Made the mistake of venturing into the Religion/Theology forum for a small point

[villager]

...about poetry in Genesis:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=227484&mesg_id=227484

(if you wanna go there...)

My small point was about the intriguing mystery in the opening stanzas of Genesis -- how it replicates, in a broad yet tangible way, the order of creation (as science later figured it) -- from darkness, to light everywhere, to a water covered planet, to land masses, aquatic life, then land mammals, then people.

I've always liked that these opening refrains are simply poetic versions of what our "rational" sides confirmed later, yet this modest assertion has engendered all kinds of puzzling attacks, as if I was negating science, or am a Creationist.

Posters seemed terrified of embracing the mystery of it, in other words, and are seizing on small points, etc., to prove it's not *exact* science. Which, of course, I never stated it was (nor should it be taken as such).

Why such hostility? Why such a threatened response?

Have fundamentalists ruined any discussion of sacred texts or myth cycles with other people? Sigh...

[Desertrose]

1. R & T is a hostile place indeed

Sad but true that it's not the best place to discuss things unless you are an atheist, basically.

[get the red out]

3. Except for ASAH

DU isn't the best place to discuss things unless you are an Atheist.

[Dora]

14. LOL.

Too true!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. R&T is very hostile to atheists.

[mysticalchick]

2. There's a thread in GD ..

about Roger Ebert dismissing all "new Age" BS. First, like I care at all about what Roger Ebert thinks on new age stuff (I mean, really. Roger Ebert??) Second, I love how people can write off stuff they have no idea about. I jumped in and agreed with someone who said they didn't give an "Eff" about RE and said in the end, I'm the one accountable for my path and it's really no one else's concern.

I expect to get pissy comments about it (as my screen name gives me away) but that's my teeny little effort at wading into the mess.

[Angel Wings]

4. Well, you're much better than me ;-)

I never wade into any of it. I just look at what people report back here about. Maybe one day I'll change my attitude. ;-D

[BuelahWitch]

5. Yeah, I had to hide that thread

All the bigotry and hate was pissing me off.

[mysticalchick]

6. TEE HEE

"So you'd be OK if Obama consulted an astrologer about what to do with healthcare reform?
How about if the Pentagon based a decision about whether or not to attack Iran on remote viewing?

or the TSA used the I Ching to determine whom to detain for further questioning at airports?

What if EPA used dowsing to make decisions about the effect of pollutants on water supplies?"


Hee Hee - they surely won't like what I said about it. IMO, the world might just be a better place if all those methods were used. (Not so much the TSA one, of course)

People are so scared of what they don't know and understand.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. PC stated that Obama is a Master, and is well aware of things at the higher levels.

This might explain his promising "change" as part of his terms of office. Considering the Shift that is only beginning to become evident, it's a very crafty tongue-in-cheek joke :)

[MorningGlow]

8. Gods bless you, Villager

That was just... :scared:

[villager]

10. Thanks, MorningGlow and everyone. I guess I mistakenly thought they'd want to "discuss" things

...like, well, religion and theology over there.

But they are as inflexible as the Fundamentalists whom they imagine themselves different from.

On the other hand, my noting that there was possibly not helpful to the discourse... ;-)

[OneGrassRoot]

11. Geez....

Hostile really is the right word. That's the right word for DU in general during these times.

And MG is right...

:scared:

Oy


You need a :hug:, villager.

:hi:

[villager]

12. Thanks for that. Yeah, you're right about the overall bitter edge to DU these days

I've allowed myself to get caught up in the acid-tongued aspects myself, in other forums here...

Could it be the collective, brewing post-election disappointment that has everyone on edge?

Thanks again for the :hug:

:D

[villager]

13. I went back there to read the last couple replies to my last post. Man, what a nasty crew

very defensive, very quick to name-call.

They agree we're talking about metaphor, then attack the language for not being literal.

I could almost feel myself wanting to "epithet" them right back, but didn't. Took a dignified bow, and now I'm back here.

They seem really really blindered, and rigid.

[Dora]

15. Metaphor is disturbing to people.

Metaphor, poetry frighten people because its very use illustrates that all is one.

[villager]

20. Good point -- saying "poetry" to them is just as enraging as talking about "spirit..."

:-)

[NuttyFluffers]

16. they are dogmatic Materialists, and haven't the foggiest idea that they are.

attempting complex discussion with them, particularly something as delightful as ancient poetic imagery with scientific "mythology" (hey, the original meaning of that word means, "explaining how the world is made and why it operates so"), is pretty much impossible. it's like trying to discuss with a dogmatic celibate why chocolate is like great sex -- blows their minds. they can't even recognize why both are merely different subjective experiences, let alone the mysterious magic to even draw a correlation between.

we are in a stage beyond post modernist, post materialist, post rationalist, nominalist global age... it doesn't have a word yet. closest we got is magical realism and globalist age. even then, doesn't really do it justice. but hey, in such an age you are free to believe as you please, because it's all castles on sand anyway. so if you need an anchor, and are willing to be ruthless to fight for it, hey knock yourself out -- you'll have plenty of company among other fundamentalists. *snicker* i think that's the funniest part about it, too. they are becoming what they despise. hey, we heard karma is gonna be quick acting lately; it's entertaining to see in a way, isn't it?

:hug:

[villager]

21. well said, NuttyFluffers! I *love* the idea of being in a "magical realist" age...

...being as a I am, a "magical realist" myself (I also work as a storyteller, y'see... and thus am able to respond to Genesis on that level, as well, even if in the other forum, "stories" might not pass strict scientific scrutiny!)

And yes, they are absolutely unable to allow for the possibility of different, subjective experiences... I've had several posts there saying, essentially, "okay, we just believe differently about it," and predictably, those posts are also subject to attack...

Ah, the DMs -- the Dogmatic Materialists. Well, we'll wish them interesting visions at least, eh? ;-)

[Mist]

23. "Magical realist"---what a great term! Just feels so appropriate--really reasonates. nt

[OneGrassRoot]

24. +1000. Thought the same thing, thanks for bringing me...

back to it. ;)

:grouphug:

[NuttyFluffers]

25. well, magical realism is more attached to mid-late 20th Cen Spanish literature...

and tends to have ties to a Spanish culture deeply embedded in a Realism philosophical tradition. so when you start including fairies and fantastical coincidences, a la Love in a Time of Cholera, or maybe Pan's Labyrinth, you have something that deals with abstract ideas and concepts as real things, but in a realm more fantastic, which can interact with the realm we live in.

we're more nominalist, as in experience is representation and our representation of things (be it words, ideas, images, etc) are abstractions that are not inherently the real reality. however, we also live in a globalist age where cultures collide and syncretize almost hourly. throw in the decimation of perception of time, space, and substance (aka. nominalism making you challenge the veracity of experience and the methodology of abstract conception conveying such experience) and you have a big mess of experience vying through a multitude of global cultural viewpoints trying to find a suitable world view abstraction to describe such a finite experience, and then be aware at the same time what you are saying is such an infinitesimal aspect of reality as to essentially be false.

basically to say something like "what i see i know to be a lie, but i will still tell you this lie in many colors from new angles." i guess the closest you can say is extracting it to DADAism "The world is shit. We just want to shit in different colors." even then, it's a lie, because it's too divorced from the source.

;)

but magical realism is fun in its own right! ...and just as close as anything else we can say about the current times.

[villager]

26. Magical Realism is indeed fun -- and there are some neglected American "mini masterpieces"

of the genre, that were overshadowed in the 70's/80's boom of magnificent Spanish literature.

Among them:

The Magic Journey by John Nichols

California Bloodstock by Terry McDonnell

Fup by Jim Dodge

[JanusAscending]

28. As a Christian...I feel compelled to tell you this!

Do you want to really BLOW THIER MINDS? Tell them that between the first and second chapter of Genesis, God made the world, destroyed it, and started over with Adam and Eve!!! Don't swallow that? Why did God tell them to go out from the garden and REPOPULATE the Earth? I heard a very interesting Sermon on this, a long time ago, and never forgot it! I can't give you Chapter and verse right now as I have my Bible put away, but it gives a very good reason why we CAN assume that He made the Dinasours and pre historic earth many millions of years before He created Adam and Eve!! Hope I didn't scare you. It's just a theory that really blows one's mind, especially those of the "fundie" breed. LUV, JA

[get the red out]

17. I have been thinking about this

I understand why Atheists are so hostile, it is just that they misdirect their hostility onto anyone at DU that doesn't share their view.

I had an experience on a Facebook group discussion the other day where I posted something that was a contrary opinion to what the religious people mobbing that group were posting (it was a news show group, so not religiously oriented officially). I did not return to the group because I knew none of them would want to see that someone could disagree with the religious powers on that topic. Later I find a message in my box from someone I do not know questioning why I thought Christians had no right to speak up for what they believed. Hilarious, my opinion was strong but in no way questioned anyone's right to speak, all I did was disagree with the Christian majority of posts. What we have in this country is an unspoken rule that the religious are not to be questioned and if anyone disagrees with them then they are simply trying to eliminate their deafening, majority voice and "oppress them". Faced with that on a daily basis I tend to become very resentful at the majority, and the way any dissenting voice is still portrayed as evil and mean by the media, what Atheists go through is worse. I can tell the truth and say I believe in a greater power and get by without fully explaining that without much threat, I can see where they would be emotionally assaulted daily for their honesty.

The bad part is that what many have learned from this is simply to emulate the Christian behavior in our greater society on a smaller scale in places like DU. They wish to be the majority here, or at least the only voices permitted to be heard without assault; in short to do to others here what is done to them in society. It's learning to be a bully by being bullied. It is not positive or helpful at all, but it is what happens as a result of anger due to repression without a LOT of self-examination and self-restraint. I have problems with those myself, but at least I see it as a problem.

[villager]

22. They name call and belittle you, then accuse you of not being willing to "discuss"

...with them, when what they mean by "discussion" is, "take any insult I throw your way, and wind up agreeing with me completely!"

Sigh....

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. I am so, so sorry.

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

On the other hand, becoming extremely quickly discouraged by that forum led me to search DU and find ASAH.

[villager]

19. And I'm also thankful to have *this* thread and the kind responses

...in reaction to the rigid, bitter responses in the other forum....!

[Stevepol]

27. A story is so much better than an abstract theory.

Evolution may be correct, but nothing happens for millions of years. A story happens right now and even a 4-year-old kid can get it.

[JanusAscending]

29. Stevepol....see my post #28

You'll get a kick, I hope!!