Experiment in divination

[icymist]

I've just had a great idea.... since we're all connected through the DU, let's pick a single question and all do divination on it at one specific time. I see that Mercury will start direct on August 15 at 8:51 pm (pacific). Now, let's all get online on Monday the 15th and do a reading, each one with their own different ways of divining. Whoever wants to participate, please post a reply and the type of divination you'll be doing. I'll be doing a Tarot spread.

That leaves picking a question to ask. This question should be precise and to the point without asking in too many words. Any ideas? Maybe we could clarify the Queen of Cups.... or do a reading into the planned terrorism drill that is scheduled for the 17th?

[icymist]

1. Since 9:00 pm (pacific) would be way late on the east coast.....

I propose a 24 hour period for the divination(s).... from 9:00 pm (Pacific)on the 15th of August until 9:00pm (Pacific) the 16th of August. I believe this will allow more to participate.

[LWolf]

2. This is an interesting idea.

I recently unpacked my stuff after a move; my cards have been untouched for several months, and I've been itching to wake them up. They aren't "Tarot," so a Queen of Cups question would be possible, but awkward. What terrorist drill?

I like the 24 hour time period; I'm more likely to be able to participate.

As far as questions, I'll need to ponder this for awhile. I've been so (deliberately) cut off from political happenings since the inauguration that I'm not sure what kind of question to ask.

I'll be back this weekend with questions!

[icymist]

5. Cool! This should be fun.

:hi:

[Pathwalker]

3. What terrorism drill?

[icymist]

4. On the planned 8/17 terrorist drill:

It took me a while to find this thread, the mods moved it....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x51477

[Crowdance]

6. I'd like to participate, but won't be available on the 15th

If you repeat the experiment, or find it's a productive experience worth repeating, I'd like to join.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. A question I would like answered

is about Cindy Sheehan. Is she the blonde woman who will bring down Bush or is Valerie Wilson?

[icymist]

8. We're going to do it in a 24 hour period....

from 9:00 pm (pacific time) 8/15 until 9:00 pm (pacific time) 8/16. You may find some time for it on the 16th. Hope you can make it.
:hi:

[Cleita]

9. Okay, with me.

I'll do a Tarot reading, but have you decided on a question? I need to meditate a bit on the question before I do a throw.

[icymist]

10. So far, the only question I see is about the downfall of Bush.

Let's think about what to ask and have all the questions here by August 15, at noon. Then we'll have to figure out which question to go with. Is that Okay with everybody?

[FreedomAngel82]

11. Sure

Are they just worldy question's right? Nothing personal or anything like that? And yes I think a lot of people would like to know about the downfall of Bush. Heh heh.

[icymist]

12. It's a good question. But, I'm also waiting to see what else is out there.

After all, this is an experiment on the internet.

on edit for grammar.

[yellowdawgdem]

13. maybe it would

be easiest to ask yes-no questions, and something of current interest. Or an ongoing investigation, such as Plamegate. That'd be an interesting one, because Fitzgerald will have to wrap things up within a few months. So we wouldn't have to wait too long to hear about the actual results of his investigation. Since I generally do IChing readings, I'm in the habit of asking really specific questions, like 'will Rove be indicted', or 'will Dubya complete his 2nd term.'

[Cleita]

14. Some problems I have with the posts here.

'Yes and no' questions drive the forces away. If you want 'yes and no' do a Quija Board. I personally have had some scary results with Quija. Sometimes you really don't want to know. Next, you all seem to want preconcieved results that Bush is going to come down. This really clouds results. You have to be open and not influenced by personal desires to get true results.

[yellowdawgdem]

16. yes and no

I think it's more of a difference between IChing and Tarot. I don't agree that yes and no will drive the forces away. But maybe since not everyone will be using the same div method, it would be good to come up with questions that are specific yet open ended. What about something like, 'what is the direction of Plamegate' or ( another Q). What questions do you think would be good for a diverse bunch of people?

[LWolf]

17. The question, and the way it is worded, is important.

If the question is too broad, simple intuition can answer it without "reading" anything. If it is too narrow, it asks the diviner to commit to one of many possibilities. When you are "predicting" something, you're looking into the future, and the future is fluid. I've found that "predicting" gives me an idea of the direction we're headed, as of this minute, but that direction can change as other factors come into play. Kind of like a quick snapshot of the moment, but not a certain "prediction."

If the question you are asking is not a prediction, it can be more specific. For predictions, the question has to walk a fine line between general/specific, for me.

To be honest, I haven't been able to come up with a good question. I'm not engaged enough with the specifics of current events, I guess. I just want to know when we will see the fall of the religious right and their political machine, and if I will get to be around to see it.

[Cleita]

18. Usually, my questions are like you mentioned, like I often

ask, "What is the direction this country is going in?" Or, "What is going to happen as a result of the Iraq invasion?"

If you ask if Valerie Plame is the women who will bring Bush down, first you are making an assumption that Bush will be brought down (we don't know yet)and the result is usually nonsensical because there really isn't a yes or no answer here for the Tarot. There may be a method of acquiring yes or no through the cards but I don't know it so maybe someone can enlighten me.

[yellowdawgdem]

20. being comfortable with what u r receiving

I partly agree with your carefulness in phrasing. Certainly, if you ask a question that is nonsensical because of an assumption, and the assumption itself is wrong. Well then you wouldn't get an accurate answer of any kind. However I've had great success asking yes no questions, though I don't always validate myself enough. Don't always follow the suggestions I get. I really think it depends on each person, and the way you are most comfortable receiving information. I have a friend who mostly does tarot, and she is able to read all sorts of things from looking at a spread. She does not like yes no questions or anything specific, bcause she says it impedes her ability to pull in what she needs from the cards. She also is very bad at reading her own cards, or even reading cards for people close to her. So going by the closeness, or objectiveness factor, it does seem as if we might be too close to the political issues right now to get something totally clear. Although I like your question abt Cindy Sheehan. It doesn't make any assumptions, for sure. I also liked LWolf's question, wondering about the direction of
the current political regime, or something like that.

[Cleita]

21. I agree with your friend. I never read my own cards because

you really can't be objective. I don't read for individuals either because sometimes the answers are something you don't want to tell them. The worst incident I had was a guy who asked me to read for him because he was going through a time of bad luck, lost job, lost family etc. The cards only confirmed that he was a loser and that things weren't going to get better for him because he was his own worst enemy.

I basically told him to look inward as to why these bad luck things were happening to him and to try to find a solution to his problems. Deep inside I knew he wasn't going to change, so I made up my mind right there that I would never do an individual reading again. I only do readings about politics or political figures now and other non-personal venues like that.

[yellowdawgdem]

22. Yeah

that's a good point. It would be hard to read for somebody you don't know, if there are all sorts of difficulties indicated. The political readings are interesting, though politics tends to go the way of least resistance.

[Why Syzygy]

52. I read

for both myself and individuals. Did have a problem chick one time who wanted to make it read out the way she wanted and kept trying to make me and the cards conform to what she already had in mind.

IMO, there is just "lesson" .. "snapshot" .. nothing is predictive, all part of the path.

Readings for myself often confirm what I have a sense of. And something to contemplate.

I leave it to the seeker to take what they will from the reading. When it is meaningful for them .. well that's the Meaning!

Most recent reading, eight of swords, for one of my neighbors. He remembered the card days later, and said it just showed him this and that.

Cards are insight. The seeker knows.
I've read for an online site and get good feedback. That means they get something from the reading to apply to their current situation.

It's all about understanding what the cards are and are not.

[Why Syzygy]

15. well

with all the screw ups this retro has enjoyed, I'll wait until the 15th to reinstall my operating system (xp). I did not dare pursue that during the retro. Even my modem has decided it has a mind of its own and dials out randomly! sheesh .. come on home Mercury ...

baby needs a new pair of shoes

I'm serious by the way.

Divination here will involve . uh . is this actually going to work and where are my install cds.

Other than that, this thread is bookmarked and you can count on me.

[Cleita]

19. I thought of a question that might work with Cindy Sheehan.

Ask, "How will the protestor, Cindy Sheehan, affect George Bush and his presidency?"

Now it will depend on the combinations of the cards that follow as to whether she is the one who will bring him down or not and the cards may point to the actual effect that she will have.

[Why Syzygy]

53. good question n/t

[icymist]

23. Oh my! I sleep in a little bit and find quite the lively discussion!

(I work a midnight job, if you were wondering, and today my neighbor decided to play loud punk music while I'm trying to sleep.) Mercury is indeed still in retrograde. I see two main questions being asked here....one about the Plame affair and the other about Cindy Sheehan. Both are assumed to take down this administration or the Republican party. Tarot seems to be the main divination medium with some doing I Ching. We need a short and concise question for both methods. How about "What are the surrounding circumstances that will bring down the current Republican administration?" Or we could simply say "What will it take to break the current powers that be?"

Tell me what you think.

on edit for spelling and such.

[Cleita]

24. Your first question assumes the administration will be brought

down and you can't assume or you end up with a false question and a false or nonsensical answer. Your second question could work. I would refine it a little bit. Ask who instead of what and define current powers as the current administration. See what shows up. It make take several throws to pinpoint that person. However be prepared for an unexpected answer that says nothing or no one will bring them down.

Remember when back in November we asked "Who would be inaugurated in January" and the cards pointed to Bush as much as we wanted them to point to Kerry even though Kerry hadn't conceded just then and there was talk of recounts in Ohio even after he conceded. So don't let your wishes get in the way of the truth to be revealed. The cards did reveal Bush would be inaugurated.

[icymist]

25. How about....

Who or what will it take to break the stronghold that the current administration has on our country?

My first question was with the understanding that all things come to an end. Also, I may add that with these types of readings, they are like reading a gage. It reflects circumstances surrounding the current situation and that can change.

[Cleita]

26. Obvious answer, an election. It's too general.

Narrow it down a bit like, "How will the power held by this administration be broken?" This gives room for the cards to lead to an answer whether it is the enigmatic Queen of Cups, an election, a coup or another terrorist attack perhaps. I really wish others would weigh in with their opinions.

I don't really do cards this way. Usually, the question comes while I'm occupied with something else and then I do a throw. Sometimes I have no questions for months.

[icymist]

27. Okay. That's a good one. Let's make that the question:

"How will the power held by this administration be broken?"

I like it. Short and concise. Everyone else in agreement?
:hi:

[Matariki]

28. um, gonna throw my .02 in here

what's interesting about doing an experiment like this (to me anyway) would be to ask a question that has verifiable results in a relatively short time frame. a question like "how will the power held by this administration be broken" can give an answer irregardless of whether it *actually* happens or not - and consequently we will never know if the readings are accurate or not.

how about asking whether bush will meet with Cindy Sheehan or not - and what the results of her vigil might produce?

[Cleita]

29. Will Bush meet Cindy Sheehan or not? Yes? No?

Ask the Quija board. The Tarot won't tell you. Actually, I can tell you now. He won't answer her question even if a photo op is staged somehow because he can't. He won't meet with her on her terms. This you can figure out.

[icymist]

30. I believe that we've had enough of hammering out this question.

"How will the power held by this administration be broken?"

That will be the question. We now have a while to meditate into this. This is a good question for Tarot cards and I Ching.

Well, I'm off to work for tonight. See you all tomorrow night. :hi:

[Matariki]

32. respectfully, i wonder what's the point of this question

or perhaps i don't understand the question. are you assuming that their power *will* be broken and are trying to read how it will happen? or just what *would* break their power?

if it's the latter, then what is the point? what would we do with the information? and if no one (or nothing) does the action indicated by the readings how will we ever know if the readings were accurate?

[Cleita]

34. Why don't you just answer your own question, if you are more

comfortable with it. I don't understand why you can't see that letting the cards tell their story is valid.

I personally don't believe the future is written in stone. I believe when I do the cards I am tapping into the present that hasn't been revealed yet. So even though a fact is still hidden, it could be in the works, yet to be revealed, like the Valerie Plame affair.

[Matariki]

39. *sigh* - why is it so damn hard to communicate on the interweb?

what i was *trying* to express is that if you are going to do a divination experiment (emphasis on experiment), it would make sense (to me anyway) to use a topic that would be somewhat verifiable in the near future. the way i'm reading the question is that it is a hypothetical - not necessarily something that *will* happen. does anybody understand what i'm saying? am i completely misunderstanding the nature of the question?

honestly, what are you going to do with the hypothetical information you get? if the cards say (for instance) that the only thing that will bring down the bush admin is big changes in the RNC, what will you do? What if the RNC never changes? Will the results of the tarot readings still be valid? Will you know if the results are true if they are never acted on? Am i making sense?

i am in total agreement with you that the future isn't written in stone. i don't see what that has to do with this.

[Cleita]

40. Forget what I said on this post you just answered.

I posted before you explained how you do things on your post further down. At the time I posted I thought you really wanted to do a yes or no question. Look at the times on the post and you will see. Peace.

[Matariki]

41. well, mercury FINALLY is going direct tonight

so maybe there's hope for the internet ;-)

[yellowdawgdem]

42. I am understanding

what you are saying. I think, too, that communicating on the internet can be somewhat challenging, though it has its good points. I agree that it would be better to start with a question that can be more easily verified - and that the answer(s) given would make more sense. btw I enjoyed your story about doing the early readings, and blurting truthful information out- Lol. Maybe she actually appreciated hearing the truth though.

[Matariki]

31. that hasn't been my experience reading cards

i do yes/no questions all the time - and get accurate answers. i get a lot more information than just yes/no of course, and get a good idea from a reading what the general outcome will (probably) be.

as far as the question for this experiment, i was suggesting that it might be more interesting - for the sake of the experiment - that the question be something that is verifiable.

(ps. why the snootiness? or am i misinterpreting the tone of your post?)

[Cleita]

33. You are misinterpreting my post.

If you read some posts further up, I explain that I don't have any success with yes and not, but if someone does, I asked if they would explain what kind of spread they do. Since I do mostly Celtic Cross, I find open ended questions are better and more accurate for me. If you do yes and no, and you are satisfied with the results, good for you. But since this exercise involves several participants it needs to be a good fit for all.

I apologize if you think I was being snotty. Sometimes my posts are terse because they are written, therefore briefer and more to the point that when I speak. The original poster has decided what question we should use, even though it was my suggestion, so I will go along with her.

[icymist]

35. My agreement too is that this experiment be a good fit for all.

Might I remind that Tarot is not the only divination method here. Besides, the hammering out of the question to be asked is past. We are near the time when Mercury begins direct. Please settle with the question as it has been presented.

[Matariki]

38. thanks for the clarification Cleita ;-)

and no problem, i just didn't know how to take the ouiji board comment.

I avoid the celtic cross when reading for other people for the very reason that you mentioned in your post about the reading you did for that unlucky fellow. I don't like to give people *one* definite outcome, especially if it's not positive.

Generally I use a 15 card spread that shows where the person is heading if they stay on their present course AND shows an alternative - how a different course of action would play out. I also do a lot of 'problem solving' type readings for people. Sometimes folks want to know if they are going to get a specific job or something like that and I do a 3 card reading that gives a yes/no answer (via interpretation). Sometimes though, I think I should get training in psychology or counseling to do public readings - LOL.

The worse experience I ever had was reading at a fair about 20 some years ago (in my early 20's and wet behind the ears) and by the afternoon I was nearly in a trance state. Stuff was just coming out of my mouth from "somewhere else". I was reading for this older woman and I clearly saw her husband dragging himself across the floor to get to the bathroom because he couldn't walk and that she was very overtaxed in having to take care of him. After discribing this to her, she confirmed it and started crying and I blurted out that he was going to die soon and even though she loved him, it would be a great relief to her(!) I can't believe that came out of my mouth (although I think it was the truth). At the time I didn't even notice the inappropriateness of it! The next day though - boy did I feel bad. I've got a better handle on that trance stuff now fortunately. But really, I try to be as pure a channel as i'm able and trust that if someone comes to me for a reading i'm only going to say what they need to hear. at least that's always my hope.

[icymist]

37. Kineta, If you wish to do some type of Tarot reading that has a yes or

no answer, you are welcomed to do so. But, in this experiment, please use the question that was agreed upon during the alloted time. After seeing how this experiment plays out, we may do another. Until then, please bear with us.

[icymist]

36. Everyone participating:

Start the readings at 9:00 pm (pacific time) 8/15 until 9:00 pm (pacific time) 8/16. You may do your reading sometime within this 24 hour period. Post the results below along with a short first impression statement. This will be the question of this experiment:

"How will the power held by this administration be broken?"

Blessed Be.

[icymist]

43. Okay, everyone. It seems you all want to ask a new question.

I'll let you guys decide it and agree with whatever you all come up with. So the 'experiment' is on hold for now. I had to work last night so I'm a bit tired with a little headache. I'll get some sleep for now. Ta ta, Icy

[Cleita]

45. Okay, I'll stay out of it this time since no one liked my question.

I already did the spread though before I read this so I'll post it anyway. It's too good to keep to myself.

[emcguffie]

44. The next time you do t his, I have a Q to suggest:

I guess it is yes/no. But I would like to know whether or not the "truth" will ever become known about the election. Because:


-- I am convinced it was stolen, and 2000 as well.

-- Proving it was stolen can provide grounds for impeaching or getting rid of lots of illegitimate legislation and judicial appointments.

But of course you should do what you agree upon. Just wanted to ask.

[Cleita]

46. Here goes.

In case you didn't read my above post, I had done the spread before I read Icymist's post about doing a different question. It was too good and hopeful for our side not to post it anyway. So here goes. We, as a nation, are the significator.



Question: How will the power held by this administration be broken?

Answer: It will be through the legal system. I believe it will be the result of attorney Patrick Fitzgerald’s investigation of the Valerie Plame affair that will force the truth out of the cabal and they will turn on each other.

Wow! What a great spread. First the Emperor indicates the fascist government we have become. The Wands in the past and present representing commerce and trade or the corporations that have created the empire and how appropriate is it that the Fool is crossing the Emperor. Hey what were the oil men in the present administration called by the CIA guy on Randi, yesterday, the crazies? He meant, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Perlman, Cheney et al and don’t forget *w. All the fools are in one place.

Before the empire and the fool is the corruption and materialism this administration has created represented by the Devil. Now we look to the future. I don’t keep to the strict meanings of the last four cards because sometimes they have a meaning of their own as one unfolds over the other. There is the beginning of an enterprise indicated by the Ace of Wands that is not going well, or it could be several of their nefarious plans that aren’t panning out well because the card is reversed.

First is the wartime President canard, which is being turned upside down by Cindy Sheehan in Crawford, showing what a foolish and criminal endeavor this is. There is still Social Security reform, which old people are letting them know they don’t feel like having their retirement robbed by them. This leads to the Hanged Man, which means that things will be left hanging out there and not moving forward like they would like.

Now it comes to the King of Swords in the position of what we as a nation want. This is a man who could be a lawyer or judge. It leads me to the independent counsel Patrick Fitzgerald who is investigating the Valerie Plame affair. One thing about Fitzgerald that has been revealed is that he hates liars and perjurers. Ooooh, this doesn’t look good for the Bushies since that is the only thing they are efficient at and do well, is lying and perjury.

Now the final card, the three of Swords is usually reserved for broken hearts and love gone wrong. However, in this case it could mean a lot of backstabbing going on. Now with this Fitzgerald guy on the trail of Karl Rove and all associated with him, watch them all cover their own asses at the expense of everyone else, including the Shrub. Remember this guy hates liars. Sit back and watch the fall of the Fourth Reich as they turn on each other to save their own sorry hides. :popcorn:

[lavenderdiva]

47. Cleita, thanks for posting that!

that is just fantastic! I know nothing about Tarot, other than I find it very interesting; I don't know how to read cards or anything, but I have had my cards read a few times. This spread is fascinating, and gives me hope!!! :hi:

[Why Syzygy]

55. Random thoughts

The reversed Ace of Wands in "myself" position .. well has anyone ever seen anyone more inept at creative expression than George W. Bush? No. But since you've made U.S.A. significator, that may mean we as a nation are lazy bums. Go with the (stagnant) flow.

Hanged Man in the "house" position .. that's self explanatory .. giving UP in order to receive. A willingness to let the assholes run the country in exchange for lack of responsibility. Actually the Hanged Man represents a noble cause. An awakening.

The "inside" position what we hope .. King of Swords .. Yes hoping for someone with a BRAIN. Articulate? Just? Ethical? Oh yeah. We long for that.

The Outcome: Heartbreak, Betrayal, Loneliness

Sounds good to me.

[cliss]

48. OK: here's my result. I used our question: How will this

administration be broken? Here's the I Ching Hexagram.

#42 Yi
Changing Lines 2,4,6

There will be advantage in every movement which shall be undertaken.

Changing Line 2: The second 6, divided, shows parties adding to the stores of its subject 10 pairs of tortoise shells whose oracles cannot be opposed. Let him persevere in being firm and correct, and there will be good fortune.

Changing Line 4: The fourth 6 divided, shows its subject pursuing the due course. His advice to his prince is followed. He can with advantage be relied on in such a movement as moving the capital. (Here: seat of the government)

Changing Line 6: In the sixth 9, undivided, we see one to whose increase none will contribute, while many seek to assail him. He observes no regular rule in the ordering of his heart. There will be evil.

-----------------------------------

My interpretation: I see here a fated government, one that was pretty much "ordained" we can see that with the "tortoise shells whose oracles cannot be opposed. This would explain why it's been practically impossible to dynamite the man out. The "Teflon" president like we call him.

Now, in line 4 we see Bush doing what he's always done. He's just continuing in the same fashion. He has obviously given some advice to his "Prince" and the Prince does it. Interesting that the hexagram brings up capital.

In Line 6, here I had the strongest feeling about Bush. He's an evil crook, no doubt about it. LOTS of people want him out, that's certainly clear from this.
------------------------------
Now, notice the people who are covered in this hexagram. There's no mention of a woman, or an outsider bringing him down. The only person mentioned is the "Prince". This is a person of interest. Could it be Bush (since Cheney is the real president) or maybe Rove?

[yellowdawgdem]

62. cool hexagram

That's an interesting hex, although I interpret it a little differently, I hope you don't mind. #42 represents increase, can be financial if you don't mind tortoise shells (just kidding). But can also represent an increase or expansion in energy or support. So, I think your reading could show (partly) that we will break this admin's power through increase. Meaning that we need to hang together as a group, to increase our numbers, our effectiveness. And that we need to continue the fundraising aspects of stuff as well.
Line 2 speaks directly to the increase in funds, in wealth given as a gift. Line 4 seems to relate to the emergence of a leader or leaders who will have the authority to move the capital city. That certainly has been happening. I'm sure that Hillary Clinton figures into this whole leader thing, too.
Line 6 always indicates that the situation is in it's end stages.
Reading it with your interp, speaks of their wealth. And going with that interpretation, we would have to break their financial backing. Line 6 would then show the end of the matter, ie, the end of their administration. Sounds great, doesn't it?
Interesting that 42 resolves to 58, again showing friendly interchange. 2 lakes, lots of water, perhaps even a hint of feminine energy there. As was mentioned by, I think, everybody who did a reading.

[icymist]

49. I'm puzzled.

First, in hammering out our question, we agree to a form that you have chosen. Secondly, three of you decide that that question isn't what it should be, even though we're way late into the period for meditating, causing a suspension of this 'experiment'. Thirdly, you do the readings anyway.

~SIGH~

I'm not sure what to think. Peace, Friends, Icy

[Cleita]

50. Icymist. I explained that I did the reading before I came on line and

found you had changed your mind. I just thought it was an interesting reading and since it was already done I wanted to share. I didn't mean to change anything you had decided. As soon as everyone decides on what question they want, we will do it as you like. I don't consider the reading part of your experiment.

[Matariki]

51. it's a cool idea

i'm sorry if i added any confusion. mercury was retrograde (excuses, excuses). really though, it's a good idea you had. perhaps we should make it an ongoing thing. it was interesting to read the posts from those who read for this question. let's face it, we're not going to get 100% agreement on what question to read. maybe if we just kept hammering them out people can skip the questions that don't work for them. - what i should have done with this one <blush>

[Why Syzygy]

54. A lot of Tarot readers I know

think a question needs to be rephrased in a certain way.

I've found that the seeker's question yields the best results as it stands.

So. What we need is a QUESTION.

Oh. That's what you already said, eh?

How about, "How can we bring the world into harmony and end the current reign of terror"?

[LWolf]

56. Well, I did do a reading.

I didn't engage in the argument over the question, I just took the end result and threw cards to see what I came up with. I don't do traditional Tarot; my cards don't correspond. I don't have pics of them to post for ya. Especially since, by the time I was done, I'd used most of them! I used my most well-worn deck. It had been packed away for 6 months while I was moving, and this is the first read I'd done since moving into the new place. I also didn't do the read during the 24 hour time period; I read at about 6am on the 15th.

I haven't read Cleita's "read" yet, so I don't know how they compare.

I started my spread with *, then asked for people, events and process that would lead to the power being "broken."

It is interesting to note that throughout the read, there were two distinct energies, fire/water, in opposition.

Bush and his admin appeared as fire. While fire has positive and negative aspects, currently * is constrained/controlled by the destructive aspects. The cards that fell for Bush personally included a path of fire, a mangled crossroads with many pitfalls, and, literally, a strangling knot. Also a card that shows the universe weeping.

The people involved in the breaking of power? The cards were all water cards. Mostly female energy. Specifically, I got 2 women and 2 men. I don't know about their identities; that can be subjective based on who I happen to know something about or have heard about. One of the women seemed to be Cindy Sheehan; that one was pretty direct. I'm not sure about the others; there was another woman, a man who is a communicator reaching out to people, and a man with a positive vision. What was clear is that it is not just one person who will bring * down, and that these people's "jobs" are to create unity; to bring people together to work on common shared goals/good.

The events involved? I saw 3. Another war; it looks like Iran, unfortunately. A financial crash/scandal; and a death. I didn't get anything more specific.


The process? It is interesting to note that the cards were nearly all female, water energy here. That doesn't necessarily mean all women, it just means a different energy than that fueling the * administration. I did not get a great deal of detail about the process; it will involve some legal scandals, and even more, a national shift of perspective as the events unfold. It is just as much about people coming together to oppose him as it is about legal actions.

My read says that the process plays out during the next 3 years, and that the power is broken both in the courts, as some of their excesses are restrained, and by citizens in the election booth. As of this read, the next president will not be a republican. He will be male, and he will face a tremendous job of cleansing and healing.

[cliss]

57. Interesting, LWolf.

This sounds very much like what I've been getting. There seems to be a definite feeling that this administration will be brought down by the courts. Public opinion will be the "fire" that's pushing these developments into their proper arena.

I've always had this intuition that the problems we're facing here at home must be solved by Americans. Not foreigners. Not Bin Laden, or the Saudi Royal Family, or the mess in Iraq.

It could very well be a woman, or women. It makes perfect intuitive sense.

I've also read there will be a death in a high place, although I've never had any sense of it myself. But quite a few other people seem to feel that way.

Thanks for the insight.

[LWolf]

59. That's the thing, isn't it?

Much of what I got I could have gotten on intuition without the cards. Some of it I hadn't intuited, though: the death, the women, Iran.

The reading was clear that it would be more than one person, and while the energy was female, there would be men involved as well. Nothing clear on who these people are. I decided that one was Sheehan after laying some extra cards on that position, getting a woman who is: 1. A mourner 2. A loving force 3. Supported by a sky spirit

That could be other women; it might be any of us mourning what has happened to so many under the Bush admin. I was pretty clear that it was Sheehan, though.

The death was a surprise; I hadn't been thinking that way at all. It could be a symbolic death, but the cards seemed to point to a real person, a well-loved person, perhaps at the end of a long life.

[yellowdawgdem]

58. the question as asked by Icymist

I just feel that the question has already been decided, so I went ahead and did an iching on it. It seems that we might do a variety of questions, so I don't think we need to sweat it out so much each time we decide on one. Anyway, I asked how will the power held by this admin. be broken. I got hex 21, which definitely relates to legal matters. I got moving line 3, which speaks of biting into dried meat, finds poison. iow, this can show confronting a bitter experience of the past. It seems to show nothing specific, although I get a visual of
Cheney biting into dried meat and getting a bitter taste in his mouth. It seems that not one thing will bring this admin. down, but numerous things. Repeated things. Risks taken by people like Cindy Sheehan, Conyers, Boxer, etc. I mean, it will take all of us and then some. I mean, the Iraqi insurgency is a good role model for the U.S. They are not in power, yet they are holding off the U.S. and its enormous war machine.

[Why Syzygy]

60. Interesting

Could Ira*q be the "dried meat"? After all it was buscho I who gave SH "poison". bushco II takes a bite ...

I haven't assimilated all the readings here, but remember, the women of Ira*q are soon to be disenfranchised, thanks to so called FREEDOM!

The war that George W. Bush built. His own demise. How appropriate.

edit: oh, btw . this war is ILLEGAL !

[cliss]

61. Here are the footnotes to your hexagram, Yell.

From Legge's translation:

Hexagram #21, Shih Ho
Literally means Union by gnawing. We see in the figure 2 strong lines in the 1st and last places, while all the others, with the exception of the 4th, are divided. This suggests the idea of the jaws and the mouth between them kept open by something in it.

Let that be gnawed through and the mouth will close and jaws come together. So in the body politic. Remove the obstacles to union, and high and low will come together. And how are these obstacles to be removed? By force, emblemed by gnawing, that is, by legal constraints. And these are sure to be successful

Changing Line 3: Line 3 is weak, and in an even place. The action of its subject will be ineffective, and is emblemed by the hard task of gnawing through dried flesh, and encountering besides, what is distasteful and injurious. But again comes in the consideration that here punishment is the rule.
--------------------------
I see some amazing parallels with the results up above. Notice here, "politic" as in politics. You're right: there's the reference, again, to LEGAL CONSTRAINTS. Just like the other results.

In the changing line, notice the reference to 'hard task', 'distasteful' and 'injurious'. Isn't that exactly what Cindy Sheehan is doing? She's sitting in a ditch, and she's being hounded mercilessly. As are a lot of us. We're suffering, under the Bush Hammer.

But notice the beautiful ending: "punishment is the rule". I take that as a very clear indication Bush is going to face judgement.

[yellowdawgdem]

63. thanks for posting from Legge's

translation- it does seem to suggest gnawing through an obstacle, and maybe that's what is going on behind the scenes. Fitzgerald is probably doing some gnawing. You're right that Cindy Sheehan is doing just that, and with just that sort of determination. It is amazing to me, too, that we all have been more or less on the same page with our various readings.
I know that hex 21 resolves to #30, though I am not sure if you can also read moving line 3 for that. 30 speaks about fire doubled. It represents a strong support system, but one that is not long lasting. I wonder if this could indicate that the admin will still be protected by their connections, at some level. If you can read moving line 3, it would also show a decline in support.