Problem Pound Pup-runs away at any chance. What should I do?

[mod mom]

We adopted a lab/border collie mix dog in mid August who was 6 1/2 months at the time. She has adapted well to our household and her 10 yo canine stepsister.

Background: My older dog is a border collie/pointer mix. She lives to chase squirrels and despite her age, she unfortunately still catches them. We have about a 1/2 acre fenced in yard with many mature trees and bushes. We also live across from a 40+ acre wooded park that runs down to a stream. Needless to say despite the fence, we still get critters. This year alone the older dog has gotten into fights with ground hogs, raccoons and a feral cat. She is always victorious in her battles. We do not encourage this, but when the dog goes out in the evening the yard is pretty dark.

We used to take her and the new puppy to a local park where people let their dogs off leash and the police do not enforce any leash laws. The new pup played well with other dogs but we had to stop taking her when scratches on her belly got infected from swimming in the creek. In the meantime I attempted to practice walking her around the neighborhood with treats to encourage good behavior but if a squirrel appears (which is frequent in our neighborhood) all bets ore off. I tried a gentle leader collar-she hated it and would fight like a bucking bronco. I tried a choke collar and not only did she pull so hard she choked but with one squirrel she pulled me down, then thinking she was loose dodged forward and rickocheted back landing on my head/neck (she weighs about 55 lbs). I can't let her loose because I don't know if she'll return.

She will bolt at any opportunity if the door opens and she is loose. I think she thinks it is a game because she runs to the woods across the street (no dogs allowed) disappears and reappears like she loves you to chase her. Our street is 25 mph and she literally bolts across it w/o regard for possible cars. I'm afraid despite being careful she will get hit by a car. I have always been against shock collars but with this pup, I'm afraid she'll end up getting hit. I've been through training and even spent 2 years with a dog behaviorist with a previous problems dog (different problem-dominance aggression & severe separation anxiety). Does anyone have any advice?

[Walk away]

1. Invest in a nice long chain link run with a top. They even have "no dig"...

guards you can install. It's handy to have because you can put a tarp over it for bad weather.
As far as the gentle leader goes, it's been my experience that even dogs that highly object to wearing one can be trained to walk quietly in one. It might be worth it to seek help from a trainer who has dealt with the problem before. It usually takes a lot of positive reinforcement work for short intervals. If it's done right it will help you gain your dogs attention and help him focus on you. Maybe the place you adopted him from has a good behaviorist that can help pro bono.

[mod mom]

2. Thanks.

[Walk away]

3. I forgot to add that the problem with shock collars...

(besides the fact that it hurts your dog) is that if your dog goes past the electric fence he isn't coming back inside. Anyway, negative reinforcement sucks. Unlike positive reinforcement which needs to be intermittent to work, NR has to be constant. Once that dog figures out how to go past the grid and get rewarded with some bunny a la mode, he won't care if it hurts for 5 seconds to get tomorrow's critter special.

I once saw a Great Dane take the hit and chase an Ice Cream truck through Upper Montclair! He was one happy dog and he never respected the fence again.

[mod mom]

9. I have always said I would never use one as I would never use one on my kids.

I just don't want this dog to get hit by a car after bolting. Her yard is secure and since she needs a massive amount of exercise or she turns destructive inside, I don't think the dog run would work. (not to mention my architect hubbie would never allow chain link fencing in the yard. She really loves to explore and the worst damage she has done has been to bring logs off the stacked pile and gather them up on the back deck. On Sunday, my husband pulled a 15 ft dead branch that had fallen off a tree into scrubbery out onto a patio so that it could be chopped down for burning. Yesterday Lola was dragging this huge branch across the patio and trying to get it up the steps to the back deck. She has boundless energy.

Thanks again! :hi:

[roody]

4. Maybe the chest halter would make training easier.

[Coyote_Bandit]

5. A few things

(1) Have you done obedience training with this dog? If not, you should. Obedience training is a process where the dog learns to submit to you and to trust you - and you learn to trust the dog. You don't have to take a class but you do need to work with the dog consistently. That said, a class provides structure and feed-back.

(2) It is apparent that you have multiple issues: the dog is still a pup, the dog does not recognize you as the alpha of the pack, the dog wants to play, the dog has a natural instinct to seek out prey. The dog will grow up. You can make yourself alpha of the pack and you can exercise the dog more. That prey instinct will remain - though it is not clear just how strong that instinct is since you speak of the older dog catching critters rather than the younger dog.

(3) If that Gentle Leader is properly fitted and used consistently then the dog will get used to it. You might consider that the dog objects to it not because it is uncomfortable but because she recognizes that it is a device that can give you some control over her behavior. I've used a Gentle Leader on a number of dogs and found it very effective - none of them liked it initially. Think of it as a halter for dogs - rather than choking or putting pressure on the neck it puts pressure on the snout and gives you more control over the dog's head. If you don't want to use the Gentle Leader then use a prong collar (which is actually safer than the choke collar you have already used) or try some of the other styles of training harness that are available.

(4) You have a dog you can't control - whether on leash or off - whether in your house, your yard or the park. You need to keep her on a leash when you are in the park. Regardless of whether or not the cops enforce the leash law, keeping her leashed is a matter of respect for others who use the park - and your protection. It is possible that a 55 pound dog might consider a ten pound dog prey. It is also possible that somebody who does not know your dog might consider her a threat and use some mace or pepper spray to keep her away.

I think you have a smart and rambunctious pup that controls you. You need to learn how to assert your authority and how to train the dog. There is nothing to indicate the dog is not trainable.

[mod mom]

7. Thanks. Good advise.

[TorchTheWitch]

6. dog needs training

I'm also confused about which dog is the one with the problem - the new pup or the old dog you've had for a long time.

Always keep the dog under physical control either on a leash or a fenced yard they can't get over or under. With the description of your yard I don't think it's a good idea for them to have the run of the whole thing because of the critters. Critters carry all kinds of nasty diseases and vermin, and you don't want your dogs in physical contact with them. It might be a good idea to invest in a dog run to have in the yard that will keep the critters and the dogs separated.

Some dogs have no big interest in critters while others REALLY REALLY REALLY go batshit crazy over wanting to chase them, catch them and eat them. Seems like both your dogs have the latter obsession. You will probably never be able to curb that deep interest, but you can train them how to behave when they see critters. I envy you the big yard though! What I wouldn't give for a yard like you have! The things you can do with a yard like that! Ooooo! I'm salivating! I'm always looking at other peoples' yards while out walking the dog and I'm just baffled by people with a giant yard that is nothing but a big expanse of grass... no pool, no gardens, no patio, no trees, no nothing. I just don't get it.

Get a prong collar (also called a training collar). Choke chains are dangerous and don't accomplish what they are intended to do (as you have discovered). Here's a lot of good instruction on proper fit and use of a prong collar...
http://leerburg.com/search/searchresults.php?terms=prong%20collar

I definitely recommend the Leerburg site (leerburg.com) for all kinds of dog issues. They have a TON of free information right on the site without having to buy any training info they sell. Your dog(s) are not behaving properly because they don't consider you their leader and you likely just don't know how to go about changing that and teaching them to behave appropriately.

You've GOT to stop the escaping and until the dogs are trained not to escape you have to bend over backward ALL THE TIME to prevent it. You can't just throw open a door at this point but need to open it just wide enough to get a toe in and then slide the rest of yourself through so there is no physical way the dog CAN get through it and escape. If it means putting the dogs in another room or into crates just to open the door to go out, so be it. It'll be a pain in the ass until the dogs are trained to not ever escape for any reason, but it's FAR better than them getting hit by a car, causing someone to crash their car or getting into any other dangerous situations for them and for others.

There's some really good videos on the National Geographic site of the Dog Whisperer show that shows how to teach the dog to give up the space in front of the door whether because you want to go through the door or want to answer the door to let someone in. Prowl around the full episodes section for the Dog Whisperer tv program at the site and watch them all. I also remember they had a few shows on the site about dealing with a dog's critter obsession.

[mod mom]

8. Thanks. The issue is out the front door as someone exits/enters.

Will heed your advise. My dogs have never eaten or attempted. The shaking and carrying around their "prize" is bad enough though. I do worry about coons at night because they can do some serious damage.

RE: the yard...with those mature tress comes weeks of leaf raking and cleaning flower beds. Be careful for what you wish for. ;)

The older dog has an obsession w prey. It started when she was ~ 1yo & caught her 1st squirrel. I witnesses this episode. It happened so quickly. She caught the squirrel and started to play with it, I screamed at her to let it go. In that second she was distracted the squirrel bit her on her nose. She immediately shook the squirrel to death and has been after all prey ever since. I believe she instilled this trait in our new pup. I have done training which works in absence of squirrels/prey, but all bets are off when they appear. If I see a squirrel as I walk her, I make her sit. When she sees it, the sit command turns into the bucking bronco due to the gentle leader.

I guess I know the inevitable, a behaviorist. Luckily we are near a major university, where I brought a previous issue prone dog. That dog (also border collie/lab mix) turned into a great dog but after 2 years of vigilance and seeing a behaviorist. Issue prone dominant dogs have a way of gravitating to me. I guess it's better me than someone who has no patience and might abuse them.

[Walk away]

11. Or a really good training class.

I mean serious 4th level obedience. We used to have one about a half hour north of me and they saved my ass several times. Like you, I am always adopting some kind of lovable problem child. Maybe your university behaviorist can recommend one.

[michaz]

10. How about a gate? Get a taller dog gate in case she is a jumper.

Put it in the doorway of the room that is before the room where the door is and don't let her in the room near the door. If you do, keep the front door locked and when someone comes put her in the room with the gate until they are in the house and the door is closed again.