Can someone fill me in?

[LizW]

I've been working on a local issue and haven't been following the boards closely. I have, however, checked in on all the Dean/DNC threads.

What is up with the sudden renewal of vitriol from the Clark people?

Has Clark announced he's running for something? Did Dean call Clark names or something?

Why all the sudden are the Clark people beating up on Dean again?

I though they liked him for DNC chair because it meant he would not run against Clark in '08? What's up?

:shrug:

[NoPasaran]

1. For what its worth

I blame the full moon

[Tom Rinaldo]

2. There are some bad feelings between certain individuals for one thing

There is both more and less to it than that though. As you most likely know I am primarily a Clark supporter, so I am obviously answering from that perspective. On the inter personal level some things were said in anger that shouldn't have been, which understandably led to people being upset. Distrust in some cases is so high that some are unwilling to grant any benefit of the doubt about the real intentions of those who make or made angry statements about others. That is part of it.

I won't get more specific because I think this part of "the problem" is foolish or tragic, depending on how you look at it. I'm not saying people are not accountable for their actions and statements. I am saying that there is a world out there with a bigger picture than one focused on the actions and egos of some candidate supporters who post on the internet. Sometimes there's an interpersonal flare up. There is always a story behind it but those stories can end up crowding out what we are all here for in the first place. Personally I have been trying harder of late to steer online discussions away from personalities and personal attacks and back onto issues.

Beyond that I am not sure. I know some Dean supporters have expressed a suspicion that many of the Clark supporters who are backing Dean for DNC Chair are just doing so because they hope that way Dean will be out of the 2008 Presidential picture. I know a few Clarkies either feel or once felt that way, which is part of how that suspician arose, but that is not my sense at all of why most Clarkies are backing Dean for DNC Chair, which I personally am doing also. We think the Democratic Party needs Dean and we trust him to do a good job. Anyway some Clark supporters took offense at the suspicion that we have a hidden agenda, thinking that our sincerity has been called into question which made some question, why am I even doing this if I only get flak back from Deanies for backing Dean? That led to some hard feelings. Actually only a few Dean supporters have questioned the sincerity of Clarkies motivations in backing Dean, but you probably have seen that it doesn't take many to stir the pot form either side.

Also there really has been an upsurge in people, Dean supporters or otherwise, posting slams against Clark over the last week, beyond just saying they won't support him for President, calling Clark a Republican yet again, or grouping him with Zell Miller for example. A few proclaimed Dean supporters have taken part in this which, from "our side", helped poison the climate which contributed to some things being said in anger against some Deanies etc. I am not defending the latter, just providing back ground. Very few Dean supporters said anything to counter those anti Clark statements however, which bothered some Clarkies since many of us have been posting positive things about Dean lately.

There also has been an upsurge recently in people commenting on how DU polls are not valid because Clark supporters who are not really DUers swarm over to DU to distort them. A few polls were running recently with Clark ahead which triggered those posts. There are real questions that can be discussed regarding this of course, but many Clark supporters who have been active at DU for a long time, one or two years or more, felt like we were being dismissed as only coming here to inflate Clark's numbers in polls. Again, I am talking about emotional realities, not necessarily objective ones.

I have no doubt that one or more Dean supporters can come up with things that some Clark supporters did or did not do that was upsetting to them also. I am sure that is equally true, but usually we all notice the blows aimed at ourselves more than the blows aimed at others. It's just human nature I think. I know that "our" defensive reaction to some of the above stuff contributed to some Clark supporters, myself included, making many posts over several threads, which made it seem like we were trying to dominate discusson at DU with Clark at a time when serious discussion about Dean's actual run for DNC Chair is called for.

These tense flare ups seem to happen in waves and then they die down. I hope that the waves will start coming less frequently and the flare ups will increasingly become more minor, since I believe there is so much that we really agree on.

Please understand that I hesitated to say any of this at all in this forum. I do not mean to fix any blame on any problems on Dean's supporters. Perhaps most of the blame could be put on Clark supporters. I am just trying to give you feedback to your question from the vantage point of a sympathetic to Dean Clark supporter. I know I do not see all potential sides to this equally well. I would rather not fix any blame at all and instead concentrate on getting beyond this rough patch to areas where we should be able to cooperate.

Then again it just might be the Full Moon, lol

[madfloridian]

4. Tom, there is so much more.

Not going there anymore. But you might want to tell your friends that they have been discovered Clarking the MyDD poll today. And someone is establishing the trackback.

This is just ridiculous. That is Jerome Armstrong's site, and lots of old Deaniacs lurk there.

Have a chat with your friends.

[madfloridian]

5. Tom, you are a peacemaker.

I did not mean to sound snappish at you. I guess I just feel that I have been made to be a bad guy without reason.. That is not your fault.

Keep up the good work.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. Thank you very much madfloridian

There were times when you were cast in a bad light unfairly. I find you always to be honest and direct in your opinions. When something bothers you, you say exactly what it is, you go right to the point and stay on it while some others (I include supporters of all candidates in this) get personally combative instead. You are completely sincere, and you are deeply committed to making positive changes in our Party and country, and for all of those things I value and respect you greatly.

My peace making attempts are less about making peace between us as individuals, though that is a desirable thing, and more about keeping our focus on accomplishing as much of what drew us all into the political fray in the first place as possible. We have real and dangerous common enemies. We may also have legitimate opponents within the Democratic Party, but for the most part the real and present danger to all of us gathers outside of it.

P.S. on edit: The last point is part of why I have so much respect for Howard Dean's willingness to take on the leadership of the DNC if allowed to. He knows he has opponents within the Party but he is still willing to work with and help lead all Democrats through that role. He will seek positive changes in our Party but he is showing a willingness to listen to the concerns of all Democrats. He wants to move us forward without dividing us. It is a very difficult job that he has stepped foward to take on, and I very much commend him for it.

[Larkspur]

3. Some of us don't trust Clark and Clark supporters

I don't trust Clark and he has done nothing to alleviate my suspicions about him.

There was a thread that said "Dean for DNC Chair, Clark for Prez 2008..." or something like that. I chimed in with "I'll never support Carpetbagger Clark" becuase I see Clark, a consultant for lobbyists for the military industrial complex, as a faux Dem until he proves to me that he is a bonafide Dem. Taking his word that he voted for Clinton and Gore in 92 and 96, when in 2001 he ran a fundraiser for Bush and Cheney, is a clear reason why I don't trust Clark. Clark supporters just can't accept that.

[Califooyah Operative]

7. I agree with you on the trust thing,

he hasn'earned it. As far as the fundrasier, are you sure he ran a fund raiser? as far as i know, he attended and spoke at a republican even as a 'bipartisan' as he defended himself at the debates. I don't trust him yet though,

[melnjones]

8. *sigh*

I'm not too sure that Clark people have an issue with Dean himself. Or at least we don't as a group, from what I can tell. Tom's post sums it all up pretty well as far as recent tension between the two groups. Honestly, there ARE many Clarkies who wholeheartedly support Dean for chair, and would do so regardless of whether or not he may be a "threat" to our candidate in 2008. I'm one of those. I can't think of anyone else who would do a better job in the chair position, including Clark himself. I'm all about Clark being president, and there are some other positions I think he'd do really well at, but IMO chair just isn't one of them. The thought had never even crossed my mind that anyone else would ask him to consider it. I've also decided to start spending a little more time at the Dean group board, especially with all the chair stuff going on. It's actually a blessing that I can truly support both Clark AND Dean right now, instead of having to pick and choose. Even though many people are obviously looking foward to 2008, myself included, we have to remember that each and every "possible 2008 candidate" will be doing a lot of work in the coming few years, and we CAN support them in the work they are doing. I am hopeful that recent tensions might calm down and that as a party (or at least as Clark and Dean camps) we might be able to see more than only our differences. I really do support Dean and I admire him in the many ways he has strengthened our party, even during the primaries when he was running against "my" candidate:)

[madfloridian]

9. The same thing is happening now that happened during the primaries.

Denial is not healthy. Howard Dean is running for an office right now, and he running for that office because he still has a passion for our country.

Wesley Clark is not running for anything right now, he really is not. Why was he even mentioned for Democratic chair? Makes no sense.

Yet, even though he is not running for anything, many of us as Dean supporters have been hushed in the general forums rather than fight over someone who is not running. And who is doing a lot of that hushing? Clark people who have no candidate running right now.

And criteria that has been set by his supporters means that we must likewise support Clark for 08. I do not like that idea at all. It is my right. I am no less a good person because of that.

I have been criticized by my friends for not wanting to make a deal for 08.....you support Dean, we support Clark. They can criticize me all they want, but I will not make a deal like that. This is not about Wesley Clark, it is not about him at all right now.

This is about Dean until Feb. 12, and then if he does not get the DNC chair, then it is still about DFA. The worst part of this is the "I like Dean, but I don't like his supporters..." and then all kinds of adjectives are used to describe. The DLC started that theme, and it is being taken up by other Democrats now.

I am a good person, educated, intelligent, was respected as a teacher, respected as a person in my community. I do not have to make deals right now after all the anger of the primaries. I do not. I am a good person. I resent that my party has allowed this to happen to a very large group of people, to be treated as we have been. It is time for others to stop labeling us. The label is undeserved and unfair.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. Of course 2008 and the DNC Chair question should not be linked

In my mind they are separate issues. Dean is running for DNC Chair now and I support him in that as do you I believe. We don't need to agree on who we will support in 2008 in order to agree on Dean for DNC Chair. We can disagree strongly or not have any thoughts on it yet at all. I agree it is wrong to think in terms of deals.

Mutual respect between the supporters of both men would be beneficial for all of us, I believe, if we could somehow pull that off, but I doubt we ever will in every case. Such is life. Shared respect for both Dean and Clark would make it easier for supporters of one man to work well with supporters of the other, but that too is unlikely to happen in every case.

Oddly enough it seems both supporters of Clark and supporters of Dean feel disrespected by others frequently, but in Dean supporters case that is happening on a far broader scale than just these internet boards right now, because Dean is competing to become DNC Chair and some who oppose him like to take swipes at his support base. I am sorry that is happening to you.

I am willing, in some cases on some issues, to cooperate closely with Democrats who strongly dislike Wesley Clark, without expecting hardly anything in return except perhaps a slight effort on their part not to repeat outright lies about Wesley Clark or treat him as if he had not just spent well over the last year fighting on behalf of Democrats against Bush.

[melnjones]

11. I am going to

disregard any comments I have about what you said regarding Clark, because this isn't the forum to make them in. Not that I'd necessarily have bad comments. It's just not the place to make them. I do want to say though that I agree, you have the full right to support the candidate of your choice for whatever position he may be running for. And supporting Dean through this process is something that we even have in common right now. A good friend of mine was campaigning for Dean in NH before the primaries. I respect her quite a bit, and respect her reasons for supporting Dean. We managed to get along quite well even though we were campaigning for different candidates at the same time. It can be done, and I hope it will happen with more and more frequency. Hang in there. It sounds like many Deanies are feeling ganged up on right now (and in the past too). As a Clarkie, I've also felt that way. It's not fun, but do what you know in your heart is right and hang in there:-)

[Capn Sunshine]

12. The most IMPORTANT POINT

is that the Clarkies here are at loose ends , with no actual candidacy or movement to support. They are devolving into teen dream style idolaters. I know plenty of real life Clarkies who supported Clark for all the right reasons, and now enthusiastically work within DFA. On an internet Bulletin Board, these real world exploits don't connect with the " I love Wes, he's so dreamy" types. They view everything as a threat to their "me and Wes" fantasies, and the most visible of these during the primaries was the Dean movement. Most of us knew he was a Clinton stalking horse and no amount of honorable behavior by Clark changed this resentment.

So, pardon me for saying so, but this little cadre of DUers are just barely clinging to reality. Wes Clark's invisibility /lack of activity does not help ; they have to continually post " Clark is Great and here's why" threads that most find tiresome and redundant.

It's no-win for the Clarkies and they see themselves as running some grand internet campaign , failing to acknowledge that nobody knows who the DLC is fer chrissakes, let alone DU.

So there seem to be manifold dynamics at work there, and until they take that first step into the sunshine and leave their screens flickering away in the dark, when they post at DU someone will find them annoying.

[Moderator]

13. Please see this message

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=244x506

Locking.