A Boy, An Injury, A Recovery, A Miracle?

[Kind of Blue]

The Vatican is investigating whether the unexplained halt of the flesh-eating disease ravaging young Jake Finkbonner of Ferndale, Washington, is a miracle after doctors announced the boy's impending death and "prayers went viral."

Here's a link to the story
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135121360/a-boy-an-injury-a-recovery-a-miracle

And a follow up interview this afternoon of one of the physicians, a pediatric infectious disease specialist, questioned by the priest-investigators.
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135638553/was-one-boys-unexpected-recovery-a-miracle

[WolverineDG]

1. well, I know the atheists are getting all bent out of shape over the M word

but fact is, no one knows why the infection stopped when it did. My take is that when even the doctors stand around & go :wow: , perhaps a miracle did occur.

dg

[Kind of Blue]

2. Mine, too!

And I'm feeling a combination of all the work by hospital, family and the boys friends worldwide. One of my favorites is the Love Study conducted by "renegade scientist." "These researchers say typical prayer studies, in which a stranger prays for a stranger from a script, miss the critical element: a personal connection. So they're asking a different sort of question. Can a husband's love for his wife affect her body?" http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104351710

[OneGrassRoot]

3. Love this...can't wait to come back and read/listen...

:hug:

[WolverineDG]

4. I'd like to see the outcome of that study

one of the DU atheists loves to repeatedly post that prayers actually harm sick people, instead of helping. :wtf: Funny how you can be biased about which scientific studies you believe & which you don't, right?

dg

[Kind of Blue]

5. Here you go...

"IONS’ Pioneering Work on 'Distant Healing' Suggests Further Study Warranted" http://www.noetic.org/about/case-studies/love-study/ and "Compassionate Intention As a Therapeutic Intervention by Partners of Cancer Patients: Effects of Distant Intention on the Patients' Autonomic Nervous" System
http://www.explorejournal.com/article/S1550-8307%2808%2900095-5/abstract

[WolverineDG]

6. thanks :)

update: first link says "resource can't be found" :( 2nd link looks good tho, so off to read it

dg

[Kind of Blue]

7. I'm sorry about that, DG.

I can go directly to the article from the Google search page: The Love Study | Case Studies | About | Institute of Noetic Science. I can't figure out why it's messed up when I copy the link at article.

But pretty much, NPR and the actual study does cover it completely :)

[WolverineDG]

8. the abstract in the 2nd link is very promising

Hopefully, they will keep researching & find out how/why this works. In the meantime, all we're going to hear from those who don't believe is "woooooooo" ;)

dg

[Kind of Blue]

9. I know. I know.

as Dean Radin put it in his article What Gorilla, "selective reporting" - of psi evidence - "is akin to dismissing as worthless a clearly visible formation of UFOs flying over the US Capitol, because of a stubborn insistence that the only acceptable data are UFOs landing on the White House lawn precisely at high noon, followed by alien pilots emerging from their crafts, offering tea and biscuits to the President." :rofl:

[kentauros]

10. They are likely deriving the "harm" part

from both the mindset that only prayer is being used to heal, as well as all those other isolated instances where non-allopathic medicine has indeed harmed a patient. Of course, the same cannot be applied against their argument of those isolated instances where allopathic medicine has also harmed the patient. "It's just not the same thing!!1!" ;)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=allopathy">Allopathy has an interesting background, with regards to its etymology, too :)

[WolverineDG]

11. Oh I know, I've been around the block a few times with a few

who insist that the relief I experienced after visiting a chiro for neck & shoulder pain due to a car accident was just "all in my head."

:eyes:

dg

[kentauros]

12. What's really interesting,

is that some of them in their own circle do believe chiro and acupuncture work, and go up against the ones that insist there's nothing going on. Those are the fun arguments! :D

I don't bother arguing with any of them directly; it's too much of an energy drain. Circular arguments and arguing for the sake of arguing are pointless. I do better defending Texas from the bashers ;)

[WolverineDG]

13. I know, I try not to even respond to them anymore

but when they jump in on a conversation I'm having with another poster uninvited, then do their passive-aggressive, double-standard, & obtuse routine, sometimes I can't help myself. :rofl:

Courage, my fellow Texas defender! :hug:

dg

[WolverineDG]

15. ok, I was lazy, just clicked on the allopathy link

:spray: :rofl:

You are a very very bad centaur. :spank:

:rofl:

dg

[kentauros]

17. If there was any money in lexicography,

that might be what I'd be doing now :P

So, you liked the part about the root meaning of "other suffering"? Or perhaps, it was the homeopathic reference? ;)

[WolverineDG]

19. the homeopathic part of course

;)

dg

[Kind of Blue]

14. I think you might like this article.

From "A State of Belief is a State of Being." http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/a-state-of-belief-is-a-state-of-being.php I emphasized the last 2 sentences. It's long but I think worth the read.

"Let me hasten to add that Skepticism and belief represent two poles that are both present, to varying degrees, in any real person. (Throughout this essay I use 'Skeptic' capitalized to denote a confirmed unbeliever, as exemplified by organizations that call themselves 'skeptical.') Even the most hardened Skeptic has moments when he believes someone just because what is said rings true. Meanwhile, the most fervent believer sometimes finds herself saying, 'That couldn't have happened, there must be some other explanation...' No amount of proof can quench the thirst for certainty...

I think deep down they wish to believe that life is more than, to quote Shakespeare, 'a sound and a fury, signifying nothing.' They would like nothing more than to confirm their intuition, which is universal to humankind, that our lives are purposeful and that life events have a meaning. But since any evidence can be interpreted either way if you try hard enough, the craving for certainty can never be met, at least not from the viewpoint of the objective observer. I once heard a leading Skeptic say that he would love to have incontrovertible evidence of life after death, but that unfortunately it just does exist. He'd welcome it though! And I think he was telling the truth."

[WolverineDG]

16. but what I want to know is

how can you be a "skeptic" when your mind is already made up? :crazy:

dg

[kentauros]

18. Technically, they may not be skeptics at all!

You got me looking through that etymology dictionary again, first at their derogatory name for us, "woo" (it dead-ends with no further roots.) And further research into my return volley of "septic" (which leads to many levels and fascinating roots.)

But, I decided to look up the real word for their self-label, and I don't think they really want to use it now:

skeptic
also sceptic, 1580s, "member of an ancient Greek school that doubted the possibility of real knowledge," from Fr. sceptique, from L. scepticus, from Gk. skeptikos (pl. Skeptikoi "the Skeptics"), lit. "inquiring, reflective," the name taken by the disciples of the Greek philosopher Pyrrho (c.360-c.270 B.C.E.), from skeptesthai "to reflect, look, view" (see scope (1)). The extended sense of "one with a doubting attitude" first recorded 1610s. The sk- spelling is an early 17c. Greek revival and is preferred in U.S.

Skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found. {Miguel de Unamuno, "Essays and Soliloquies," 1924}

Woops! :P :rofl:

[WolverineDG]

20. Big *whoops* indeed

:spray: :rofl:

dg

[Kind of Blue]

21. Aww, DG.

:hug: Don't take it for bad. It is crazy and ironic that that Phyrro guy in Kentauros's definition seems more aligned with so-called "new age" thinking than he is to what the meaning of skepticism has morphed into over time.
You hold your own truth because it works! That's all that matters to me. Chiropractic is the only thing that worked for my back for weeks at a time and I'll take it instead of daily medications. The way I see it, if your mind is made up against a method that can possibly relieve pain and does no harm to other systems just because science says it doesn't, then - whatever - to each his own.

I have to say, I was so eager to try Acupuncture but it does absolutely nothing for me though I have friends who swear by it. To each his own.

[WolverineDG]

22. That's my view too

I see no reason why you can't use Western & Eastern (or non-traditional) medicine in combination to help you feel better. When shark cartilage first hit the market, it was called "woo," yet if you talk to a doctor today, they'll be happy to tell you to get Glucosamine/Chondrotin/MSM OTC to help your joints. (guess which of those is shark cartilage? ;) ) I've used that combo for years (the best I found is by Natrol, but it's not carried here locally anymore) & it's really helped my right knee & hip.

But yeah, I've tried treatments that others swear by, only to have them do nothing for me. For example, I know some swear by crystals, but I feel all Charlie Brown around them & just get a "I got a rock" feeling. :rofl: Who knows why one method works for some but not for others? :shrug:

dg

[Kind of Blue]

23. A treat for you, DG.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=245x138721