids, the immune suppressed handle the cat either....

ever. because they can pass on the parasites infections and bacteria that the cat can "handle"- but humans cannot.
it really needed to be said.
and no, freezing doesn't kill bacteria.

[harleydad]

31. This is my first post.

I have read through this thread and think AirmensMom is dead on - and not for medical or scientific reasons. Rather, I believe you have to put your stock in someone who has been there. It is one thing for an "expert" to say, based on scientific this or medical that, that raw food may, or will, cause some type of poisoning. It is another for someone who has had her cats perpetually sick for their entire lifetime despite the best efforts of conventional vets, with their diet recommendations (IVD, Science Diet, Max Cat, Wysong), miraculously get well on raw food, in a matter of days as I understand it. When a member of the family gets that sick for that long, you are willing to try anything. And, if you find healing, you become an evangelist.

Besides, do we actually have studies out there showing that cats on good raw food (not road kill) get this poisoning rhat conventional vets speak of, or is this simply something they hear about in one of their classes at Cornell or read in journals promoting conventional vet medicine?

It sort of reminds me of those moran congressmen who want to deny marijuana from terminal cancer patients because it is addicting and harmful. Give me a break! When it gets bad enough, what really matters?

I would say to any cat owner out there; if your cat is not getting better on dry or canned food and you are afraid to use raw food, then wait. But, don't wait so long your cat dies. When you get desperate enough you will be ready to try raw food and you will be where AirmensMom is.

edit: grammar

[Lorien]

33. Hi harleydad!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

I've had the same experiences AirmensMom has with my cats-and sadly I lost one of my beloved pets to a whole host of illnesses before discovering human grade pet foods that mimic a wild diet. My remaining cats were also constant patients at the vet's office prior to the switch; one had cancer and problems with his urinary tract, the other was obese and had all manner of digestive problems. After the switch they both dramatically improved; one lived to 18, the other (who the vet had said would never see ten) is 17 now and snoring right behind me as I type this. I was So impressed with the changes in their health due to diet that I changed my own diet radically too. I went from the Standard American Diet to organic vegetarian, no sugar, no caffeine,no white flour, low carb, no processed food low dairy diet. It was tough at first, but the payoff was well worth it. I had a number of chronic health issues for the past 20 years (like fibromyalgia, CFS, arthritis, depression and ADD) that have nearly disappeared from my life. Food CAN be medicine IMHO-and it's a heck of a lot less expensive than most prescriptions. ;-)

[harleydad]

34. I'm so glad you found the diet changes helped you and your cats.

You just can't argue with results. When it is you or a family member, any solution is great.

Only, I had to do a Raw Vegan Thanksgiving last year. That was Really Nasty. The concept was good but the execution - well - not quite there.

[AirmensMom]

36. LMAO!

:rofl:

OK ... it wasn't turkey with stuffing! But at least the cats weren't begging for it! :rofl:

(OOPS! harleydad ... are you offended by the smileys? SORRY!)

[Lorien]

38. Lol!

and I thought MY diet was harsh! ;-)

[AirmensMom]

41. "But, don't wait so long your cat dies."

Thanks, harleydad. Some people here just don't get it. :( Sad for the furbabies, isn't it? :cry:

[mike_c]

57. I can answer this-- NO-- freezing does not kill most bacteria....

Freezing stops bacterial growth. Some bacteria cannot tolerate freezing, and the mortality rate is high for others, but freezing DOES NOT STERILIZE FOOD-- it simply stops bacterial growth while the food is frozen. Bacterial growth resumes as soon as the food is thawed to room temp.

[bettyellen]

62. no it doesn't kill the bacteria

in fact the thawing, grinding and refeezing she recommends is really bad news as far as food safety goes.
you would really have to keep these pets away from the immuno suppressed, the very young and old.
not just the food, but the pets themselves. i'm all for turning the western model upside down too, but IMHO this vet is being very irresponsible about these considerations. it's scary to see people guessing about pathogens and stuff.

[kestrel91316]

37. Thank you to the many DUers who have PM'd me your kind words.

I am going to take the advice of some of you and CLICK that little button with the red cross, lol.

[AirmensMom]

40. That's a mighty handy way to run away from the truth, isn't it?

:shrug: Getting a little hot in the kitchen for you, is it?

[harleydad]

42. Leaving so soon?

Why not a little humility in the face of pet owners who have gone through extreme frustration with conventional vetinarian medicine and finally found relief for themselves and their "kids"?

Most people aren't going to go off standard commercial cat food (dry or wet) unless things get really bad. When someone says their cat has constant health problems and nothing else works, it important for them to know about alternatives, especially when these chronic conditions create a steady decline in health.

As I said before, I'm not aware of any studies that show raw food actually is bad for cats. Vets predict the high protein diet is bad but where are the studies? There are other factors at work in a raw diet that ameliorate the high protein intake. Furthermore, how many obligatory carnivores do you see out there eating grains, corn, peas and potatoes.

You may want to red-cross me too.

[AirmensMom]

43. Hey, harleydad!

Nice to hear the voice of reason here. :hug: (Oops! I forgot -- they don't like smileys on this thread!)

Be careful, Mr. Newbie ... you'll get ignored in a NY minute if you disagree with "cat vet here!"

[harleydad]

44. Oh well.

[AirmensMom]

45. LMAO!

:rofl:

So new, and so ignored already! Hey, your experience doesn't count for beans in this group. Sorry you had to see the bad side of DU so quickly.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig ... can't remember who said that.

But here's another one from www.therightremedy.com:

"Medicine is the only profession I know where practitioners are paid to make a problem worse."

Sad, isnt' it? You try to help and end up getting ignored. :shrug:

[harleydad]

51. Well, the way human nature works. You stick to theory

until real life forces you to adjust.

[kestrel91316]

47. As I have said repeatedly, raw meat is HIGHLY inappropriate

as food for your cat or dog. No research studies are necessary, IMHO, as it is established fact that many pathogenic bacteria and also many parasites are found in/on raw meats. That said, a very recent article in JAVMA corroborates what I am saying: somebody actually did some sort of funded study and published an article in a mainstream vet journal regarding the disease risk of feeding a raw diet. No, I don't have the link - I read it in a PAPER copy of the JAVMA. I am not a cut/paste/link fiend. I stand my ground on this. Raw diets in pets constitute a PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD, not to mention a hazard to the pet's health. Period.

You misunderstood me. I am not going to be intimidated and harrassed into going away. I have put certain unnecessarily nasty and combative folks on Ignore. If you don't like my opinion you are certainly free to do the same.

[harleydad]

50. So - YOU say raw meat is highly inappropriate.

But - what about the study? And, let's be careful about what kind of raw meat? If we fed our cats road kill or green meat, assuming they would eat it, there WOULD be a real concern for high quantities of bad bacteria or parasites. There are carnivores the world around who do NOT get their food from the vet's office or PetSmart. However do they stay alive?

Isn't it possible that there are some things about this that you are ignorant of? For example, suppose that cats, like some other carnivores, have some natural defenses against bad bacteria and the like. As a vet, you should know there is a lot of mystery in the world of medicine.

You can have your THEORY about raw diets constituting a PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD or hazard to pet's health. It doesn't make sense and it isn't corroborated by experience or studies. Just because you put "period" at the end of your statement don't make it so.

The fact is, there are enough people out there who have recovered the health of their pets after switching from the PetSmart/vet food to raw food that your statements are suspect. You cannot deny their experience. There is only so much authority people are willing to give a vet.

[Tammie]

52. Is this the JAVMA article?

Please, nobody flame me. I'm just trying to understand points of view.

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp


Raw meat diets spark concern
In recent years, feeding dogs raw meat has become increasingly popular. The trend, however, has sparked health concerns, because of the risk of foodborne illnesses in pets as well as the public health risks of zoonotic infections. Now, a new study that identifies potentially harmful bacteria in 21 commercial raw meat diets bolsters these concerns.

"This has some potential public health concerns for both the animals being fed these diets and their human owners," said Dr. Rachel Strohmeyer, a researcher at the Animal Population Health Institute, Colorado State University. She presented her findings at the annual meeting of the Conference of Research Workers in Animal Diseases held in Chicago in November.

Proponents of raw meat diets say it improves dogs' performance, coat, body odor, teeth, and breath. While high-performance dogs, such as racing Greyhounds and sled dogs, have been fed raw meat diets for years, the trend to feed raw meat to companion dogs is new.

Because of this trend, and because the safety of these raw diets has received limited attention, Dr. Strohmeyer tested 21 commercially available raw meat diets, two dry dog foods, and two commercial canned dog foods for non-type specific Escherichia coli, Salmonella spp, and Campylobacter spp. The researchers purchased diets of beef, lamb, chicken, and turkey in four months, trying to space the purchasing times far enough apart so that they came from different lots. Three samples from each product underwent bacteriologic culturing each time.

The researchers did not find Campylobacter spp in any of the foods, but non-type-specific E coli was isolated from all raw meat products. Ten of the raw products contained S enterica. "It is really important to note that 99 percent of raw meat samples were contaminated with aerobic bacteria, and 79 percent had gram-negative, probably enterica, contamination," Dr. Strohmeyer said.

The scientists also found non-type-specific E coli in a few of the samples taken from the dry food, and believe post-processing contamination is to blame for these results.

"There is a greater apparent risk to animals and humans from feeding a raw meat diet," Dr. Strohmeyer commented. "I really do not think that there is any advice we, as veterinarians, can give to improve safety. You can give basic food safety guidelines like hand washing, cleaning surfaces, and bowls, etc., not letting the food sit out for extended periods of time. I just think that it would be a disservice for a veterinarian to give any recommendation for the safety of dogs and their owners (except to not feed raw meat to pets). Bacteria are not the only health concern, there are also parasites and protozoal organisms that can be transmitted in raw meat, even meat labeled fit for human consumption."

Other veterinarians, including Dr. Jeffrey LeJeune, a food safety molecular epidemiologist and microbiologist at The Ohio State University, agree that pets should not be fed raw meat. This may be a hard sell, however, to some clients.

"From my own clinical experience, owners that feed raw (meat) pretty much have their minds set that they are going to feed raw," Dr. Strohmeyer said. She thinks clients who are thinking about feeding raw (meat), however, can be swayed fairly easily, just by basic education.

[harleydad]

53. This article simply says that the raw meat they tested

has more of some forms of bad bacteria than the canned or dry that they tested. Their dire warnings are based primarily on their educated GUESS that this means a health risk to pets and humans. Again there seems to be no real proof for this.

My points are really quite simple:

1. I don't think these experts take into account the possiblity that a carnivore's digestive tract might be able to handle a larger dose of bad bacteria (consider those birds that don't get sick feeding on carrion). And, the experts don't do studies to see if carnivore pets (like cats and dogs) are really hurt by a good quality raw diet. They just speculate and warn and denigrate.

2. These experts, like Strohmeyer, don't bother to think about what makes a pet owner decide to give up on dry or canned food and go to raw, usually an expensive move. They don't seem to understand that, for many of these people, going to a raw food diet was a last ditch effort to save their animal. These people "have their minds set" only BECAUSE the raw food made such a drastic improvement in their pet's health. They aren't going on theory.

Thanks for the article, though.

[kestrel91316]

54. That's a news piece ABOUT the article I read, IIRC.

And bacteria/fecal contamination of meat is certainly nothing new. I learned all about it in basic undergrad microbiology, and then again in vet school microbiology, pathology, and gastroenterology. The threat is blatantly obvious to anyone who knows their microbiology.

Thank you for the search/link. I never have the patience to do all that, lol.

[Tammie]

55. Your Welcome!!!

I became interested because my 18 year old cat, Dixie, recently had lab work done and she has a slight kidney problem (creatinine 2.8, BUN 54, everything else normal range except some kind of gravity was a little low at 1.0135). The vet did not suggest changing her diet because it was his opinion that at her age she would resist and he thinks it more important for her to eat at this time. I've been a little concerned about doing nothing. However, I've been doing some reading about raw diets since this thread was started and I don't think I want to go down that road. It seems that there is too much room for error for me in preparation and I wouldn't want to do anything to create a new problem for Dixie. Your input here on various topics has been interesting to me. Thanks!

[kestrel91316]

66. That urine specific gravity is very low, and indicates

a cat with very little safety margin in its kidney function. I PM'ed you with some specific recommendations for you to discuss with your vet. Good luck.

Also, with the diet change, if you do a gradual transition with blending the old and new foods, most cats go along with it just fine.

[AirmensMom]

39. I am amazed

at the kool-aid drinkers (ass-kissers?) on this thread. Well, kestrel, go ahead and hit the ignore button. That only proves that you're in it for the money, not the welfare of the pets.

And for those who don't want to know the truth about this, or are convinced she is GOD because she (ostensibly) has a DVM, go ahead and put me on ignore, too. I was only trying to help. I won't make that mistake again. You'll just have to learn the hard way. :shrug:

PS ... "CAT LOVER HERE!"

[Lisa0825]

46. Could you try to be less antagonistic?

This attitude doesn't help the situation. I am not taking sides on the issue, because I am not knowledgable enough about it, but I do take sides on who was antagonizing who, and you did plenty yourself, though you blamed the vet for all the hostility.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here. I'd just like to say that if the vet decided to back off, can't you do the same, rather than taunting him/her?

[AirmensMom]

48. Just read her very first reply.

That says it all. And she has me on ignore now, so how can you accuse me of taunting her? I've learned that it's apparently against the rules to post anything that disagrees with her in this group. This is not the first time she has antagonized me on my posts. She has insulted other vets (not simply disagreed with them), but no one calls her on that. She is not the end-all authority, but apparently people think she is. She attacked first. She did NOT back off, she hit the ignore button. There's a difference.

While you're defending her, can you tell me how many times she has posted on threads where someone has lost a pet, either to death or running away or to admire someone's cute kitty? Does she give a shit what happens when pet owners are distraught over the loss of their loved ones? She only shows up as the "expert", and everyone buys it ... so what's the point of even pretending there's a discussion on this group?

Dr. Pierson is committed to helping kitties. She has rescued, nursed to health, and found homes for over 400 cats in just a few years. And that doesn't even begin to count the number of cats she has saved through her website and online boards. But she is being portrayed on this thread as unintelligent, irresponsible, and uncaring. I didn't appreciate the digs against her. Just do a google on her and you'll find that she's very well-respected. She saved my cats and I was sharing that and her website. I would have been grateful for this information a year ago, or sooner. It's obvious to me that this thread has been a complete waste of my time and energy. I don't need to share what I find anymore.

I sincerely hope you find your cat ... but I already said that in your thread.

[nofurylike]

70. do you really not see who antagonized? i hope you'll read more

carefully in the future, if you're going to criticize others.

thank you.

peace.

[mike_c]

58. I'm going to echo that sentiment and ask that you tone down...

...the antagonism. I've corresponded with kestrel about my cats in the past, and had numerous discussions with her on DU, and found her knowledgable, caring, and not at all "arrogant." Quite the opposite, in fact.

There is considerable disagreement about optimal diets among professionals, and at this point all sides cite evidence to bolster their positions but none of that evidence is definitive enough to unambiguously settle the matter. I think we can all agree that cheap pet foods manufactured for mass sales to people who'd be horrified by the suggestion of spending more than a few bucks a month "just to feed the cat" are not best for long term health and nutrition. Beyond that, there's lots of controversy, just as there is for human nutrition. Running someone down as a charletan for taking an opposing view is not only counterproductive, it's unwarranted.

I have an eight year old female struggling with kidney disease right now, so I'm REALLY interested in this discussion. I'm giving her sub-cutaneous fluids daily and trying to wean her onto k/d kibble at least temporarily while I try to learn more about diet options. In my particular circumstances, the diet I choose will need to be acceptable to four other healthy cats as well OR some level of cross feeding will have to be OK. All my cats accept a mix of wet and dry foods, but I don't want to feed ONLY a wet diet-- they simply don't eat as well and Marble in particular (the cat with failing kidneys) prefers kibble.

[bettyellen]

60. good luck to you mike. how is the sub-q going?

are you warming the bag?
let me put in a plug for terumo needles right now, they have like 2X the flow rate for the diameter of the needle. so worth it.
if you have any questions, pm me!

[AirmensMom]

65. "Running someone down as a charletan for taking an opposing view

is not only counterproductive, it's unwarranted."

I couldn't agree with you more. Yet you tolerate it from her if you overlook the way she attacked Dr. Pierson from her very first post. This was not a discussion about raw feeding, although it quickly turned into that because the link in the OP has a section on raw feeding and because I mentioned that our cats are fed raw, the only choice left to us when all else failed. (It's pretty tough on a kitty when he has kidney failure AND daily runny diarrhea and vomiting.) I was trying to send info about dry food that I thought would be helpful. It was clearly a waste of time and effort.

I hope your cat gets well. I'm not saying any more ... good luck.

[nofurylike]

72. "some people's minds (not necessarily the OP's) are hermetically sealed"

"not at all 'arrogant.'"?

you can *honestly* say you don't hear anything snide in that (poster's first) reply to the OP?

uh-huh

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nofurylike]

69. you read first, or just "jump!"? eom

[harleydad]

71. I have had no replies to my comments

and I was nice.

Look guys, it really isn't sinful to question a vet! Don't be afraid.

[Moderator]

73. Locking

Thread is now off-topic with many inflammatory comments.