I have never given much thought to spirit realms except to hope

[Cleita]

that there is an afterlife and that it's better than here in the material plane. So as an amateur archeology and anthropology buff, I have been reading a book on shaman ism. Now according to this book most shaman cultures believe that there are three worlds. There is the underworld where the ancestors go and some malignant spirits, the middle world, which is the world we live in, and the higher world where the spirits of light live.

Now I do tend to believe in guardian spirits because I have always felt there were "eyes" looking after me and influencing me to make the right decisions in my life. But, for those of you who feel like you see the spirits of the departed, I just wonder why would malignant spirits occupy the same plane? It bothers me. Do we all end up in a sort of hell because we are too low on the spirit scale to occupy the upper realms?

I am interested in what your views on this are?

[Trillo]

1. A paradox of belief?

I don't understand your written connection between ancestors and the underworld of malignant spirits. The implication is that all ancestors are destined for underworld, hence, the day will come when we are the ancestors, and we too will end up in the underworld.

As a student of astrology, I see three metaphorical parallels in one view: planets, stars and blackholes. My lack of comma after "stars" was deliberate. If one reorders them differently: Blackholes, Stars, planets, and miscellaneous space debris such as asteroids and smaller dust.

Under a different view there is a different astrological-chart parallel: what is in the day portion of the natal chart is sometimes referred to as overhead, and what is in the dark portion is sometimes referred to as underneath. The ascendant/descendant line is the horizon, or the ground we walk on.

After our physical bodies die, it cannot be argued that many of those bodies are buried in the ground, but some of our dead are burned, etc. Once a body dies and is disposed of it ends up underneath, even ashes end up covered as they settle to ground and are covered by years of additional dust.

Hence, was this a teaching of physical life and the death that follows it?

"or those of you who feel like you see the spirits of the departed, I just wonder why would malignant spirits occupy the same plane?"

Why would spiritual "sight" imply evil?

"Now I do tend to believe in guardian spirits because I have always felt there were "eyes" looking after me and influencing me to make the right decisions in my life."

A seeming paradox?

Personally, I've found as a human our greatest guidance is found within ourselves, not without. Perhaps this is why the archetypal spirit, when viewed as a separate entity outside of ourselves, is viewed as evil by the shamans of the past.

[davsand]

2. I have heard it described like an onion.

Layers upon layers. Some can see thru the layers, some can move thru them. It takes determination or a gift for it.

I will tell you that I believe to the depths of my soul that we DO continue on after the death of this body. I think we choose (in part) what our experience will be. For those who choose to work thru guilt or anger they will find that experience (rather like the Christian view of hell and torment, I expect.)

For those who choose to forgive and forget--for themselves as well as everyone else--there is a different plane of existence that is joyful. Much like the traditional view of Heaven or Utopia.

I think some spirits do choose to work as guardians or guides, and I do think that it is a natural thing that they can be seen. The only unnatural thing is that we "train" our children not to see them.


Laura

[FreedomAngel82]

3. I agree with you

I can see the other side with the energy mostly and spirits. I would agree with your onion theory and comparisson. There are many different worlds and galaxies and universes. We only know how many and can access them when we're our spiritual selves. And yes, children can see more when they are young. I remember a Halloween or two ago riding home from a party with my brother with someone we know and this woman had a little boy who was a couple of months old or so and he pointed to something in the woods on this road that was in the middle of nowhere almost. I definitley think children can see and sense things. Especially vibrations. And we have to train ourselves again to know that. It's not too hard. I think it's all about training yourself and trusting yourself as well.

[Crowdance]

4. Cleita, a bit of a difference

I live a shamanic lifestyle. I've learned it a bit differently. There are, indeed, three different "worlds"--the Lower World, Middle World and Upper World. The Lower World does NOT correlate to our concept of the Underworld, represented in Western religions, literature and art. It is a place to which we journey, using various shamanic methods, that is peopled by various spirit entities, often in the form of animal totems. We have relationships with these entities in order to gain understanding, to have experiences that teach us and help us to grow. It's a vast, wonderful world, and I've never encountered a malignant being. I have encountered some frightening things, but that is more a reflection of me than of that entity. Some of them tell REALLY bad jokes, but there's no animosity in that--I do that myself.

The Middle World is here, where we are. In the alternate mental state that is journeying, we do encounter different things, some of which may be frightening. These are the beings we will encounter in the "ordinary reality"in which we live our lives, and some which we don't or can't notice in the state of mind in which we conduct our ordinary lives.

The Upper World, for me, is a place where I encounter formerly human teachers, beautiful non-animal spirit beings and archetypes and my ancestors. It is a place of ethereal beauty. It is also, for me, the place where the dead go, both before they cross the bridge for whatever process happens for them after death, and where some of them reside after that process. I'm not strong enough yet to know what that process is (not sure I'll ever be...), but I know they go into it in the Upper World and come out of it into the Upper World for at leasts a while.

My explorations have shown me so much. First, that we are not alone, we are always being loved by these spirit beings. Second, there are no "bad" spirits, only confused or lost ones. Restored to their right place, with authentic purpose restored and without their earthly burdens, all energies are part of the web of being. No beings are less or more than any others; we are all gods and goddesses here.

I hope I've not gone on too long. I hope these words provide you with comfort and optimism.

[Cleita]

5. It does. Thank you for sharing this with me and well us.

It makes me feel that the anthropologists have a lot to learn. It so bothered me that the shamans would consign us to a place similar to Tartarus in Greek mythology.