Do we really want to be the change? Or not.

[EnlightenedOne]

Based on the lack of posts on this thread in GD, I'd say not. Is it the messenger or the message?

I don't know. Does anyone here care?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x291900

[mysticalchick]

1. I don't think there's ....

... a lack of people WANTING to make a difference. My sense is that right now there's so much disillusionment and anger around (fomented daily by the media and those who benefit from an indifferent population) that people feel stuck. Like "no matter what we do, it won't matter".

A shift IS upon us. Whether we like it or not - it's here. People want to resist it because to do something is scary. But in the end, they will realize that it's to their benefit to keep moving (or get run over!).

Poking people with sticks (as I feel your comment above is and the one over on GD) doesn't motivate them to do anything, IMO. It encourages them to poke back - hence that first (negative) comment in the thread. I think your ideas are good ones and yet what I feel coming through the screen is your frustration that people won't/can't do more. When people are in that fear mindset, they just cannot see beyond it. It's only once you release it that you can see a bit more down the road.

I certainly care. I daresay everyone in this particular forum does as well.

[EnlightenedOne]

4. Yes, you're right

My frustration was very apparrent, so I'm guessing that is why I did not get a positive response. I was wondering perhaps if I should have left the conservatives out of it, but I know in order to fight the real power, its going to take a whole lot of people, not just one group.

It just seemed like such an easy thing to do for people on the net to participate in and be active. OGR, or whoever creates the website would have the more difficult work.

I guess seeing what is going on in Egypt and other places just overly motivated me - they're risking their lives and we just sit (it seems like anyway).

Thanks for your response and constructive criticism - I get it.

[mysticalchick]

12. I'm glad you spoke out ...

... because it helps ALL of us focus on the important things. Personally, if I could go around slapping people and screaming "WAKE UP!!!", it'd make me feel better. :) We each walk our own path and learn the lessons we need to evolve. If we hold up our light in the very best way we can, those who need it will find us. (I think, anyway. That's been my experience.)

You are right - we will need people from every political group to help turn this ship around. I don't think you were wrong to suggest that. My cousin is hard-core, old school conservative and she is a worker of miracles. She lives her beliefs and I have the utmost respect for her even though we differ on our political bent. Those people ARE out there. Maybe under the radar? :)

Your thread here is leading to some good conversation and maybe THIS is the place we start. Right here.

:fistbump:

[OneGrassRoot]

2. Oh goodness, do I hear you, EnlightenedOne!

I've vented here at ASAH before, too, about the lack of people stepping forward to DO something.

;)

I've tried to initiate things here at DU before, usually with it sinking like a rock, just as you've said your posts do.

It is very frustrating to see people engaging and interacting about seemingly "fluff" issues, when rarely do they/we seem to unite to do something constructive, or at least make the attempt.

I've come to several conclusions (though they're subject to change as things evolve ;)):

1. For the most part, people engage online as a way to vent, they aren't really looking to DO anything, not at discussion forums such as DU. The venting and connecting can be positive actions in and of themselves, unless of course people depress the living shit out of themselves in the process of venting and getting one another worked up (I've seen many feeding frenzies like this at DU), without moving forward to try to change whatever they're upset about.

As I've always said, anger can be a great catalyst and "stuffing" it isn't recommended; using the anger to move toward what you choose to create rather than drown in the anger seems to be a better way to go, imho.

2. I think there are also many reasons why people don't engage more. It's a very individual thing.

As mysticalchick said, some are afraid, disillusioned, etc.

Some people are truly too tired to DO any more. Daily survival takes all their energy (honestly, I sometimes find myself there as well; I think most of us can relate to that).

Some people are bound and determined to have no hope, and invest their energy in tearing those of us who are hopeful down and trying to change things.

Some are terrified to have hope, just one more time....

Still others are doing things, but in their own way: working on themselves first, praying, holding the light...there are many ways to describe it, but many here at ASAH are holding the space in myriad loving ways. I say they are the "Be'ers" and others are "Do'ers," and one isn't better than the other. Just a different way of making our way in this world.

I believe thoughts have energy, so if people unite in thought to create love, that's some powerful doing. :hug:

Sometimes we go back and forth between being a Do'er and a Be'er. As a rather compulsive Do'er, always reaching out to have others join me (as you are doing), it is hard for me to accept the latter at times, although I genuinely respect it tremendously.

In my opinion, we simply need to keep putting ourselves out there...reach out and invite others, as you did...and see who reaches back. Even if it's just a few people, that's okay.

I try not to get frustrated about it; I REALLY try not to take it personally (though I do get sensitive and worry that I'm agitating others with my suggestions and invitations, etc.). I just keep putting myself out there...retreat for a while if I feel that's what I need to do...and then, when I'm so led, keep extending invitations when I'm inspired.

When Wishadoo goes live again, I will most definitely be bothering people with multiple invitations to DO SOMETHING. :)

Sorry to ramble, but I really do empathize and want you to know that.

:hug:

:yourock:

[EnlightenedOne]

6. I'm with you OGR

Your website and especially the name of it resonates beautifully - I think it would be a beautiful tool to utilize - or what ever is chosen.

Yes, I too go back & forth being a doer and a be-er. I just expect when I'm in the mood to "do" that people should just be ready to join me!! Ha. I think I must have been a Queen in another life, cause I'm certainly doggie doo in this one!! I just can't understand why it is that when I command that something be done, it isn't. Oh well, LOL.

[Ricochet21]

3. People here are making a difference

and do care.

Perhaps many here are sore from posting on GD and getting rudely trashed. That's been my experience.
People on ASAH care deeply, just read some of the stuff for the past months and years. :hi: Good luck with your ideas.

[EnlightenedOne]

7. Yea, it can be rough over there for sure!!

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. Yep, people are still choosing fear. Americans, at least.

See the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, etc. Change is now.

GD, regarding the spiritual, is not yet ready. There needs to be a clear =choice= for people to follow, to support, in which to engage. We've tried Hope, and decided that's not it. We need something to get together on, in a positive manner, beyond voting or political discussion. Wishadoo and other off-the-grid patterns are desperately required until and through the time when people can gather together in such directions.

The question remains: How do you get people to choose something that's good for them, that will give them great joy and freedom? You have to be an example, to show them what they also could have, and simply continue in your joy regardless of others' choices.

[EnlightenedOne]

8. If/When we get it together

I hope you'll join us - I do think it does need to be a spiritual thing and yes, that was certainly my frustration with GD. It just seems all anyone wants to do is bitch. A thread against Obama will get a ton of posts, but one where he does something positive, sinks like a stone. It is a very negative environment for sure. And it does come from fear. things are definitely changing, I just wish people could understand its for the good - and that our energy/intentions are what will be the change we want.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. Join us? In GD? Nice try

;)

[EnlightenedOne]

17. No, no, no, not in GD

if we manage to form a group for peaceful resolution of glaring issues of injustice.

[eilen]

20. Personally EO, bitching about the state of things

and what is happening in politics/government/society is basically DU's purpose. When it is time to politically activate-- during election seasons, DU is a place to discuss efforts and cheerlead each other. Many here on DU are very disappointed in the status quo and the perhaps misplaced faith in the president as being an agent of hope and change-- to find instead, he is very committed to the same system that has brought on the collapse of the economy and the corporate manipulation of almost every level of government. The PermaWar, Torture, Homeland Security measures such as spying on citizens, TSA groping policies, Antiewar groups and medical MJ groups targeted by the FBI, Gitmo, the nature of the Healthcare "reform", the manner in which the economy was "saved" , lack of addressing the environmental disaster in the Gulf, the absence of addressing those most affected by the unemployment and foreclosures-- the last SOTU was a major Trickle Down Speech I ever heard. Millions across the country are losing the most last ditch healthcare they can get-- Medicaid d/t states being totally broke and the Federal government basically abandoned them. Now if the homeowners who were really in trouble were bailed out rather than AIG, the states would not be in as much trouble. If more was done to staunch the loss of jobs, the states would be healthier as would the nation. The big talk of Trade Deals and How They Will Bring Americans Jobs-- well we have heard that one before and it is as patently false now as it was then. And worse, we know this is the best we can do politically in the system as it exists now.


We are all realizing that to get any change, we will have to do it ourselves and many do not know how. We are dispirited and demoralized. It will take some time for the Hope to be reinflated.

[EnlightenedOne]

21. i do understand

I'm not sure why or how, but I am really very much at peace with everything and despite appearances (as to everything you have statede above), i still have complete trust, faith and hope in Obama. I honestly believe he knows exactly what he is doing and he's playing the game the way it needs to be played. I know the big joke on DU is that he is playing 5-D chess. However, if he is, we're not going to realize it for another year or two. I know that Bush/Cheney completely sold our country out - to Wallstreet, bankers, the military industrial complex, etc, and they purposely destroyed the country. They are who are really calling the shots now - they assumed I'm sure that they would be able to cut Obama off at the knees. I suspect Ben Bernake and others are the real power behind the presidency at the moment. But Obama remains somehow popular and relevant, and I continue to believe Obama has our best interest at heart. I can't begin to fathom the corruption he walked into and the abuse he has taken. I remember him saying that the people should have spoken out more and stood up when our rights were being taken away. Many of us did, its just the R's were all A-okay and did not stand with us - because they believed God put Bush in the Whitehouse. It was a well planned Karl Rove strategic plan that was masterfully set in motion. I don't think there is any use in arguing the point, because it is what it is. I will either be right or wrong. I take alot of comfort in the many channelings I read where they all confirm that Obama is here at the very right moment in our history. He's a very old soul and elightened being who came to usher the time we are in. I would never ask anyone to just take that on faith, because I know how difficult it is to believe. I just wish more people could have the peace I have with it. It's also based a whole lot on my gut instinct. Regardless, Obama can't do it all by himself. Whether we scream out for justice because we don't like his actions, or we scream out in order to assist him, it's our duty as Americans to demand justice for ourselves and others. The PTB need to know the natives bare restless. Don't hate on Obama, hate the corruption and wrongness of the wars, and the unjust economic policies and fight against those but try to hold Obama in the light if you can. There is a master plan and it will all be alright - now THAT you can have faith in.

[mysticalchick]

9. Yep Yep and YEP

You hit the nail right there, FWWM. GD is *not* the first place I'd go for ideas. It's like a pit in there, most days. Any kind of idea that remotely sounds "woo-woo" or from hippies with their peace and love stuff gets pretty roundly attacked. And it's all just fear. Really.

This? "We need something to get together on, in a positive manner, beyond voting or political discussion." - is the answer. Wishadoo is a start and God bless OGR for holding her vision even when it's hard. There are others but those who see the bigger picture have to be willing to drag those who don't along until when/if they can walk on their own.

[I Have A Dream]

11. Yes, I care. nt

[I Have A Dream]

13. Many of us are led by the Universe to take small actions...

that make huge differences in individual lives. Not everyone is here to work the same way. The Universe is wise; it didn't give us all the same calling.

I listen to what the Universe asks me to do and try to act on it as well as I can. I feel that this has value too.

I don't expect other people to do the same work that I do. It's my own spiritual path.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. Permit me to butt in please. :)

:hug:

I'd like to express something here, for clarity, since I know ASAHers have sensed my frustration before, similar to Enlightened One's post here.

I have a feeling Enlightened One feels the same way about this issue.

I view GD and ASAH as VERY different groups of people, aside from the spiritual aspect.

Rarely do ASAHers post in GD in a bitching and moaning type of way. It's usually to share information, ask a question, or suggest an action.

Certainly there are many in GD who are the same way as far as how they choose to engage within GD.

However, we all know there are quite a few people who post things each day -- intelligent, thoughtful people -- engaging in "battle" about the ills of the world and how awful everything is.

Any frustration I've felt before has to do with knowing there are many people who are complaining about myriad things every day in GD, yet when something positive and constructive is posted, it sinks.

It certainly has nothing to do with ASAHers. My frustration (whether it's here at DU or anywhere else in my life) has to do with people who complain yet refuse to do anything about changing things, and keep complaining ad nauseum.

I may vent in ASAH but I'm never venting AT ASAHers. If that makes sense. :)

:hug:

[I Have A Dream]

16. The OP seems to imply (to me) that we don't care if...

that work isn't our focus. The subject is "Do we really want to be the change? Or not." Maybe if that hadn't been the title of the OP, it would have hit me differently.

It truly doesn't matter to me if others value my work; I don't even want people to know what I do. However, maybe it does matter to others who read this thread who feel that their calling is to do something else. The small, positive things that they're doing in the world are applauded by the Universe. Angels sing when they do them. It may seem like a small point, but it's really not; it's very important.

I've never felt that you were directing anything at us in the group. I've always valued what you've posted here and am glad that you feel safe venting here. You also know that I greatly value the huge difference that you make in the world every day.

By the way, the transiting Sun is square my Ascendant today. It made me smile wanly when I read the following:

You should watch that you don't come on too strong today and attract conflict with others. Feeling slighted, overlooked, or misunderstood could lead you to seek out attention now. However, the attention that you receive is unlikely to be very positive for the time being. You could have problems relating to superiors, and your vitality may be on the low side.

All of it's true except I'm not seeking out attention. Instead, I want to hide under a rock. (Vitality? What's vitality?)

:hide:

[OneGrassRoot]

18. This is so good....

EO posting a very short question enabled you and I to express something we perhaps haven't expressed to this degree before, not necessarily for one another's benefit, but for those who may be reading.

The small, positive things that they're doing in the world are applauded by the Universe. Angels sing when they do them. It may seem like a small point, but it's really not; it's very important.

:applause:

Each act of love, no matter how seemingly small -- including an act of love for oneself -- has the potential to positively change more lives than we can imagine.

The Butterfly Effect

:hug:

:loveya:


edit for typo

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Yes, Yes, Yes!

[EnlightenedOne]

15. Hi There IHAD

I was just thinking about you this morning and wondering where you have been.

[I Have A Dream]

19. Hi, EnlightenedOne!

I still regularly read what's posted, but only occasionally post myself. I'm going through my Chiron return right now, so I'm not feeling quite like myself lately.

It's good to see you here. :hug:

I do applaud your intentions in the thread that you posted in GD. I should have stated that in my original post.