Opinions

[gaspee]

First off, if you don't think anyone should be breeding pure bred dogs, please skip this post.

Gone now?

OK, good.

I breed and show dogs. I've been doing it for almost 15 years now, breed one litter a year (some years no litters) complete all health checks, am a member of two local all breed clubs and three breed specific clubs, am active in rescue and all of my dogs live in the house as house dogs. I keep the most promising puppy out of a litter to show myself when I do breed a litter. I enjoy the training, the competition and the pride I have in my "kids." It should go without saying that I also enjoy their company and companionship.

Right now I have seven dogs. A 14 year old, her 11 year old son, a 5 year old, a four year old boy who finished in the top twenty last year, two two year olds -- a boy and a girl from the same litter -- and a 4 month old boy who shows great promise.

All but the two youngest boys are champions.

Here's my question that I want your opinion on because I am torn about this.

My boy who is about to turn two years old (the 26th of Feb) is oversized for the show ring. I've been kind of in denial about it, but I've finally gotten a wicket on him and he's about 1/4 inch oversized.

Because we have a height limit over and under, I will not be using him for breeding because I do not want to have more problems with size down the line.

I am already over my local dog limit by one - you can see where I'm going with this. Should I find a good pet home for him? He's perfectly content here, but would he have a better life in a household where he can be the only dog or with one other dog where he gets more one on one time with the people? He doesn't have the temperament for therapy dog work (which my oldest girl is about to retire from doing and my 4 year old boy is in training for) and he can't be shown at dog shows or perform in performance events (because of the size disqualification.)

If I were only to think of myself, I'd keep him. I'm trying to think about him and what is best for him.

The breed does not do well in packs and are quite dog aggressive, typically. He is not like that and gets along well with the three girls and two of the other boys... the other boy - not so much. They try to kill each other so they have to be kept separated.

Has anyone ever placed a two year old? I tend not to place my older dogs and wash puppies out and get them into permanent homes by six months old. I've held onto this guy because I was in total denial about his size.

Has anyone ever adopted an older dog?

Does anyone have an opinion on whether putting him in a new home is cruel? I am not trying to make room for another dog because I have no plans for any new dogs or puppies for at LEAST the next three years.

My motivation is purely based on what is best for him. I'm just kind of torn... am I making excuses to keep him in a multiple dog household because it's what *I* want or is it really best for him to stay here.

And I have one request - can we please not turn this into a discussion on whether or not anyone should be breeding dogs. If you would like a discussion on that topic, please start your own thread.

You can see pictures of him here: http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg237/taizo_photos/?albumview=slideshow

[yellerpup]

1. It's never cruel to place an animal in a home where it will be loved

and well cared for. He may even benefit by being someone's one-and-only dog. Good luck.

[gaspee]

11. Thanks

I frequently have people inquiring about older dogs but I've never mentioned him and usually send them on to friends I know who always place their retired show dogs.

[China_cat]

2. A year ago we adopted Jake and Elwood from breed rescue.

They were 8 at the time. In the last 3 -weeks- Bouvier rescue has had 5 dogs over the age of 10 adopted. One was 13, which is truly ancient for this breed.

This dog is only 2. You should have a great chance of having him adopted. But yes, he should go as an only dog or one in a household with female dog mates. And he should be neutered before offering him for adoption. At his age, you shouldn't rely on a promise from the adopter. (This should also help mellow out some of his dog aggression)

Lots of people out there don't want puppy hell but they want an energetic youngster...which your 2 year old is.

[gaspee]

12. Always

I always place pups on a spay neuter contract and make sure to follow through. I'm very protective of my kennel name and bloodlines. He comes from some of the top kennels in the US and Japan including 3 American national specialty winners and 2 Nippo grand national winners.

Since he's older, I would have him done before he left. Early neutering is turning out to have detrimental exo-skeletal effects on dogs (the jury is still out on early spaying) but at two years old, he's reached maturity and can be safely neutered.

Puppies are hell, you hit that right on the head. Especially Shiba puppies - they're like a two year old wielding a chainsaw and not wearing pants, LOL!

I'm afraid you are right and placing him is the thing to do. I just don't want to do it - which is why I asked for opinion. But I don't want to be selfish when it comes to him, know what I mean?

[China_cat]

22. Ever seen the result

of a black Bouvier pup in full coat who has chewed a hole in a beanbag chair and then jumped on it?

That one went to the bridge in 1994 and we're STILL finding those little styrofoam beads. And getting that stuff out of his coat wasn't exactly a picnic either.

[Ayesha]

3. He's beautiful

I have seven dogs too, and am trying to rehome one, so I feel your pain. Having to keep one separated from the others was the deal-breaker for us. It's not fair to the dogs either, as inevitably the separated one gets less attention and is still stressed out by the presence of the one s/he dislikes.

IMO you'll have no problem placing a two-year-old dog. That's still young, and he's a purebred of a fairly uncommon breed. Do you have any contacts in breed rescue? They may have someone who is already looking for a dog and didn't find a match among the available rescues. It sounds like he does OK with some other dogs, so perhaps you could place him in a home that already has a female.

Why can't he be in performance events? I didn't know size mattered there. Plenty of spayed/neutered dogs compete in agility, and many of them are not so great examples of their breed.

[gaspee]

14. Thanks

Yeah, he's gorgeous, which is why I was in such denial about his size! He's stunning and if it weren't for being too big, he'd be very successful in the show ring. He's a great example of the breed, but part of that standard is size. Unfortunately. Sigh.

I wouldn't put him through the rescue system because there are quite a few homeless Shibas that need to be rescued. I do transport for rescue but I can't foster because my pack doesn't accept strangers.

Performance events don't allow dogs with a disqualifying fault for their breed and since he is oversized, that's a disqualifying fault. I'd love to run him in rally or agility, but he can't.

I think you're right in that a home with one female is probably best for him. I'm being selfish in keeping him.

[China_cat]

23. I think you're wrong about performance events.

For agility:

For all organizations, dogs can compete provided that they are:

* Registered with the specific organization
* Physically sound (blindness, deafness AKC Regulations, and physical impairments interfering with functional movement may disqualify a dog from eligibility; consult each organization for more specific information)
* At least the minimum age (for example, 15 months in AKC<1> and CPE, 18 months in USDAA and NADAC)
* Not a female in heat
* Well-behaved enough to be off leash around other dogs and people; for example, dogs who attack the judge, other people, or other dogs may be expelled from the trial site and may eventually be banned from competing

Dogs of any size, ancestry, or nationality can compete, with the exceptions of the AKC, which limits dogs to those who are eligible for registry with the AKC, and the TDAA, which limits dogs to those of no more than 17" at the withers.

The only restriction for AKC events in agility is that the dog be ELIGIBLE for registry. I know of quite a few neutered (a disqualification for the show ring) agility competitors.

Even obedience and rally don't require adherance to confirmation standard. And, from what I can see, even Schutzhund and ring sport only require that the animal NOT be neutered.

[Zoigal]

4. Have an eight year old borzoi that was given to me

by the breeder because he was finished showing, and she didn't want to
use him for breeding. He is wonderful. Also had a lovely whippet given to me
by the breeder under the same circumstances. He, too, had finished.
We had him fifteen years. Both of these dogs fit in well with our family
and other animals. Haven't had any experience with a Shiba Inu, but
know that breeders are hard to find. Friends were looking for one.
Good luck in finding a great home for him if you choose to go that direction. z

[gaspee]

15. A lot of

Breeders I know immediately place their retired showing/breeding dogs as soon as they are done with them. I have mixed feelings about it. In the long run, I'm sure it's best for the dogs.

I just find it hard to let go of them, even if it is in their best interest.

[MiniMe]

5. I volunteer for a rescue, and we place dogs of all ages

We have had 12 year olds adopted and pups adopted and everything in between. I would say that if you aren't going to breed him, it is probably best to have him neutered. Sorry, thats the rescue person coming out in me. It is not cruel to place him with somebody else as long as it is a loving family, a good home, and there is a bond there. We get dogs in that are owner give-ups usually due to an allergy in the family or money problems. They adjust, but there is definitely a period of adjustment.

Your dogs are beautiful by the way.

[Lisa0825]

6. Our rescue also places dogs of ALL ages.

Your dogs are GORGEOUS, BTW!!!

While we'd love to say that all pets should be loved, lets face it, people love pretty pets. I can almost guarantee you that your pup would be snapped up! And if you agree to foster him, he will go from one HOME to another, without ever being in limbo.

My only questions are...

Are you wanting to find him a home because of the one dog he doesn't get along with and has to be separated from?
Do you think he is not getting enough attention?
Other reason?

If he is happy there and space is not an issue, I don't see why you need to re-home him, but I understand if it is due to behavior or happiness.

[gaspee]

16. I feel like

It would be in his best interests to live in a house where he gets more attention. Right now, he's one of seven. And while I spend a lot of time with the pack, very few dogs get individual attention outside the show ring or training class.

I don't keep them in kennels, so it's not like he's being ignored.

Also, he's not the one who starts the fights. My 11 year old male is a real bastard and tries to kill every male dog he meets. That's normal behavior for a male Shiba though.

My two intact adult males who get along is what's rare, not the ones that hate each other. They are a very same-sex aggressive breed. A lot like their bigger cousins, Akitas.

[Coyote_Bandit]

7. I adopted

a one year old that had never been inside a building - any kind of building. He is a samll breed that is typically considered a house dog. He has become a delightful companion. Because he grew up with so many other dogs I did get another dog as a companion for him. They get along well and compliment each other. Still, sometimes I wish I had kept him as an only dog.

I grew up in a rural area. It was an area where folks tended to dump their unwanted animals. We took them all in and tried to find homes for them. The undisciplined dogs were a problem sometimes. The others found a place.

I really don't think it is ever wrong to place a dog in a home where he is cared for and loved. Of course, I say that without ever having had to place an animal I considered family in another home.

:hug:

[sazemisery]

8. Am I reading you correctly?

You are torn because he is *special* to you and you would rather have him with you. But you also want to do what is best for him. I have had those special dogs (they are always the ones that aren't going to make it in the show ring or field trial or whatever but they are no less of a dog because of that. Indeed, they are *special* in a spirit way and that spirit sings to you. There are no easy answers for you. But I have always found that when my furkids go to a home where I know they will flourish, I can let go.

I hope there is not a dog limit at the Rainbow Bridge 'cause I have a huge pack waiting for me.

[gaspee]

10. Exactly

He *is* special to me so I'm afraid I'm holding on to him because it's what is best for me, not for him. I'm afraid I'm being selfish in keeping him.

[Longhorn]

9. I have re-homed a dog.

Maggie was a beautiful black and white Springer Spaniel mix. We adopted her as a puppy when we had two other dogs. For whatever reason, Maggie was always extremely submissive to our older Cocker-Golden mix, Sandy. She was constantly throwing herself at his feet, squirming and peeing. Sandy was never the least bit aggressive. He also wasn't too interested in Maggie. We had her for a couple of years and her behavior didn't improve. I felt sorry for both of them because she would never give him peace but she also was so desperate for his attention. We tried to give her extra attention but that wasn't what she wanted. I hate to say it but there are some dogs with whom I haven't bonded as much as others and Maggie was one of them, maybe because of this undesirable behavior.

We found out that the grown daughter of a neighbor was really crazy about Maggie so we asked her if she would like to have her and she was thrilled. As an only dog, Maggie's demeanor changed completely. She became very confident, independent, and self-assured. It was so clear that she was better off with this couple, who simply adored her, and still do (she must be around 11 now.) But even though she was a different dog in their home, she would still do her submissive act around Sandy when she came to visit! They adopted a second dog but Maggie did not repeat her behavior with that dog. Just something about Sandy, I guess.

Last year, we adopted a fifth dog, Chase, who is a Shepherd-Lab mix. For the first six months, there were some terrible fights between our dogs, some involving Chase, but all of which were due to the unrest in our pack because of adopting him. For awhile, we considered re-homing him, but he had already been rescued from a home because of neglect and he seemed so happy with us. We learned as much as we could about pack behavior and things we could do to change the environment. It seems to have worked because we haven't had any fights since last summer. Of all of our dogs, Chase is the one who always seems the happiest. I can't help but wonder if he remembers his first year of life and feels lucky to live at our doggy camp. ;)

I guess my point is that re-homing a dog can certainly be what is best for the dog but it can work out to keep them, too. Frankly, it was easier for us to keep Chase than to find him another home but your dog may be easier to place. As far as the dog limit, I wouldn't let that be the reason I get rid of a dog unless they actually come tell me I have to do it.

Good luck!

[gaspee]

17. The dog limit

Kind of pisses me off because my next door neighbor has an Australian Shepherd who never, ever stops barking. My seven dogs don't make as much noise as that one dog. So how is it fair that I am supposed to have fewer dogs when the idiots next door who can't even control one dog can have more.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. I adopted my 10year-old German Shepherd when he was just past 1 year old.

The breeder had the identical situation that you have. Boen was one of her favorites, but one of his testicles never descended. She would never breed or show him -even though he had won ribbons as a puppy, and was definite champion material-...but loved him VERY much. She said that she was looking for a very special place for him to live for the rest of his life, or she would not give him up at all.

When I went there and met Boen, we hit it off immediatley...I had just lost my previous Shepherd-
and there was a GSD shaped hole in my heart...
The breeder cried hysterically when I left with Boen.

I have kept in touch with her over the past 9 years. We have become fast friends,and I call myself his "third Mother". His first was his doggie Mom, and the breeder was his second Mom.

I send pictures all the time, and we talk on the phone monthly...

Finding your baby a good loving home sounds like a wonderful idea.

BTW-Your pups are all gorgeous!!!

[gaspee]

18. awwww

That is exactly my situation!

And this boy is very unshiba-like in that he WANTS attention. A lot of the Shibas don't like too much attention. They do their thing and want to be in the same room as you, but that's about it.

Tis guy always sings and dances when he sees me and he loves to snuggle up against me on the couch and he likes to sleep with me. The rest of the pack likes to sleep in their own dog beds scattered around the room.

He's all Shiba in that he's stand offish with people he doesn't know and he hates having his nails done or to get baths. So I think the transition could be tough, but that it is most likely best for him in the long run.

If it's a bite issue or a monorchid issue like it was with your guy, I tend to place them by six months of age. With this guy, I just kept denying he was too big.

My favorite excuse was, Oh, he'll loose some height when he settles in at the Shoulders! Ha, see, denial.

Thanks for your answer.

I added a lot more pictures to the sideshow.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Boen's breeder had him at the vet the day before I took him...still looking for that testicle!!!

I think that if you are patient, the perfect person will come along for your boy. Hopefully you will be able to stay in touch and keep up on his life.

I always consider myself very lucky that Boen's other testicle never showed up, or down, that is. If it haddone what it was supposed to do, I would never have gotten to spend the last 9 wonderful years with him...

[Samurai_Writer]

20. I've adopted two dogs who were both around 3 years old at the time

I actually prefer to adopt adult animals rather than puppies. Both I adopted were purebreds, but from animal rescues. They were both great dogs and wonderful additions to my family.

I think that placing your dog in a loving home is a great option, since you cannot show or breed him, and you already have another 2 year old and a 4 month old to both get ready for showing.

PS. Your photos are great! Nice dogs!

[BrklynLiberal]

24. That is an exquisite cat in your sigline.

[Samurai_Writer]

27. That's Sterling, an official DU cat

Lorien was his foster mom and I adopted him from the rescue she works with. He'll be 13 in May, and I will have had him 3 years in May as well.

[BrklynLiberal]

28. I have seen pics of him before. He is just an amazing looking boy.

[MrsMatt]

21. Shiba Inus! I've always loved shibas.

You'd be doing him a great service by allowing him to find a home where he could shine.

I've been considering getting a dog, especially for my son who is 2 1/2 and is very drawn to dogs (as his sister always gravitated to cats). I've done my research and know that a Shiba wouldn't be a good fit in our household. In fact, when we get a dog, I'll probably opt for a senior animal.

[jannyk]

25. I just adopted a 7yr old blind Cocker Spaniel - a week ago - he's

settled in just fine and being blind (cataracts) doesn't faze him at all. His name is Grady and he came from the local SPCA.
He took the place of our Flat Coated Retriever (Sam) that we adopted from the SPCA at 5yrs.
Before that was Jake, a Newfie/Lab cross, also adopted at 5 yrs.

Many people - like us - don't want a puppy - we want a mature companion. Of course though, at that age they should be fairly well socialized and have their potty training behind tham - barring accidents.

Temperment is much more importnat than age, and with a mature dog you now - more or less - what you are getting.

[TankLV]

26. All the time...in fact - we only adopt the older ones...

we belong to one of the many pure-breed rescue groups here in the Las Vegas area...

We especially like to adopt the older Golden Retrievers - 5-10 plus year olds - simply because that's the ones that need it the MOST...

We currently have three.

Whenever the local dog groups get together at least once a year for a giant festival in one of our parks, it's amazing to see all the different dog - and cat - rescue groups and how many there are!

Check online for a listing of all the rescue groups - just google it and soon you'll be inundated with groups all over the country.

what breed do you breed?

Our youngest was only nine months old when we adopted him - he was one of our fosters that we couldn't let go - same with all of 'em now...

the usual age is about 11 or 13 for us - my main guy was 1 1/2 when I got him from our vet do to circumstances at home...

[elleng]

29. Sorry that I can't give you an excuse to keep him!

My family adopted a 2 year old bedlington girl who had been living with her 'family' in breeder/owners home; she did well, and so did we.

The breed is smart, social, loving, and terrier, and I'm so sad that she passed away (some months after I left the house.) I wouldn't hesitate to adopt again, or if you, to find a family for him.

Good luck.

GREAT photos!

[bain_sidhe]

30. Since the breed isn't really "pack oriented"

I'd say, yes, you should. Since he's not a show prospect (IMHO) he deserves to be the light of someone's life, not just one of a pack.

Almost all of our adopted dogs were mutts from less than ideal backgrounds. I feel something like a "calling" to give the dogs who are less likely to find homes a chance. We've lost four over the years, the last of those just in December. All except one were older when we adopted them (Although, "older" is a relative term... Arafel was just shy of one, but had been returned twice to the shelter for "too hyper" issues.)

Alfred T. Great was 5 when we adopted him last January, and had lived in a kennel for all but the first six months or so of his life. Never socialized. No human contact beyond the feeding. He was very, very scared of us... and everything. Not agressive at all... just frightened of any change. At all. (When we got our patio set out last summer, he freaked and wouldn't come on to the patio for two weeks.) Most of the time, when you tried to pet him (or sometimes even talk to him) he'd retreat into this "shell" of "I'm not here, you can't see me. I'm not here, you can't see me" behavior.

Now? Well, he's still a bit skittish, but worlds more confident and interactive. He comes for pets in the evening while we're watching t.v. He comes for pets while I'm typing at the computer. He play-bows to me every time I come out in the yard with him. He goes out to play with Morticia P. Tonks, the almost five year old previously "outside dog" we adopted two weeks ago (and who is *just* beginning to understand that peeing in the house is "wrong" and peeing outside is "right").

If Alfred and Tonks can adjust, your guy can.

(And, as a proud dogmom, I must point out that you can see pictures of some of my furkids here: http://www.webfaerie.com/galleries/kids/index.htm

Haven't put up any Tonks pictures yet. I've taken a few, but she's all black, and lighting is a problem. All my pictures so far suffer from "black blob" syndrome.)