I had to give up my belief in Karma

[Why Syzygy]

I once was a "christian". Could find no verifiable proof after many years of dedication to the tradition.
Finally gave up on it for the second time about four years ago.

Was reading the thread here about Voudon Queens and light vs. darkness, etc. Made a lot of sense.

One poster repeated a couple of times, if you cannot hex you cannot heal. I always stayed away from hexes, mostly due to my belief in "Karma"... goes around comes around.

But I see no proof for Karma. I do not see that people reap what they sow.

I believe devoutly that my mother figure in this current lifetime was my younger sister in another. She hasn't "paid the price", but rather expects me to continue to pay and pay and pay.

I am without malice. According to an astrology chart a friend did for me, I am considered "a healer". And in fact, that has been the case many times. I'm drawn to the art.

But. Can anyone offer any reason(s) why I should continue to believe in Karma when no proof exists that I can see?

[FreedomAngel82]

1. You think karma is an automatic thing?

Karma doesn't always happen right away after you've done something. Sometimes a karma comes in another lifetime and sometimes it comes in your afterlife whether positive or negative.

[Why Syzygy]

3. Well this has gotten me thinking a lot

What I'm talking about is a kind of "faith based" idea.
I have faith in some things, but not most.
So I found this, for starters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

In Buddhism, only intentional actions are karmic "acts of will". The 'Law of Karma' refers to "cause and effect", but Karma literally means "action" - often indicating intent or cause. Accompanying this usually is a separate tenet called Vipaka, meaning result or effect. The re-action or effect can itself also influence an action, and in this way, the chain of causation continues ad infinitum. When Buddhists talk about karma, they are normally referring to karma/action that is 'tainted' with ignorance - karma that continues to ensure that the being remains in the everlasting cycle of samsara.

...

Nothing is simple is it. This sounds like Einstein's law of relativity .. cause and effect. Well sure! That happens every day. For every action there is a reaction, etc.

But I have just lost all faith in some kind of Universal law of retribution. Think about the Haves and the Have Mores, for example.
Of course I do not judge my human experience based on my checkbook.
But some do.

I'm kinda confused about this. I just do not see how I can continue to honor a 'system' that has no payback. That I can discern.

However, I just told a friend who is ill that I will light a candle for him. So. There's no proof of that either. Except, that's "intention". I sure do believe in "intention". I've seen results.

[LaurenG]

2. Basically I think

"if you cannot hex you cannot heal" is the same in every "mystery" school. You will at one point need to see evil for what it is and close the door where it dwells. Once you are "big" enough energetically, karma ends. Karma ends when you have reached a certain point in your enlightenment and have "forgiven" yourself.

There will always be more to aspire to whether on this plane or another. We've all just begun our journeys.

[FreedomAngel82]

4. Exactly

Karma is simple but isn't as well. Karma isn't like in fairytales where you can make a spell and it'll happen automatically like in tv shows and stuff. Sometimes things might not come back to a person for a few years or a few hundred years.

[stellanoir]

5. My two cents. . .

Having watched certain individuals wreak havoc upon the lives of others, leaving droves of carnage in their wakes and seemingly suffer few, if any repercussions, while others live good and decent lives and are continually besieged with unimaginable hardships which are completely disconnected from their intent or actions, I've concluded the following:

That the expedience of negative repercussions from bad behaviors in any life would appear to hinge on guilt. If one is without conscience and incapable of feeling guilt (aka-sociopaths) then the repercussions are presumably pushed into a future life.

Furthermore, there may be two basic divisions within all of humanity, those who are creating karma, and those who are redeeming karma through both hardship and good deeds.

Then perhaps there may just be a third type who has transcended karma, but they are few and far between and I believe I've been lucky enough to cross paths with some of those types.

I'll always believe in karma. It's just not always measurable in a linear sense.

[mntleo2]

6. Karma And Physics

My take:

Jesus(probably quoting the Talmud)said: "You reap whatsoever you sow..." Physics says: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction..."

I do not think karma happens usually in the same lifetime, that it will happen sometime else in the soul's cycle. Even though the "point" of karma is to learn lessons, one may not learn those lessons as well in the context of the life being lived.

As a christian, I have come to see that Jesus spoke of karma a great deal. Modern christianity rejects reincarnation, but that is because they do not know their roots. Many if not most, early christians believed in reincarnation, and Jesus never denied it even when directly, asked.

Read in John 3 sometime about the exchange between Nicodemus and Jesus (my paraphrase here): Jesus'Pharisee friend Nicodemus came to him in the night and asked for the truth about being born again. One of the legal arguments around mosaic law in the Sanhedrin between the Sadducee's and Pharisees, was over this very question of reincarnation. The Pharisees viewed the law through karmic eyes, while Luke 20 says the Sadducees, "say there is no resurrection (reincarnation)..." Jesus' response was, "Nicodemus, YOU of all people are coming to ask ME this question???"

You could view this exchange in the light that, Jesus was rhetorically asking, of all the people in the world, a high priest, a believer in reincarnation, is coming to ask him whether or not you could be born again??? Jesus never refutes the basic premise with Nicodemus. He only goes further in explaining rebirth telling him you need to be "...born in the water and of the spirit or they cannot enter the kingdom of God..."(John 3:5) Being born of water refers is often considered to mean, being born out of the mother's womb.

Jesus was directly answering Nicodemus' question, IMO....

Cat In Seattle

[Matariki]

7. a common misunderstanding about the concept of karma

is to mistake it for a system of reward and punishment. It seems that people from christian cultures often project a sublimated version of that old 'bearded white guy in the sky' onto the concept -some occult being that is watching and keeping score and rewarding 'good' behavior and punishing 'bad' behavior.

As you pointed out in post 3, votesomemore, karma refers simply to the law of cause and effect.

It's as simple as this - if you litter your neighborhood, and then other people litter because, well, there's trash on the street anyway, then next thing you know your once nice neighborhood has become a shithole. No morality involved.

As a person evolves spiritually and looks inward to find divinity (rather than up in the sky) they also begin to see that same divinity in others. Then the desire to not hurt others comes not from of a false morality - or fear of punishment, but from the true understanding that to harm another is truly to harm oneself.

[Why Syzygy]

13. That's a very good point

The reason I don't go ripping people off is because, frankly, I would be ripping off myself ... etc.

It would hurt. So. I guess maybe those that do that (hint: Gwb et. al.) do have some kind of inner pain. It seems to make them want to grab more. Instead of feeling as I do that giving .. espcially love .. is the path of peace. I guess they are tortured souls.

I truly do believe we are all one cloth. But some of the stitches .. gawsh .. they seem out of whack.

[Trillo]

8. Vampires related to Karma?

I don't know if I've ever thought about Karma a great deal, and I don't know if the following applies, or not.

What I learned in my earlier years is that when I did something wrong, or bad, punishment was swift and harsh: when I did something 'good', it was ignored or otherwise marginalized. As an adult, I avoid doing 'bad' things as best I can, but when I do 'good' things, it seems someone else takes the reward.

I think a metaphor about this is found in our vampire stories: an altered human (inhumane) literally sucks the blood out of another human(e) victim, thereby turning them into a vampire.

[Why Syzygy]

14. This could be a clue

I'm a 'very' mature adult... so they say.
However, my childhood still crosses my mind.

This may be therapy.
I was always punished for telling the truth. Coming clean.
That's wrong. What does that teach a kid? The best lie is the one that saves your butt.

I gave up that habit many years ago. I refuse to play that silly game. It was a survival mechanism which is no longer needed.
Thank Goddess.
Take it or leave it. Oh well. Whatever. Ya know?

I never got any rewards from family members either. They were sometimes amazed at my accomplishments, such as they were.
I made straight As. No one ever said grades were important. No big deal. WELL I GUESS NOT! Who's gonna argue with that report card?

I cannot believe I'm reaping childhood junk right now.
:crazy:

[DemExpat]

9. My ramble-I am very open to the concept of Karma, even though

I do see what seem to be many examples of it not manifesting - the good, kind people seemingly often getting the shitty deals while the arrogant, unloving ones "triumphing" - I still embrace it, although it is on a much longer-term basis than getting your dues in this life.

I also do not see it as reward and punishment, but as a primary spiritual process leading to an ability to be (a state of being) conscious of and open to all that is good, honest, and loving and fair.

I really do think that everybody here on earth gets their load of stuff to work out, to work on and to work through.....even those who we see are wreaking havoc in others' lives, seemingly without consequences.

For me, when I am feeling clear-headed about spiritual issues, (not as often as I would like!) I don't see it as good and evil either, but as conscious and unconscious on certain levels.
So, to me, the "evil" ones will have their moment coming of realizing what they have been and done to others, while those who we see as the good ones getting a raw deal have their lessons to learn from the experience as well - nobody but each soul can know what this is too.

This is perhaps why there will not be any "proof" for you to see, votesomemore, for only each of us can experience and process our lives here. IMHO.

I agree with the poster above who says we are all just beginning too, for I have much duality and blocked energy to work through in this life. When I was young I hoped that I would get it all worked out now to hopefully avoid having to return in another life for the next episode,(this used to terrify me :scared:) but I am now pretty much resigned/accepting of the probability that, even though I feel that I have come a long way this time around, I won't clear out all of my traumas and Karma and will probably have to try again on certain issues next time! :D

Just my musings on this.

DemEx

[Why Syzygy]

15. Blocked Energy

As I've hinted upthread, I've had these "mother" issues.
She was my younger sister in another lifetime.
I'm convinced of that. I'm also the oldest sister in this lifetime. So.

I am resolute that I do not want her tagging around with me anymore.
Have done a lot of personal work to do everything I can to resolve the issue.
I know I don't want her in any more lifetimes.

I'm hoping the next time I come around, I'll be starshine.

My feeling is that I've learned everything I need, but I wish you the best with your journey.

I like the way you described the process:
also do not see it as reward and punishment, but as a primary spiritual process leading to an ability to be (a state of being) conscious of and open to all that is good, honest, and loving and fair.

[Digit]

10. I try not to keep score for others on their Karmic journey

I do believe in Karma, and while on this earthly plane, we are learning that we are all one. Of course there are many who refuse to see this, but I believe they only hurt themselves.

[Cleita]

11. My grandmother once said not look for rewards in life and

that way you won't be dissapointed. She also said that you should try to be as kind as you could because then you will have no regrets.

[Digit]

12. Your grandmother sounds like a woman with wisdom

It almost sounds like the Golden Rule, only more complete and comforting.

[NuttyFluffers]

16. retribution must be exact, and life is a boggling complex equation

instant retribution is not going to happen. well, not that often. i've seen karma kick in many a time, but it's never how i expected it, and rarely overt dramatic displays. but what i have noticed, when i was privvy to witness, it was excruciatingly precise. piece by piece, bit by bit, inconsequential as it may seemed it built to a crescendo that brought the offender to its knees *on what was important to them*. and that's the fascinating part.

be not surprised to see something along the lines of bush being old and watching his loved ones tormented by old age and disease and knowing it was his actions that twisted the knife in their pain, or something equally laboriously complex. in fact, it will be more complex, surely.

i often say life gives us all the space we need to exalt or condemn ourselves. karma cannot run roughshod over free will otherwise karma would end for there would be no actors. free will needs its space too, and that's why you notice some people not getting their just desserts accordingly to how we would like it. that said, when you are most alone, in your darkest hour, just when you least expect it and most unprepared, retribution awaits...

there is a reason for the 2nd half of "eye for an eye." "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, vengeance is mine, and mine alone saith the lord." who better to know the nooks and crevices of the human heart, to tug and pull at just the right places to bring you to your knees. i never doubt karma, even though it might not always be at a speed to my liking. its scalpel-like precision, its artful twisting of the knife, its complete perfection within the confines of a world made impossibly complex by free will is staggering. i do not doubt because i am in awe of what i've witnessed. there is no greater tormentor than 'the one.' it is at the level of divine art.

now, the question is... are we condemning ourselves by the sin of inaction. we have been given free will and wisdom. we know that all evil needs to succeed is for good to sit back and do nothing. we may ask "where is god? why hasn't he fixed this?" ... the answer can very well be "watching you use your free will in the face of evil..."

for *every* action there's a *reaction*. observe the will of american and their *reaction*; for this they shall be judged.

[Cleita]

17. Beautifully postulated.

I'm thinking that our nation's karma is coming into play for our racism, homophobia and sexism, not to mention our past history involving all of this. I think what we are witnessing is the debt collector in our midst.

[NuttyFluffers]

18. which is part of the reason i feel so many maj. arcana lately

there's HUGE (or shall i say HUGH?) players involved -- many of them not human.

all the ills of america have seemed to come up for one last raucous orgy, and the left is not separated and innocent. a lot of complacency, apathy, spinelessness, dispersed energies, escapism, and hesitation have reared their head. we are improving, but all the ills of our history, from the entirity of the spectrum, have come out to play.

one could be tempted to believe something big is coming. ;)

[Cleita]

19. Mine too.

My last readings have also contained many Major Arcana and the very last one many swords, but the last card could be read positively.

[Elidor]

20. You raise a verrry interesting point

Even as someone who believes in immortality and godhead for all, I couldn't swear that karma is real. It is the point at which eastern religions and new age thought alike become faith-based.

I'm open to the idea; indeed, it's quite appealing, but what if the karmic occurrences we see are just the law of averages catching up with people? You can easily make a case that karma applies to some of us, but not to all of us. In fact, for karma to work, there would almost have to be some alternate earth where common altruism is a worldwide form of self-government and decency and goodness are the prevailing attitudes. You'd almost have to have that just to balance out all the negative shit here on earth right now. Some philosophers would probably even posit that karma only applies to those who believe in it and practice it. But I don't mean to get that deep.

I accept a broad karma that is general but not exact. Some, no-many- bad deeds will go unpunished, just as some good will go unnoticed. There is a curve of probability, and sometimes we hit one side of it, sometimes the other. Best to live as if it's real, even if you're not totally sure, because it makes for a more positive life regardless.

[mandyky]

21. Karma is not something that is done TO us

We choose it for ourselves, so that our spirit learns from past mistakes. Perhaps your spirit needs to make peace with your mother figure's spirit or you can keep coming back until you get it right...

I think Karma is misunderstood by many Westerners.

[Matariki]

23. i agree with you

but if you aren't in control of that part of yourself - if your 'spirit' is 'doing things' to your ego, then in practice, what's the difference (between 'god' or 'karma' doing things to you)?

[mandyky]

24. Spirit is real, ego isn't

Spirit just exists, ego is the fighter because it tries to prove it exists. We project our ego onto God, giving Him/Her human ego characteristics. We try to do the same by saying Karma is DONE UNTO us. All of us are in control of our suffering, most of us don't know it. That's why we get to "come back" time after time to try to learn
and bring that knowledge back, and live and touch each other with spirit and love, not fear and ego. That's when miracles occur.

[Desertrose]

22. how can we ever know if *karma* is being played out from one life

to another??

We can NEVER see the total picture of our lifetimes so who is to say it is not being played out? Most times I very much doubt you will see what *you* think people need to reap....

I have drastically changed my thinking on karma over the past 40 some years...I now see it as something we do NOT have to necessarily deal with.

There is such a thing as stepping out of karma. I think it was stellanoir above who alluded to that as well.

Seems to me that if you are judging anothers "karma", then you are still caught up in your own.

Observation and judgement- two different things....

Peace
DR