I am glad we use this forum properly.

[madfloridian]

I hope we never use it to go after others.

I am very worried about this party of ours. I think it is past the point that there will be any coming together. No matter what is said in support of the party and its efforts, there is stuff going on that is scary to me. Hubby walked out of a meeting where people were wearing Kerry (not K/E) buttons, a Democratic meeting. They called Dean a failure, said he was not getting the job done, and wanted him out. This is after 2 and 1/2 months.

The peace rallies here are mostly Kucinich people. We have been active. Now that Kucinich is running again, we are not really welcome, though we don't say anything. My hubby always took pride in these rallies, but he is not really feeling welcome.

I can not even talk about some of it going on here, but I am alarmed. I am serious when I say I wish Howard Dean were not chair. This party is still replaying the primaries, straight down the candidate lines. I did not want him to do it in the first place, but I accepted it. I wish him the best, but he does not deserve what is going on.

Now as I see and read and hear more, I hope for the best. But I expect the worst. It really does no good to say anything at all. People are looking only at 08, and they are blind to 06.

I just read at Kos that Schumer in the DSCC has raised huge amounts, which can not be sourced, at least Open Secrets says not. This could be where the corporate money is going as the people in the party who want a voice are only donating to their candidates' PACs. This is why the DSCC and DCCC get to pick the candidates in the primaries. They have the money. They get to choose the issues and the candidates, because the people who wanted a voice are withholding support.

I feel a chill in the air. Bless you, Howard Dean. You will need it. The DNC for the quarter was nearly all small donations. If that does not continue, we fail. It will not continue if the PACs are the only ones collecting after this quarter.

[melnjones]

1. Just so you know...

There are a few of us not living solely in the primaries...:hi:
Yes, I'll be a clarkie till the bitter end, but I do really like Dean and support him and what he will do in his position. That's why I lurk around on this board as well. All we can do MF is do our part in breaking down walls between the groups from the primaries instead of reinforcing them further. Hang in there and fight the good fight.

[madfloridian]

2. I am losing my will to bother, but thanks.

It is just so overwhelming, what one of our senators pulled here in the race for chair. It is just overwhelming to me that people would wish bad luck.

It is almost like the party is trying to hurt itself from the inside for no rational reason. I wish I did not hear so much, but unfortunately I do.

[katinmn]

10. I'm with you. I respect Howard Dean so much and it wasn't long

ago that everyone on DU was lobbying for him to become chair, sending money, and we pulled together because we thought he was the best choice.

That said, I support getting out of Iraq sooner rather than later. I can support Dean in his role and support efforts to leave Iraq. Iraq is a deal breaker for a lot of people. The answer is to focus on a plan and timeline for withdrawal. Bush isn't going to do it -- it's up to the opposition to push for it.

I learned the hard way not to jump to conclusions or attack someone I once supported just because they said something or voted opposite the way I would have them vote once.

We have good leaders that listen to the grassroots: Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, Clark, Boxer, Reid, and many others. Sometimes they are going to do exactly what we want them to, but sometimes they won't.

I hope calm heads on DU will prevail and we reach out to each other, let go the grudges, and try to work together for the good of all of us. God - I hate to think of the alternative.

[IronLionZion]

19. And I'll be a Deaniac until the bitter end

but I still think Clark is a stand-up guy. They both complement each other well and would have made a fine presidential team.

[janx]

3. It'll be OK, madfloridian.

It was inevitable that things were going to have to adjust. Just wait and see what happens with the state parties.

[madfloridian]

4. I don't think so.

I see how a senator worked here to keep a candidate for chair from qualifying. More, but typical Florida stuff.

Yes, I am discouraged.

And the really sad part here is that there are no winners from that ugly primary season. There are no winners at all. It shows locally, it shows on forums. I once said here that the primary attacks would be hard to overcome, and a lot jumped on me for being sensitive.

I don't think things will change at all. Each group will keep working for their own candidates, they will gripe when Chuck Schumer and Rahm Emmanuel hand pick the candidates for 06. They will yell when the candidates are not standing for things of the people.

I am very discouraged. I just had 12 posts deleted from a forum for a candidate whom we donated to and supported. And we would have supported him again. It was a source of great joy to many that it happened. Why is that? Why is the hatred of each other so intense?

Yeh, I know, it will all be ok. Sounds good. I hope so. But I doubt it.

[shance]

5. Remember the art of politics and theatrics Floridian, what you see is

is more often, not at all what it appears, especially in the world of Republicans.

First question, who benefits from Democrats division?

The Republicans do.

Who would best benefit in causing friction within that meeting?

Republicans would and do.

Who is most threatened by Dean and/or a vibrant unified inclusive Democratic party?

Republicans (and perhaps DLC'ers, which one could argue many DLCers are Republican influenced and/or infiltrators themselves).

Who were these people that made an obvious point to declare themselves Kerry supporters? Why the buttons and the parafanalia? Is that to hide the not so obvious?

Ask yourself this question, how many Kerry supporters have you had actual face to face contact and know personally that would go into a Democratic meeting and disrupt the meeting and call out Dean and knowingly create division when we know now more than ever we need to come together? I know who would be more likely to do something like that.

My bet is pretty obvious. These guys were probably Republicans. I could be wrong, but knowing Democrats and knowing Republicans I know where Id put my money in a bet.

If Republicans pay for protestors, they certainly would want to get their best bang for their buck and infiltrate Democratic/DFA meetings. What greater influence could they make right now than to stir the pot in the meetings that are providing the most cohesion for Democrats right now nationwide? It's a given they are busy working to create sparks between Democrats in our own meetings.

If you are skeptical, tell your husband or you yourself go up and have a chat with these fellows. Get their names. Ask them what elections they've worked on. Ask them specific questions that will give you a better handle who these individuals are and might give them away. It usually doesnt take long before they've either taken off from the conversation or they've been busted.

Its all a game. Especially to them.

In the world of Republicans, things are more often than not, what is hidden behind the curtain.

I was involved in the pro-choice movement in Texas for a while not to mention a couple of Democratic elections. Republicans are always infiltrating and stirring up the pot to badger Democrats into fighting other Democrats. It's procedural policy to them.

Remember, they cannot remain in power unless we are divided and distracted amongst ourselves. They depend on our division. True Democrats would not think of doing such a thing because they realize it would be the worst thing they could do to promote progress. Probably more importantly, as a rule, that kind of aggressive behavior is not indicative of most Democrats, certainly any Democrats I know. In fact, I observe there is more of a problem of Democrats not being assertive enough.

Food for thought.

[madfloridian]

6. They are locals.

Kind of upset about it. I think there is a terrible impatience with Dean's getting started. I noticed a post here about the AZ state party being upset with him as well. I thought I responded to it nicely, but I got deleted in the Kerry forum. I did not realize I would get that to happen if I weren't attacking.

Overall a lot of the locals are pretty much ok with things. We are all so used to being so extremely moderate, and most are pleasantly surprised with the recent stances. I am ok with them, the ones about Iraq and abortion, esp. because I understand what he is saying.

It is not all, but the politics as usual here is keeping so good people from having a chance at office. An example, looks like Senator Nelson's choice for chair will be a shoo-in. Another more progressive candidate was kept from qualifying.

It is not all bad, but there is enough to be uncomfortable. We had some words last year in the Peace group. Thought we had it settled, but not yet.

It is too candidate-oriented to the primaries that have passed. I am not sure there is anything to do about it. In a way, those of us who supported Dean are more able to actually see ahead now instead of back. That is because he has a job to do, and we have to work with DFA as well. It is getting time-consuming just to do the work with that group. I am media person, and we are getting pretty active.

I just sense that there is no change at all since the primaries. None. Some in our area are furious that Dean could not speak at the dinner. They took it personally, which is silly.

It is just a sense of being competitors all the time. It should not be that way this early in 2005.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. IMO It's WAY Worse Here Than in the Real World

People seem relatively united (if still a bit despondent) in my real-world dealings, here in L.A. Sorry to hear it's not the same in FL.

DTH

[madfloridian]

13. Some days I think you may be right. But other days.....

Locally is strange, it really is. They have been comfortable so very long with no confrontation. The Republicans have trained us well here.

Our new DEC head is quite good, though. I am impressed by him and his wife, very impressed. They are pretty open-minded about new people and new ideas coming into the party.

The one thing I see that is a problem, you do not question our leaders. My hubby criticized Nelson the other night at a meeting, and he got some real dirty looks. Nelson knows he won't be questioned, so he votes for the war, the tax cuts, the bankruptcy bill. Some of his votes are fine, but too many aren't. We have to question.

[LizW]

8. "Now that Kucinich is running again..."

What is he running for?

And is this what is behind his snipe at Dean?

An Open Letter to Howard Dean from Rep. Kucinich

Sign the Petition for Iraq Withdrawal

[RogueTrooper]

9. The Kooch had a "bad" primary thanks to Dean

I think Dennis thought he would turn up and pick up the anti-war vote as was his right. He did not count on Dean turning up and walking away with the political capital*. However, I am not sure if having a go at Dean is going to win him any friends.

Don't give up on Howard or his DNC. It has only been two and a half months; and it will take time. Howard Dean is a better politician than people realise ( and a better human being than most of the other fools we have to take seriously ).

As for the Kerry fans: Just call them Republicans. Accuse them of just turning up to the meeting the spread discord. There is nothing wrong with punching hard in politics just make sure it is you who is getting the last swing in ;)












* to paraphrase a Vermont Republican.

[elshiva]

11. Yes, bless Dean, but I think that Kucinich's letter was healthy

criticism of what he thought was the wrong message at that time, not an attack on Dean. Of course that is how some Koochies are taking it, but not THIS Koochie.

The thing is with Kucinich, Dean, Kerry, and Clark is that they are respectable people who want the Dems to be a strong, unified party. Of course, some of their rabid followers will go after the other Dem candidates for a sort of sport. Which is annoying, but nine times out of ten usually the followers mistaking a phrase or two of constructive criticism into a general indictment.

[madfloridian]

12. I think they all went after him at once.....that was the problem.

It was kind of over the hill.

BTW I could hardly sleep last night after what I saw in the Kucinich forum about me. It is locked, but it threw me for a loop. I was accused of doctoring Kucincich's letter and doing in the guise of the DFA because I have the DFA logo.

Anyway this morning I got a nice email from Peter Rothberg at The Nation. He said they edited the letter because the Kucinich person called and asked them to do so. I felt better, but it does not ease the pain of being accused several times like that yesterday. I think I was left hanging in the breeze, and I told Mr. Rothberg that. I told him that if a right wing paper edited after that long a time without saying they were updating....we would be on their butts.

I wish we could all get over the primaries. It is like we are all lined up in neat little rows behind the candidates we supported. It is just too much. It like we are ready to run when at Ready Set Go, only we are starting 3 years ahead of time.

Some of groups' forums here go in their (edit to spell their correctly..lol) private enclave to go after the rest of us. We don't do that here, thank goodness. I posted this in a thoughtful way, showing how all are doing the candidate thing. I don't want this turned into a flamefest here, or they will lock it.

I will never post about Kucinich again. I don't usually do that stuff anyway, but no one was noticing that glaring error. I don't post about the others either.

I don't think things will change. We are too divided. There are harsh words right now in the Kerry forum. I tried to correct someone there and was deleted. There are more now, directed to all candidates. If this turns into a flamer, I will be the first to alert.

[elshiva]

15. I am a regular on the Kerry forum.

I try to correct some of the posters when they go over board, but usually the Kerry board is just basically "Kerry is a good guy because..." Usually not a flame fest and we try not to do it that way.

Dean is a good guy...

[madfloridian]

17. That horrible accusatory post about me is still there.

It is making it hard for me to focus, just seeing it there. I posted the letter from The Nation twice now, hoping someone would take up for me and put it there.

What a dumb thing to be accused of after all. I could not have altered the Kucinich letter if I wanted to do so. I left out the name of the campaign person, but I have it.

The email received by me on May 5th.
Dear_____,

....."We made one change in the letter after
____ ______ in Kucinich's office asked us to because they had gotten
one fact wrong, which we neglected to catch and fix before we published
it on our site.
Thanks for writing and allowing me to clear this
up.
Sincerely,
Peter Rothberg, The Nation

[Capn Sunshine]

14. If you spend too much time in online venues

you get a really warped perception of the discord within the party.

My experience is it's not that bad in real life. Where you are seems at this point to be aberration, not the norm.

IMO, reflecting another poster I know, DU is being used to keep everyone as divided as possible by folks who totally know what they are doing.

It's why the tone has changed. It's intentional. I don't envy the Admin here trying to sort this out; it may well be a terminal cancer.

[madfloridian]

16. Yes, I think you are right.

What is going on here now is pretty much organized. They do know what they are doing. It is happening at another forum which I seldom use, but I noticed it this week.

I think you are right that overall, the internet is worse. However, where I live is just so used to being apologetic for being a Democrat that we may never get over it. We have good DEC leaders, but even they have a fear of offending....that vague taskmaster known as the GOP. It is sort of ingrained now.

[lojasmo]

18. I am too.

Yes, I'm glad we're not undemocratic ayholes.

[elshiva]

20. I love the Clinton quote in your sig and I agree!

:)