Illusions

[OneGrassRoot]

I'll come back later to share something very interesting I read which is perfect fodder for discussion here at ASAH, imho.

But one thing that has always been (at least for me) a source of confusion, is the viewpoint by certain groups of people on a spiritual path, regardless of the type of path, btw, about everything being an illusion.

On one level I certainly embrace that. Yes, in the biggest cosmic sense, perhaps everything is an illusion. I say perhaps because I'm of the belief that we don't really KNOW anything for sure. ;) The roles we play, the suffering, the idea that we have any control or power or input into life events...it all could be an illusion.

An elaborate game or even an elaborate dream.

When we're dreaming and we're aware we're dreaming, and we're dreaming something unpleasant, we seek to "wake up" from the dream, the illusion.

We often speak of the same about this life. That we need to "awaken."

Now, my take on that has always been to awaken to what I perceive as the truth that Love is the answer. If we could all awaken to authentic Love, Compassion, Cooperation, etc....much suffering would be removed from our experience and we could create a world -- an experience -- of pure Joy and Love.

For those who espouse the message of "awaken from the illusion" -- if different from my simplistic idea of it above -- can you be very specific about what you mean? If people awaken from the illusion, exactly how do you envision that affecting our daily lives?

Part of this awakening from the illusion, from what I understand from others (and this applies to progressive Christianity and other organized religions as well), is "giving it to God."

Yes, I do get that. To a certain degree. Surrender is huge. Surrendering to the truth that we are not in control and we don't have all the answers. \

Then again, if God is within all of us, we DO have the answers.

So much of this "being human" process is, to me, a delicate balance of all of these beliefs and tools and ways of being.

I also feel the process we're going through as humans is to awaken to the fact that we do have all the answers within, but this requires having an open heart...embracing and embodying authentic Love. Living from the heart. When we do this, we can tap into our intuition and divine guidance that is within.

So, when others advise not to stress about decisions or about suffering or about the state of the world because it's all an illusion, what exactly do you mean? How does that apply in our daily lives if we are to continue to Be in this world and function -- work, create, interact with others, be aware of what's going on in the world?

Please also know that I'm not speaking of "Do'ers" and "Be'ers." That's not what I'm asking at all (at least, I don't think it is).


So......

We do the work so we can be clear within ourselves and receive our own guidance, because the power is within. Check.

Recognize that this is an ongoing process. You're never "done." Check.

When confronted with challenges and the "going within" isn't coming up with answers, at least not in a way we recognize nor in a timely manner (for us), surrender and give it to God. Let it go. Release it. Check.


I am restricted by how I see the world and our place in it. As Rick says, I'm the Virgo archetype (very influenced by Chiron).

I freely admit that I can't wrap my brain around others' approaches to being in the world. Not fully.

It is my viewpoint that there are things that need to be healed (not fixed, but healed); I can do compassionate detachment and do NOT feel I need to save the world, but I can't ignore suffering and imbalance and other aspects of this earthly life, including what I perceive as the suffering and imbalance of Mother Earth herself.

Perhaps that's arrogant or childish or something...to feel things need healed...but that is what drives everything I Am and that I do. I know...that's the Virgo.

I recognize we all respond to this differently and, in our own way -- as Do'ers and Be'ers -- we play a vital role in this human game. It also feels important to me to understand others way of being and doing...because it feels important to me that we DO THIS TOGETHER.

To walk through my daily life saying "it's all an illusion" feels callous. We are here. I believe we are here for a reason.

I can see encouraging others to "wake up" to Love and the way of the heart as a way of healing things.

I can see that, at the core, everything is perfect, as everything serves a purpose, even pain and suffering.

Yet we are here. At this time. A time when we're told repeatedly -- and many of us feel it, beyond any shadow of a doubt as a truth for us -- that we're living at a critical time. A crossroads.

From a message from a Mayan elder (I'll post this in full later):

"Humanity will continue, but in a different way. Material structures will change. From this we will have the opportunity to be more human. We are living in the most important era of the Mayan calendars and prophecies. All the prophecies of the world, all the traditions are converging now. There is no time for games. The spiritual ideal of this era is action."

I resonate with that completely.

To simply say "it's all an illusion" seems -- and, yes, I know this is judgmental, but I'm being honest -- lazy and a cop-out. A way to hide from this life. It can be an illusion, but we still must find our way within the illusion, right?

Of course, I've heard this for decades from spiritualists and religious persons. People I respect. So, I know I'm missing something in their message.

Can anyone enlighten me?

:)

:grouphug:

[OneGrassRoot]

1. delete -- I ended up posting full message as separate OP. :)

n/t

[Kind of Blue]

2. My mind keeps going

to an interview of Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Prize winner from Iran. Cool, calm and collected female judge, founder of the Human Rights Defenders Center.
She was asked at the end of the interview: "Is it discouraging that for all of these facts that you've brought to light and that have been documented in Iran, the situation doesn't improve?"
She replied: "I don't have the right to get tired or to lose hope. Please remember that the duty of a human rights defender is to work when things are not that good. Because if things were good, then I wouldn't have a job, I wouldn't have anything to do."
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135629787/a-nobel-winner-writes-of-peace-in-the-golden-cage

So my take is that people don't say it for the license to be lazy or to cop-out. I think they say and mean it because if you fall under the spell of the illusion you might as well become ineffective. There's no way Ms. Ebadi does not understand suffering and pain as real, but the illusion is that that's all there is and nothing to be done about it, she cannot live with taht, just like you cannot.

I'm a big believer in the skills and tools you've listed above for working through the illusion, so it's hard for me to believe we're all here for a reason, embrace love, help to relieve suffering, pursue joy and at the same time think that saying it's all an illusion is a license to hide from life. It does the opposite. The illusion to me means barrier that must be knocked down.

I hope that makes sense :eyes:

[OneGrassRoot]

3. I'm trying to absorb this...please be patient with me :)

I respond to the "illusion" topic in the manner you sense when it's used in the context of, "Don't worry...it's all an illusion" or "Why do you try so hard? It's all an illusion..."

When you say, "I think they say and mean it because if you fall under the spell of the illusion you might as well become ineffective." I interpret the exact opposite from many of those who have talked about illusion over the years. That's what I'm trying to understand...how people can feel that way.

Forget about "doing" and "being"....what about "feeling"?

EDIT TO ADD:

***

Maybe it's a survival mechanism. To cut off feeling to a certain degree and view everything as an illusion. Really...that may very well be it, and it's a pat answer when people question life, or when people like me ask what can we do, together. "It's an illusion."

People are tired. I understand that. Yet I dare say no one is more tired than I right now. Tired to the bone, to the soul. I wish I could embrace this space of viewing everything as an illusion as many seem to do. ;)

***

Now, in the sense you're speaking of the illusion -- I agree with that. The illusion being that things have always been a certain way and that they can't change. Getting over that barrier as a collective is one goal I work toward.

I've met many who consider themselves very spiritual and would strongly disagree with the statement that "we're here to relieve suffering."

And I can honestly say I understand that we're here to Do and Be in different ways. Often vastly different ways. I've met many -- within spiritual circles -- who feel that suffering is an illusion, or that it's not part of their life mission to be concerned about the collective. (Now, this gets into Buddhism and complicated discussions.)

I don't know about you guys, but I don't know anyone living in a monastery. I only know people who are struggling to survive in our modern world, day by day.

There's something about this that really agitates me -- and it has for 20 years. I'm trying to understand without falling into the typical new age or spiritualist or even psychobabble-speak as we discuss it.

So, thank you for the concrete example, KoB.

:loveya:



edit to add more

[Kind of Blue]

6. Oh, my. I really did not mean to come

across as impatient. I certainly don't have the definitive answer. But I really like following the examples of others who see straight through the barriers and keep chipping away at it, either from without or self-imposed. I think the word has been a positive one for me, removing one illusion after another and being satisfied, till the next one or two come along :D

Wow, I've guess I've never met a spiritual person who doesn't have the emotional capacity to feel and be moved to help another. No wonder you ponder this expression! I do get how one can consider their own suffering an illusion, I know mine do when I've worked past them though nothing outward may have dramatically changed. But I can't extend that to others who are in need. How one can rise above suffering of any magnitude and not lend a hand is beyond me. It just feels too Republicanish.

Speaking of which, I think I may know what you mean. I didn't give this newscast another thought except that she's so phoney. But the disconnect is disturbing.

Ms. ROBIN KELLEY (President, Sedona Tea Party): I'm a psychic, a clairvoyant, an energy healer, and I take people out on the rocks to help them empower their lives, which is exactly what the Tea Party is about is empowering each of us as individuals to participate in the government.http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135638557/tea-party-up-in-arms-over-ariz-freshman

She arranged a town hall to give the elected Tea Party rep hell for things he has not done and done in Congress. It's funny that being spiritual and all, she couldn't figure out why he voted against shutting the government down until he explained to her that our troops would not get paid and the myriad of other harmful results.

[OneGrassRoot]

7. LOL....no, no you didn't come across as impatient at all!

I know I did. Because I AM impatient and agitated about this.

There are two types of people who have espoused this view, in my experience, and I've been a seeker most of my adult life. The type of person you mentioned is one. There are phonies all over, people not being honest with themselves, so they can't be honest with others. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising when it occurs within spiritual circles.

However, there are others I respect tremendously, and it's when they say it that I think, "Hmmmm...." Because I know they feel and care, and it has nothing to do with being a phony at all. It has to do with me not understanding. It is offered as well-intentioned advice, but it falls flat with me.

And I want to understand why it falls flat.

Perhaps it comes down to having such VASTLY different worldviews that I can't comprehend it. This is much of what Rick speaks of -- the different archetypes -- and how we see the world through these prisms.

I want to understand the other prisms in order to find the commonality. There must be ONE thing -- one action, one belief -- that the majority of people on this Earth can unite behind. Some pure truth, followed by simple action. No semantics. (I'm so disgusted with semantics that I could just spit. Can you tell?) :rofl:

It's one thing to have a different worldview from right-wingers, but when I seem to have a significantly different worldview from those I respect and feel a connection to, I get really confused and want to understand.

I don't like that sense of disconnect from those I love and admire.

I don't know what I expected when I posted this, but I have a feeling I'll end up merely confusing myself even more.

Falling down the rabbit hole once again in my quest to understand.

;)

:loveya:

[bigmonkey]

24. I can think of one characterization of a "pure truth".

I read the Dalai Lama once compress it as "All beings want to be happy and to avoid suffering." I thought at the time that applied to me as well as it applies to rotifers.

So, the question is, how does that work out in practice? I was happy, for instance, when I wrote that last sentence in the previous paragraph, I thought it had a great sound to it. Then I realized that not everybody immediately knows what a rotifer is, and I thought that I was being too obscure, referring casually to a microscopic lifeform that fascinated me that other people wouldn't know, so I thought I had to re-write the sentence, but that way I lose the happy.. (continue spiral of discomfort in this space) It seems in practice that the situation is complicated. That's part of what I like about his sentence, that it's abstracted enough to actually apply universally, leaving the question of what happiness is and what suffering is aside.

But, OGR, I can sympathize about the impatience with the use of "It's all an illusion" as a shutdown. I think it's a misuse, but it's hard (and perhaps inappropriate!) to judge when people are using it so. One of my spiritual friends said something like this to me once: Say a person is talking to you, and they say, in some way, that they have been working their attachment to their physical body, and they feel that they've finally been able to work through and drop that attachment. How should you reply? By immediately slapping them hard across the face, or stomping hard on their foot.

Why do this? My friend said that it would provide a good opportunity for enlightenment. I'd hasten to add that he also said it was risky. It's certainly a risk I've never taken! But I think it points to what you're talking about - Seeing everything as an illusion, but leaving that realization as something that only applies to the things "out there", rather than applying it also to the personal space (either physical or internal), can be an energy-absorbing barrier of sorts. The person inside can be left untouched and unresponsive to the world, a world that has just as much life as the person inside.

I think the real value of a properly-applied "it's all an illusion" is deeper, and more intrusive. It's like the king who wanted the yogi to give him something that would keep him from despair when in trouble and from getting unbalanced when joyful. The yogi gave him a ring engraved with "This, too, shall pass." For me, the real value of that is that it applies to literally everything, that it entirely undoes itself, but this is not a comfortable result, quite the opposite. I get antsy when I see someone applying it as if they'll just wait out the problem, as if they have a safe, uninvolved space to wait in.

Sorry for the write and run. I'll watch this conversation as I can, but I'm in and out today.

[MorningGlow]

4. How's this for a bit of serendipity, OGR?

I was ruminating on your post, wondering what the proper answer was and how to put it. I went through several possible options, but got caught up in the semantics and so didn't post.

Then I took a minute to flip through a catalog that came in the mail and saw this quote on a t-shirt:



Hmmm... ;)

Oh yeah--it's at http://www.northernsun.com. If it speaks to you and you wants one...

[OneGrassRoot]

5. ;)

Nice. :hug:

Yep, I'm done with semantics.

;)

[MorningGlow]

8. Have to admit I'm still puzzling over the topic

Are you referring to spiritual people who seem to be "hiding behind" a statement that this world is all illusion (with the implication "so why bother helping people")?

If so, perhaps they aren't really implying that, but instead may be talking about how this world is what we create, and our personal situations are also created by us while we're on the Other Side. Perhaps they're talking about people who "choose" to suffer (at least as we perceive it) according to their soul contracts?

Of course that's no excuse to NOT help people, but they might just be acknowledging that some suffering is by choice--whether we view it as karmic or simply a neutral soul experience. :shrug:

On a lighter note, this is today's Pearls Before Swine:

[OneGrassRoot]

13. You and me both...

:rofl:

I've puzzled over it for decades!

I had to re-read my initial OP to see what I can zoom in on to clarify things more. I threw a lot of things out there for consideration and discussion, and confused things in the process.

It's what I do. :eyes:

You wrote:

Are you referring to spiritual people who seem to be "hiding behind" a statement that this world is all illusion (with the implication "so why bother helping people")?

If so, perhaps they aren't really implying that, but instead may be talking about how this world is what we create, and our personal situations are also created by us while we're on the Other Side. Perhaps they're talking about people who "choose" to suffer (at least as we perceive it) according to their soul contracts?

Of course that's no excuse to NOT help people, but they might just be acknowledging that some suffering is by choice--whether we view it as karmic or simply a neutral soul experience. :shrug:

It's not so much that group of people, as I understand the concepts behind their belief, which you've outlined here nicely.

I'm more focused on this:

So, when others advise not to stress about decisions or about suffering or about the state of the world because it's all an illusion, what exactly do they mean? How does that apply in our daily lives if we are to continue to Be in this world and function -- work, create, interact with others, be aware of what's going on in the world?

It's easy to SAY it...that it's all an illusion...but when giving advice to someone struggling with a challenge, and say "It's all an illusion" and "The Universe is in charge" -- they lose me.

Can I tell the electric company that if the Universe deems it so, I'll pay the bill, or tell them that my owing them is an illusion?

:rofl:

I'm being a smartass, but you know what I mean.

While I feel I grasp many of the spiritual concepts -- and generally resonate with them -- they honestly don't help me very much. Not these types of concepts, at least.

I have always sought a "bridge" of sorts....a way to practically apply it to our day-to-day lives.

And I really feel most people are like me; hence the frustration with religion and even the New Age paths.

When I ask for practical application -- in a regular person's life, not a monk's life -- I rarely get a reply that I can understand or apply.

(How I view the spiritual community/spiritual teachers -- of any faith -- is another conversation altogether. ;))

So, I'm left thinking there are two possible reasons for this:

1. I'm not getting it; I'm missing something or misunderstanding or misinterpreting something, or

2. Those who offer this advice don't really understand it either, beyond the surface of the wisdom.

To me, it's akin to "Say three Hail Mary's and four Our Fathers" and you'll be fine. It's meaningless.

:shrug:

Now, full disclosure: I have REAL issues with teachers and gurus and "leaders" of all types -- I'm all about Average Jane/Joe and believe we all have wisdom and don't put anyone on a pedestal (in fact, I'm more inclined to knock them off). So I could really have a wall up and not see things as openly and clearly as I could or should.

I honestly don't know. All I know is that this is one of the "triggers" throughout my life, and I'm trying to understand it.

:hi:

[BanzaiBonnie]

18. If you want practical application...

Marshall Rosenberg did a comparative religion study when he started looking for answers. He wanted to get to the heart of what it means to be human and find something that worked in making connections between people. It's the most helpful approach I've found yet and I've been looking all my life too.

The psychology he developed behind NVC is astoundingly simple and makes it easy to see why we do the things we do and why others do what they do. We all have needs. We have strategies to meet those needs. Some are successful strategies and some a really poor strategies.


The tool of NVC might be helpful in seeing some things more clearly. I know how much this has enriched my life and I hope it does the same for others.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. OMG, that cartoon is HILARIOUS!!!!

:rofl:

:applause:

[kimmerspixelated]

9. This is a fantastic topic for discussion.

I will be thinking of an answer to post while I make dinner tonight. I love it!!!

[OneGrassRoot]

14. You may want to read my most recent replies....

'cause I stirred up more food for thought, I fear. ;)

:hug:

[Ricochet21]

10. I really think apples and oranges are getting mixed up

In India, great saints meditate all day while devotees do everything for their practical needs. Yet the Yogis ARE getting something "DONE". It's all relative.
Other people are just daydreaming, getting "nothing" done. But, who am I to judge that?

Indeed, many people do throw around the phrase "It's all an illusion" in too cavalier of a manner and I do not think that is what is meant.

While in a body, certainly MOST OF US have to work to bring in the crops to eat, or hunt, etc.
But, when the doer gets' too attached to the doing, that's exactly what Christ and The Buddha warned against. They kept pointing to it all just happening thru us.

Pisces is the archetype that is opposite Virgo and can really get caught up in listlessness, and laziness altho both are simply value judgement and have no true inherent meaning.

If you have a job jar, and you solve the first job, you get a sense of satisfaction. Virgo.
If you have pulled out job # 450,000 same thing. Where and when does it ever end.

Physical reality exists as far as we agree to it, some people don't see a physical reality such as the saints. They are not deceived. So, I think it's safe to say that for most of us, the physical world is real and needs work, yes.
It's all a relative point.
If enlightenment is truly your goal, the physical illusion must be transcended. That's my take, apples and oranges
I know there is much more to this difficult discussion.

Since all of Buddhism is based on relieving suffering and the #1 reason they say we suffer is because of attachment, that I believe is what is meant by being the doer but not; being of the world but not in it.

It's a paradox, I've discovered since I've had to dissect each of the 12 signs so thoroughly these past two years.
It is real but it's not.
It is real on one level of reality and means nothing on another which is the basis of the Piscean archetype.

The Virgo-Pisces polarity is the strongest of the zodiac and is clearly based upon this argument.


Virgo it's there, everything matters
Pisces it's not there, nothing matters

Arguments about "what matters" is a useless subject since it's all a value judgement. Nothing has inherent meaning except for what we apply meaning to.

Clearly a balance of Virgo-Pisces is the ultimate answer to the zodiac.
Acting as if everything matters with compassion at the same time knowing in the larger scheme of things it doesn't.

I recommend a book my friend, Gina Mazza, wrote called "Everything Matters, Nothing Matters" available at Amazon.

It addresses this whole subject.

I personally believe that there are many, many folks who hide behind this "all is an illusion" thread, but I cannot judge. I'm am always 100% wrong when I do because I don't know what another soul truly needs.

These are some thoughts anyway. Maybe my whole post is meaningless, I don't know, it doesn't matter, but it does.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. ....

"Maybe my whole post is meaningless, I don't know, it doesn't matter, but it does."

:spray:

:rofl:

;)

I have to get away from myself for a while. I wear myself out when I post such questions...questions that I've pondered for DECADES.

I shall return.

:hug:

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Actually....

As you said, this is a difficult, complex subject, so there's a lot to explore.

I wanted to address this nugget, however:

"Acting as if everything matters with compassion at the same time knowing in the larger scheme of things it doesn't."

I identify with that. I actually feel I balance things better than some may think, based on what/how I post, and in spite of the difficulties I am encountering.

I know I'm (understandably) lumped in with the Virgo archetype of doing, doing, doing...fixing, fixing, fixing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

Yet I must say that I'm not that clearcut...not any more. Over the last few years I've learned to go with the flow....allow....release/surrender....stay in the moment...ask for help/insight, and not try to do everything on my own. All traits I value and wish I would have embraced much sooner.

That said, I am never able to stray far from wanting to alleviate suffering (that is my driving force, I've realized, though I often seek to do so in unconventional ways), which brings me back to what can I/we DO? True. I'd have to cut myself off from Humanity altogether for that to happen (and sometimes wish I could). :)

So, even though I do keep the larger scheme of things in mind, and do view this "being human thing" as an elaborate play of sorts, I'm in the play. I'm playing a role, interacting with others playing a role, and these roles are very real -- with real feelings and heartaches and joys, and a real set (Mother Earth) that must be maintained.

While I intellectually acknowledge this separation -- this illusion -- in my day-to-day life, I'm very immersed in the role...and the suffering...and the desire to create a new play.

;)

Good stuff.

:loveya:

[BanzaiBonnie]

17. Interesting that Miss OGR, Virgo and I,

BanzaiBonnie, Pisces, have some bit of attraction for working together. It's like some completion of myself that I see in her. Not sure what she sees in me, but it may be the same sort of thing that she sees, that I complete a part of her.

When I was given the name She Who Walks Strong and Steady by the Great Buffalo, part of my vision was that I saw all the ancestors in a great circle. I could not see the beginning, nor could I see the end. And the words I heard were, "earth tribes united."


So, Tom Shadyac, is taking the "I Am" the documentary around the country. He got nearly the whole hour this week to talk with Oprah about the film.


His whole focus is that we, all people, need to start a conversation.

There are three points of reference for this conversation:

We are all connected.

We are hard wired for cooperation.

If you don't follow your heart, it can destroy you.


Those three precepts are what tie us all together.


I believe that "illusion" refers to possibly a number of things. Number one is the illusion that we are separate. It's all about Tich Nath Hanh's words:

We are here to awaken to the illusion of our separateness.




As for the psychic tea party woman, someone called her a phony. Do you know this or are you guessing? Are you, perhaps, making a judgement without knowing the whole story? What if she's not a phony, but just another person who is doing the best she can?

Can you have compassion for her? She is working within the illusion of everything she believes to be true. And most of what we've all been taught is wrong.


Now, imagine this, she is a conservative, yes? She is also psychic, yes? We need her to develop into the very best HER that she can be.


We are all developing cells in the body of humanity. Truly. Fractal, repeating patterns of development show this. So recently, we learned that the brains of people who are conservative and progressive are different. They are still parts of a whole system. Both are needed for life to succeed in moving to the next step. Look inside the human body for the patterns. Look at humans for the patterns that they are repeating. Some will be organs that fulfill specific functions. I think I am part of the developing nervous system.


The judgements that we keep making on one another keep us from seeing what we are as a whole. They keep us apart. I am not free from making judgements on others, but I'm working on this new way of being with other people. Nonviolent Communication is a HUGE key to this.


Now there may be other illusions, but for now, focus on what's within you. The illusions you are living under. Get free from as much of that as you can and then you'll be free to follow your heart rather than what someone else told you to do, or be, or say, or whatever.That's the best I can do. And this subject is so complex, I've only touched it at one place on the bubble.

[Kind of Blue]

19. I called her a phony.

Personally, I really believe that she is a psychic and does exactly what she says she does. And I also think indirectly and/or inadvertently she is developing to the best that she can be and perhaps helping the democratic cause along the way.

Yeah, it is my judgement call because she, to me, up to the point of explanation from her congressman, was causing harm - more of the wonderful Compassionate Conservatism at work. It's like a priest providing the sacraments to his congregation while molesting children. Oh, yeah, pay me to do this spiritual work for you while I work to shut the government down. It's phony and IMO it should be addressed directly for what it is.

I don't like pretending that just because someone comes wrapped in spiritual clothing means they're consciously or unconsciously not up to no good. So in the sense of the OP that some spiritual people use the word illusion so lightly, yes, this woman is the closest that I come to understanding what the OP means.

If the greater understanding of spirituality is an inner path that eventually leads to connection to the whole and one also does not mind seeing disadvantaged kids go without lunch or healthcare, seniors thrown to the mercy of the insurance companies because the budget must be balanced at all costs, then IMO there is a serious disconnect that must be called out in no uncertain terms. But I don't negate her psychic abilities a bit. I, for one, am thrilled to pieces that she's understanding the havoc her political principles could cause. One Tea Partyer growing more compassionate, next :rofl:

[Kookaburra]

26. I agree KOB

I've met quite a few folks who are gifted with psychic abilities, and they do not operate from a place of love, but rather a place of greed and ego. They definitely have the abilities, but I strongly question their motives. It is my opinion that no one with truly selfless motives would partner up with teabaggers. Just my opinion.

[Kind of Blue]

30. Thank you, Kookaburra.

And that's my working conclusion that psychic does not necessarily equal spiritual. Nor does spiritual necessarily mean compassion. And if we shy away from using "judgement" or good sense when someone claims spirituality, I can't imagine how many more tragedies there could be due to people who use spirituality for pure gain regardless of suffering they cause. Like James Ray. Jeeze, the man had been causing physical, psychological and spiritual injuries for years, and one woman's suicide (in my city) linked to a seminar of his she was attending months before the lodge deaths. No one on their spiritual path, to my knowledge, said a word about him nor spoke to the poor woman who many noticed was upset. So I don't think judgement or not a stellar opinion of all claimants is a bad thing.

As the Iranian human rights activists, in my first response to the OP, said in her interview, "If you can't eliminate injustice, at least tell everyone about it."

[OneGrassRoot]

20. Link to read more about NVC:

(I know you've mentioned it before BanzaiBonnie, but reading this page was the "aha" moment for me...this is FABULOUS! Are you far enough along, do you feel, to lead informal online "classes" of sorts...a daily task or helpful tool from NVC? I see why you're drawn to Wishadoo, as this is much of what I try, perhaps clumsily, to convey, and certainly don't always embody myself, though believe in and work toward.)


http://www.cnvc.org/Training/NVC-Concepts

Nonviolent Communication (NVC) is sometimes referred to as compassionate communication. Its purpose is to:

1. create human connections that empower compassionate giving and receiving
2. create governmental and corporate structures that support compassionate giving and receiving.

NVC involves both communication skills that foster compassionate relating and consciousness of the interdependence of our well being and using power with others to work together to meet the needs of all concerned.

This approach to communication emphasizes compassion as the motivation for action rather than fear, guilt, shame, blame, coercion, threat or justification for punishment. In other words, it is about getting what you want for reasons you will not regret later. NVC is NOT about getting people to do what we want. It is about creating a quality of connection that gets everyone’s needs met through compassionate giving.

NVC offers practical, concrete skills for manifesting the purpose of creating connections of compassionate giving and receiving based in a consciousness of interdependence and power with others. These skills include:

1. Differentiating observation from evaluation, being able to carefully observe what is happening free of evaluation, and to specify behaviors and conditions that are affecting us;
2. Differentiating feeling from thinking, being able to identify and express internal feeling states in a way that does not imply judgment, criticism, or blame/punishment;
3. Connecting with the universal human needs/values (e.g. sustenance, trust, understanding) in us that are being met or not met in relation to what is happening and how we are feeling; and
4. Requesting what we would like in a way that clearly and specifically states what we do want (rather than what we don’t want), and that is truly a request and not a demand (i.e. attempting to motivate, however subtly, out of fear, guilt, shame, obligation, etc. rather than out of willingness and compassionate giving).

These skills emphasize personal responsibility for our actions and the choices we make when we respond to others, as well as how to contribute to relationships based in cooperation and collaboration.

[BanzaiBonnie]

22. This IS an important conversation OGR

Not meaningless, or you would not have brought it up. Be assured that others have the same question. You are just the one brave enough to wade into the stream.

[kimmerspixelated]

28. When we look in the mirror,

and we see the elaborate arrangement of electrical molecules, and perceive it as a face, is the face we see, the same face everyone sees? Is the reflection... our perceived... image, what we think of ourselves?

Is blonde or red or black hair, really those colors or just a reflection of the reflection?

[BanzaiBonnie]

38. I've always wondered about that

The question I ask is, "Is the blue I see the same for everyone else?"

[kimmerspixelated]

55. YES! Well said with fewer words to boot! n/t

[SheilaT]

16. I likewise can get very impatient with the

"It's all just an illusion" folks. Even though I understand what they are talking about, while we are here on this planet, in these bodies, it is not an illusion. What we do here matters. It matters a lot because it helps shape us in profound ways, and will affect our future lives in ways we can't know about here and now.

At least that's my take on things.

Oh, and I often tell people that I am not conventionally religious, but my base line belief is that we are here to help each other.

[OneGrassRoot]

21. Major therapy for me within.... ;)

In crafting a reply to KoB and BanzaiBonnie above, I had several revelations. I'm sharing this, not because anyone really cares, nor should they...:rofl:...but because I started the OP and because I just wanna dive into this now, as this always helps ME understand myself more.


I essentially believe the vast majority of humans are "good" at heart. That innate goodness is hidden -- intentionally, unintentionally, consciously, and unconsciously -- by fear. We're ruled by fear, and have been for ages. Fear manifests as anger, hatred, cruelty, selfishness, greed, destructiveness and all manner of ills we see all around.

Yes, I get angry at those I perceive as causing harm to others, to Mother Earth, and most especially to themselves. When I try to understand, others strongly suggest I get away from trying to "change" anyone.

I think about this a lot. I don't feel I'm trying to "change" anyone in my attempts to engage and understand those with vastly different worldviews, whether it's someone I perceive as a mean-spirited right-winger, a mean-spirited liberal, or a "phony" teacher/leader/politician/healer (yes, that's a judgment call, based on tapping into my own intuition and observations). Instead, what I seek to do is -- somehow, though I haven't figured out a clearcut way and maybe NVC will provide tools which work for me -- help open hearts. I do this by trying to identify the fear, find our commonality...our humanity...and through compassion and, in my case, brutal honesty coming from MY heart, try to heal the fear.

When that happens, they change themselves and are led more by love, not fear.

I have to insert that as I typed the line above, I could hear the various spiritual persons over the years chiding me that, "They're perfect as they are, no one needs to change. It's your perception that something needs healed." THAT is what I'm talking about and the type of thing that sparked the OP.

On a soul level, I agree; on a human level, I call bullshit. And, yes, I am judgmental about feeling many "rise above" the human level, as far as really trying to address our human condition, not because of some altruistic or divinely spiritual reason, but because they're AFRAID TO BE HUMAN.

WOW, I've never typed that before....and that's HUGE. LOL. Dayum, this is another post that is like therapy for me. :rofl:

My resentment of so-called "leaders" and anyone else that OTHERS have put on a pedestal has to do with me feeling -- and I realize it is my own opinion and feeling, nothing else -- that they are AFRAID TO BE FULLY HUMAN. This comes across as them being "above" we mere earthlings who are struggling to find our way, but I feel strongly they are the same -- they've just chosen to avoid it and thus say, "It's all an illusion" and they deceive themselves-- intentionally or unintentionally -- and make the rest of us feel "less than." (edit to add: While I believe some do try to make others feel less than, often it's a matter of us taking that on ourselves; we know we must allow it for that to happen and we must be responsible for our own feelings and reactions. ;))

YES, that's the crux of my OP.

If there were a tagline for my life's mission, I'd have to say it's "to empower others and alleviate suffering." I believe that when people strip away all the layers of dishonesty and illusion about themselves, they can then be authentically empowered. When this happens, all manner of suffering can be erased from the world, imho. It's not about how others perceive us, it's how we perceive ourselves. We don't even have to be honest with the rest of the world as far as revealing our inner truths, but we do need to be honest with ourselves.

When this occurs, we have more genuine UNITY. I don't experience Unity often...very rarely, actually...yet I do seek it. There are quite a few people I know who have followed a conscious spiritual path who don't seek Unity on a human level -- instead they recognize it on a soul level (this speaks to Thich Nhat Hanh's quote about the illusion being our separateness).

I fully embrace The Divine and believe there is so much more than we now see and experience. So much more. In the spiritual circles in which I've traveled throughout my life, most seek to "ascend" -- rise above -- transcend the human experience. I respect that and I most certainly understand it.

HOWEVER.... ;)

It comes back to the reality that WE ARE HUMAN. WE ARE HERE ON EARTH. We are spiritual beings having a human experience, so aren't we here TO HAVE that human experience? To recreate it be much more loving and joyful, full of more grace and ease?

Not run from it or try so desperately to transcend it, but dive in to unite and raise the human experience altogether?

I often say people bug the living shit out of me, but oh my, I soooooooo love Humanity. I have tremendous faith in Humanity. I really do. I'm actually tearing up as I type that, for it is a profound truth for me. I haven't found many who have a profound love for and faith in Humanity.

I realize now that they are the ones I'm desperately seeking....

Of course, ALL of this is an ongoing process within MYSELF as well...identifying my fears and working to remove them and moving forward from the Heart, In Love. And always reminding myself that my power is within.

I get discouraged and retreat; I get scared of about survival, my own and those I love; I get frustrated, sometimes angry, that others don't feel what I feel and see the world as I see it (huge downfall of mine and what I consciously seek to address). I vow to not try to understand anything or anyone any more, but I always find myself back on this track of trying...agitating others, though not intentionally, as I go.

Because I LOVE HUMANITY. And I know we can DO SO MUCH BETTER AND ELEVATE THIS HUMAN EXPERIENCE by joining together, by tapping into the Divine within, the better angels of our nature, by opening our hearts. And by not being afraid to BE human.

:loveya:

:grouphug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

23. Beautiful heart expression OGR

[Ricochet21]

34. I think that

being fully human is being fully divine and vice versa

[OneGrassRoot]

35. I think that sounds great in theory....

but it is rarely practiced.

Personally, I'm tired of the words, words, words from spiritualists and religious types. I want to see them put their beliefs into action, beyond teaching classes, writing books, etc.

I don't mean you, Dear Sir. :loveya:

It's a general observation -- a "big picture" observation -- and it seems there are nearly more teachers than there are students nowadays, especially within the "spiritual" realm.

Has anyone else noticed how many life coaches and spiritual teachers and writers and speakers and wannabe gurus there are out there? I've been noticing this for the last year and the trend continues to increase.

While my OP wasn't about Wishadoo, it's a great example of what I'm talking about. While I FULLY realize that many will NOT resonate or be called to connect with Wishadoo specifically, I have contacted several spiritually-oriented groups (mainly in the "new age" realm, for lack of a better word; I'll contact progressive organized religious groups next). I simply offer Wishadoo!'s tools and services to help THEIR work, as it's a foundation of integrity which can help put their teachings into practice.

I see Wishadoo! as a portal where others may feel safe entering, as there is no agenda, no religious or political ideology preached. Once there, and with an open heart, they can find their way to these other groups to take things to a new level, if they so choose.

I'm only contacting groups which don't already have an online gathering area or or similar tools as Wishadoo already (Wishlist, Compassion Pages, etc.).

I've received several "interesting" replies, all of which essentially say they don't feel a need to put their teachings into practice in this way (it's a "personal" journey), or they focus on the semantics of "wishing" versus "intending", etc.

The more I think about it, I still agree with my biggest aha moment yesterday, which was that many on a spiritual path have focused on the Divine for so long that they do neglect the Human part of them. And they're afraid of it.

There are many words about the Divine Within, yada, yada...but I don't see people applying it very often. They are "rising" above, and I really think it's to avoid. I really do. I know I'm being belligerent, but I feel strongly about this and I'm going to speak of it -- and other ways I observe people being dishonest with themselves -- and call it out when I think that's what is going on.

I won't call out specific people, as I don't know each person's intentions and thoughts and feelings, and I will state clearly that these are my personal observations and perceptions. I will share these "bigger picture" observations in case they strike anyone else as a truth based on their own experiences and perceptions.

Perhaps many are loners -- such as myself -- and reaching out to interact with groups of people just isn't their way and is outside their comfort zone.

Everything I'm doing is outside my comfort zone. :eyes:

But again, in my experience, these people respond in a way that essentially says 1) the suffering is an illusion and we shouldn't put our energy and attention there; or 2) they devolve into semantics in order to avoid the work of being human.

My way isn't everyone's way; indeed, my way of being in this world is not the way of many people at all. I can't even define "my way," I just know that others rarely connect with what I seek to do.

I get that.

But I think there's a reason I agitate people, even though that is NEVER my intention. I especially agitate spiritual types...I agitate people in GD. I'm like a pebble in the shoe that is an irritant. I don't know why this is the case, but it's there. Always has been, throughout my life.

And I'm okay with that, too. :)

My 15 cents.

:hug:

[Ricochet21]

43. That's a completely different story.

You are wanting the world to fall in line with your expectations.

Totally different. Good luck. :hug:

[OneGrassRoot]

44. It ties in with my original post....

and my subsequent "aha" moments later in the thread. I don't see it as a different story.

I suppose it only makes sense to me. ;)

Like most discussions that involve spirituality, there is no resolution as far as a collective discussion. Well, as I perceive it, at least.

We're little individual universes...see things differently, feel things differently, want different things, approach things differently, experience things differently.

Until I can accept that there is no commonality and no universal truth (see below) that we humans can agree on -- and ACT on -- or until I believe that isn't even necessary to ease suffering, I'll forever be searching and frustrated.

You're right -- that is my desire and/or expectation, though I grant latitude that there are many ways we can get there, not MY way. Like I said, I don't even know what my way really is. ;)

I may get to that point of releasing that desire, or the desire to connect at all. I get awfully darn close every once in a while. I'm actually perfectly content being totally alone and not interacting. I just feel this life could be easier for those suffering if we come together.

Being on an island all by myself, not aware of what's going on in the rest of the world (i.e., suffering), is my idea of heaven.

:)

It's easy to say Love is a universal truth, for example, but when we REALLY explore it, it's hard to agree on such basics as "What is Love?" or the best ways to show Love or Be Love.

Unity is a bit of a joke in many ways if you really think about it. It's a lovely word/ideal to aspire to, but putting it into action seems to get harder every day...

I just know that I'm being truthful when I say I don't expect others to be or do as I am or do, and that I'm open to understanding other ways.

Spirituality is a very individual journey.

:hug:

[Ricochet21]

45. What you hold in your mind

Is what you'll see and experience. It's that simple
There is only one mind and the rest is how we're imagining it
We imagine separateness
That's what all the great holy men and women tell us, like St. Teresa
The fact that "we" can't see it yet or experience it yet tells of how much more we have to learn/remember
that's all

There's no judgement here. Just lessons for all of us. I think :hug:

[OneGrassRoot]

46. Quite frankly, I'm more focused on the heart....

and no matter what I hold in my mind, my heart breaks from the suffering I witness and feel.

Unless I detach completely.

Mother Teresa sought to have us open our hearts to one another, in an earthly -- human to human -- manner, to help one another and ease suffering. She knew and espoused the truth that -- ultimately -- we're all connected, yet she saw the disunity here on Earth and worked to address it and remind us of our connectedness.

SHE is one of the very few people I have on a pedestal.

:loveya:

[BanzaiBonnie]

48. Here's the point I'm starting at for common experience

We are all connected.

We are hard wired for cooperation.

If you don't follow what your heart wants, it can destroy you.

Those are the Universal truths I begin with. I'd love to have a discussion about those at some other point.

But, for now, and to respond to what you've said here:

Until I can accept that there is no commonality and no universal truth (see below) that we humans can agree on -- and ACT on -- or until I believe that isn't even necessary to ease suffering, I'll forever be searching and frustrated.

What I see ever and ever more clearly, is how similar we are. We have different and unique situations, but it's the same story. We all have the same needs. We have strategies that we act on to meet our needs. Some of our strategies work well and are life enriching, but mostly our strategies don't work so well and we end up suffering.

We have been disappointed over and over in not being able to meet our needs or get our needs met. And as for our heart having a say... We have been told over and over that we can't have our heart's desire. Most people are in excruciating pain over this.


When I see the distress you are in, I have a need to reach out and offer you my heart and the best tool I've found so far, in NVC.

It looks to me that you migh be needing some empathy. Not sympathy, which is feeling sorry for you. But empathy, which is giving you understanding for the pain and distress you are in.


Now, I was pretty sure at the outset of your post that it was about Wishadoo! and how discouraged you're feeling. You must be tired beyond belief. I know you've said that to me. If I put on my NVC ears, I can hear your distress. So, am I hearing you, that you are exhausted, frustrated and discouraged?

You probably have more feelings than that. Are you feeling disappointed that more people don't see and understand the beautiful place you've created at Wishadoo? And are you in pain over some of this?


If you want to continue this exploration and search for healing here, tell me. If you want me to go private with this, we can take it to the FB group or keep it in email between us. Or I can stop here and just say that I love you.

I use myself as a guinea pig all the time, but I want to give you the respect and privacy you deserve. So, as you wish, dear One Grass Root.

[OneGrassRoot]

50. How kind....

Really, how very, very kind you are, BB. :hug:

I appreciate you reaching out with such an open heart and generous spirit. I'm not sure that I can respond with the clarity and specificity you deserve; I am indeed feeling many, many things, and thinking many, many things these days.

Now, I was pretty sure at the outset of your post that it was about Wishadoo! and how discouraged you're feeling. You must be tired beyond belief. I know you've said that to me. If I put on my NVC ears, I can hear your distress. So, am I hearing you, that you are exhausted, frustrated and discouraged?

You probably have more feelings than that. Are you feeling disappointed that more people don't see and understand the beautiful place you've created at Wishadoo? And are you in pain over some of this?

If you want to continue this exploration and search for healing here, tell me. If you want me to go private with this, we can take it to the FB group or keep it in email between us. Or I can stop here and just say that I love you.

I use myself as a guinea pig all the time, but I want to give you the respect and privacy you deserve. So, as you wish, dear One Grass Root.

The OP truly wasn't about Wishadoo! It has been a lifelong thorn in my side, this discussion of "it's all an illusion." I was able to use Wishadoo! as an example as the discussion ensued, but what I'm experiencing with Wishadoo! didn't trigger the OP. It's 25 years of interactions that led to the OP. My experience with Wishadoo! is just one in a very long line.... :)

That said, yes, I feel all of those things, not only because of the struggle of birthing Wishadoo! but because of everything else going on in my life simultaneously. I've been through very challenging times in my life, as have most of us, but the next few months are shaping up to be THE most difficult of my life.

Everything is converging...nothing is stable...all is disappearing -- every aspect of my life, not only one or two. Sure, in keeping with ASAH-speak, I try to look at it as a rebirth rather than multiple deaths, and see the opportunity to create everything anew. Yet there are times when the potential realities (potential is the key word, I know) that are facing me are overwhelming on a very human, day-to-day level. Many of us are going through intense trials and tribulations. I'm not unique.

Being an empath doesn't help right now.

Certainly I'm disappointed that people don't "get" or use Wishadoo! as intended and as I've envisioned. I don't believe everything has to be sooooo hard; I've put in the work (on many levels) for years, and I know I deserve to have something flow easily and gracefully, and I do believe it can still happen. It's only because of the myriad deadlines and "deaths" noted above that I feel pressure about this. But, I fully realize that even though I've been living, eating and breathing this vision, it's new to others. And, it's not others' focus -- it's my focus. Not everyone will connect or resonate even when they DO understand what I'm trying to create.

It is frustrating that I haven't found those -- a large group of "those" ;) -- who DO understand and who are anxious to create with me. Those who are on a similar path and want to work together, unlike the many (including who are doing wonderful things!) who aren't open to cooperating but see me and Wishadoo! as competition. There are many judgments I've encountered regarding Wishadoo!, from many different directions.

Maybe I'm going through a process of elimination. ;)

Each day holds the possibility that I will find them, or they will find me. Indeed, I just "stumbled" upon a site called Institute of Sacred Activism and Networks of Grace, which feel awesome. (and found this site in the process of searching: http://www.theawarenessparty.com/)

I'm honestly and truly not upset with anyone at ASAH as it pertains to Wishadoo!, or anyone else for that matter. I'm not upset or disappointed with any specific persons as it concerns Wishadoo!

How certain groups of people have responded is frustrating to me, to be sure.

The only "agitation" I feel periodically is here at DU, for example, where there is so much gnashing of teeth and wailing about the ills of the world (rightfully so), yet DOING is not on the agenda; people don't even want to engage in discussion ABOUT doing.

I have little tolerance for repeated complaining about the same thing without doing something about it, or even engaging to brainstorm about HOW to do something about things.

When I express that within a spiritual forum or introduce the idea of working together at Wishadoo! to spiritually-oriented groups, so often discussion devolves into semantics.

At least that's how I perceive it. And I no longer have patience for semantics, either.

I don't want to have to weigh every word and every syllable any more -- I've been there, done that, though I still try to be mindful of saying that anything I share is merely my strongly held opinion and recognize that I don't know anything. I just happen to think I'm not alone in some of my opinions. ;)

I know the intention behind what I share. I'm fairly clear within myself; when I'm not, I say so. I can no longer expend precious energy worrying how words will be perceived by so many different people on so many different paths, and different points along those paths. I am trusting that those who resonate with what I say and create will eventually connect. I'm doing all I can to make that easier. I reach out to people every day; I'm not being passive, but I also don't have any expectation when I hit "send." (Truth be told, I contact so many people that I often forget; when I get a response, it's a surprise! LOL)

If things don't happen "in time," so be it. I'm prepared to release everything. In the meantime, I am indeed working very, very hard, and I am very, very tired. But so are many.

And I feel it all intensely. Unless or until I can detach from it all, I am compelled to act to relieve my suffering and the suffering of others. I am mindful of doing so in a balanced way, not with any sense of desperation. Sometimes I have a flurry of activity for days; then I have days away from it and focus more on the other work at hand.

People worry that I try too hard, but it would be the death of me for sure -- yes, in a spiritual sense -- if I did nothing. That's not me. Not right now, at least. Maybe one day. :)

That's all I got. ;)

:hug:

:loveya:

[BanzaiBonnie]

53. In the dictionary, you'll find One Grass Root

under the definition of "one who truly follows her heart."

[OneGrassRoot]

56. ...

:hug:

[GliderGuider]

25. I've wondered similar things. My answer for now is this:

From the point of view of pure consciousness, reality exists on three levels:

- Everything is real;
- Everything is illusion;
- Nothing is.

I find that I can relate to reality from whichever level is most appropriate to the situation of the moment. When I'm at work, I use "Everything is real." When I'm at play I use "Everything is illusion." When I go deep inside I find "Nothing is." I'm aware of these levels all the time, and I find that the further I go the more they coexist simultaneously. This is my way of experiencing more fully all the manifold qualities of this amazing reality we have co-created.

However, there is more. My favourite quote from Nisargadatta is, "Love says 'I am everything'. Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." This points to the truth that Oneness flies on two wings, one composed of awareness (jnana) the other of love (bhakti). Only when both are fully spread can the soul fly to freedom.

My practice these days consists of exploring the interpenetration of love and awareness in as many ways as possible:

Awareness for its own sake;
Love for its own sake;
Awareness of love;
Love of awareness;
Awareness within love;
Love within awareness;
Love and awareness as the same thing.

And finally, this all takes place within the four-fold manifestation of my divine humanity: body/mind/heart/spirit.

The dance of Lila never ends, and its joys are infinite.

[GliderGuider]

27. And a thought or two about paradox

The absolute is inherent in the relative. Whenever we catch a glimpse of the Absolute, we are looking on the face of God. When we see the Relative, we are looking on the face of man. One of the most effective ways to see the one in the two (or in the many) is to embrace paradox. Awareness/Love, Reality/Illusion, God/Man, Man/Nature, Good/Evil, Action/Inaction - all the dualities we know and love contain the seeds of their own unification. The way I find the seed is to hold one pole of the apparent duality in each hand, become aware that both exist in my life at the same time, and dive into the paradox that creates.

When viewed like this, all of life becomes a Zen koan - insoluble unless and until we surrender.

I find that the best pointer to the next step on the path is my own resistance and fear. When I move towards the fear I usually find I'm looking at a dualism of some sort - some inherent, intrinsic, irreconcilable contradiction. At that point, I invite myself to dive into the conflict. If I have the courage to take that step off the edge, I usually find that I fall only for a moment, and then suddenly I discover myself floating in unity, as I always have been.

Trust and surrender are the keys. Let Paradox be your Parachute.

[Ricochet21]

33. Excellent

[kimmerspixelated]

58. Wow! Let Paradox be your Parachute!

This is wonderful. I like the kind of posts I enjoy re-reading!

[OneGrassRoot]

29. Carry on....

You guys are getting wayyyyyyy too deep for me. ;) This is one of those topics that can be explored on many levels, from many directions.

I was asking from a very practical, human level, and I was able to come to some powerful conclusions, for myself. Thanks for allowing me that space.

If I engage further, I'll get lost down that rabbit hole for sure.

So, have at it, Oh Brilliant Ones, and thanks for chiming in!

:grouphug:

[Kind of Blue]

31. No, Dear. Thank YOU.

This is deep and it really helps to gel some misgivings that I know I've had about speaking out because we're on a spiritual path. The journey is so personal and there are so many roads leading to the same place, that it's good to stop and lay it all out on the table along the way :thumbsup:

[BanzaiBonnie]

32. This is directly from the NVC booklet

that I just finished reading. It is sooooooo very appropriate to the question OGR posed in this OP. This is from "The Heart of Social Change - How You Can Make a Difference in Your World." transcript of a workshop given by Marshall B. Rosenberg

Conclusion

So, we've been presenting the fourth dimension of social change,
what I call self-development, and we might start there-as the
Buddha and others have suggested. The gist of it is that, before we
tackle the gangs and the basic story, we have to make sure that we
have liberated ourselves from what we have been educated in and
make sure that we're coming from a spirituality of our own
choosing. I would agree with that as a very important step, to
liberate ourselves, and to do that I would make sure that I get
into transformative spirituality, not translative spirituality. I've
seen some who hear the Buddha's words and interpret them in a
way that leads to translative spirituality, where you're just nice,
calm, neat, meditating people even though the world continues as
it is, and you hope that your good energy will spread. I think that
kind of spirituality perpetuates the problem. So, I do think we need
to start with our own self, our own spirituality, but I hope we
know the difference between translative spirituality and
transformative spirituality. This is basically what Nonviolent
Communication is about. If you want to serve life you want to
create life-enriching systems. So we need to really be conscious
moment by moment. We need to be as smart as bees and dogs-
connected to life.

Given the enormity of the social change that confronts us-
change that we would all like to see - the thing that I predict
will give us the most hope and strength to make change happen
is if we make sure that we learn how to celebrate. Let's build
celebration into our lives and come from that. That's first.
Otherwise we're going to get overwhelmed by the immensity.
Out of a spirit of celebration I think we'll have the energy to do
whatever it takes to bring about social change.

[OneGrassRoot]

36. Thank you...

I think I'm going to love this booklet. :)

I've seen some who hear the Buddha's words and interpret them in a way that leads to translative spirituality, where you're just nice, calm, neat, meditating people even though the world continues as it is, and you hope that your good energy will spread. I think that kind of spirituality perpetuates the problem.

I obviously agree with this, yet I do recognize that some people may not engage for very authentic, legitimate reasons. It's those who USE spirituality to not engage and be of direct service (I do recognize there are MANY ways to be of service to others and to the world) to others that I address in my OP and throughout this thread.

I love the idea of celebration!

Celebrate Humanity! Yes!

:bounce:

:hug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

37. I love the booklets that are transcripts of discussions

They are short, to the point and don't overwhelm with psychological jargon like some texts do. The explanations are clear, practical, and applicable.


The illusrations of how Rosenberg has used NVC and practiced it in all sorts of life situations show how broad you can go with it.


I played an empathy game with two of my grandchildren yesterday that was helpful to ME in hearing what they each had to say about a dust up they were having. The game is called GROK. It's a card game about feelings and needs.

[GliderGuider]

39. How does one decide whether the reasons for non-engagement are legitimate or not?

For example, I used to care deeply about the looming disintegration of the human experience that's happening now all over the planet. I spent a lot of time and energy banging the drum and trying to influence change on issues ranging from climate change and Peak Oil to food sovereignty and social justice. Then I had an epiphany or two about why this is happening, and decided to disengage and allow destiny to take care of itself. I now act as a vocal witness, and nothing more. I think that the role of the witness at times like these is sacred. Others see my disengagement as fatalism and defeatism - in a word, illegitimate.

Who is right? Me? My critics? Perhaps both of us? Perhaps neither?

[OneGrassRoot]

40. I have absolutely no idea...

I personally feel being a "vocal witness" IS being engaged. Of course, I also prefer being a vocal witness combined with positive action, or at least enlisting others to join together to discuss positive action.

I don't know what may be legitimate reasons for being disengaged, with a spiritual basis; I simply wanted to acknowledge that I believe they exist. That's obviously a personal judgment, which is the case with nearly everything.

I haven't found anything everyone can agree or, or even most people. I interact with a diverse group of people, so finding common ground has been next to impossible thus far -- if they're explored beyond the surface of the words and niceties.

Let me say this:

I've been contacted by people reading this thread, saying they've personally used spirituality as an excuse to disengage from life. They didn't realize they were doing it.

It's not for me to say whether that is "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "bad" for others.

I think when people do it consciously as a means of controlling others in a cult-like fashion -- which is essentially how I view many religions -- then I personally judge it as bad. Yep, yep...

I post these things for my own benefit...for selfish reasons, to understand myself better. I'm led to share and bring such topics up for discussion in case it triggers a thought process that some people haven't allowed before...that they have AVOIDED.

I have my own views of what I feel is helpful or harmful, but I recognize that's all it is: my opinion and my perception.


edit for clarity

[OneGrassRoot]

41. Can you expand upon what you perceive as your role as a vocal witness?

Do you mean that you point out the ills of the world (climate change, social injustice, etc.) or engage in discussion about the same, but don't feel a need to contribute anything beyond the facts as you perceive them?

If that's the case, do you even periodically feel called to contribute suggestions or ideas as to how to turn things around, even though you've "been there, done that" to no avail, which I know is very discouraging?

Do you find yourself encouraging or discouraging others who are trying to find solutions as you engage in such discussions, or do you avoid such people altogether?

To me, disengagement is not interacting about these things at all.

:)

[GliderGuider]

57. The shift started when I began to shake the "shoulds" out of my life.

Once I grokked that the disintegration of our civilization is already underway, I spent a number of years trying to get people to change their beliefs and their behaviour. I felt that if they made the changes I was proposing they could make a "good" outcome more likely. I was disappointed when my exhortations and hectoring fell on mostly deaf ears - whenever I wasn't just preaching to the choir, that is. It was Cassandra's dilemma too. But that's not where my suffering came from. The Buddha was right when he realized that all suffering springs from attachment. In my case the attachment was to a particular outcome - my vision of a sustainable, just, ecologically conscious society that made room for all living things on the planet, not just our relatives and friends. When that outcome was thwarted through public indifference and even hostility, I suffered mightily.

Fortunately, I went through a transformation about three years ago. The shift was complete enough that it enabled me to detach from outcomes while still remaining committed to the awareness of what's going on. At the same time I adopted the position that this reality is co-created by all its participants, and that at some level the nature of reality and our individual roles in it have been consciously chosen by us all. At that point, I realized that I had been working at cross purposes to the reality that was unfolding. The ongoing transformation, even if it becomes a collapse of civilization, is not meant to be stopped. Rather, it is the vessel within which our conscious awareness is being nurtured, developed and annealed.

From that perspective, I decided that the most useful thing I could do, something that was aligned with the point of the exercise, is simply to contribute my little bits of awareness to the field. I try to do it without expectation or attachment, without trying to elicit a particular response or outcome. Just put the awareness out there. Those who aren't ready yet will ignore or reject it, those who don't yet see it but are ready may awaken a bit more, those who are already aware may find some fresh nuance to play with. Whatever role my observations and discussions play in the unfoldment is the part they are meant to play. This is what I call "vocal witnessing".

I still care very deeply about what's happening, but I now remain relatively unattached to how it might unfold in the future. As a result I avoid talking about solutions as much as possible, largely because I don't think there are any - at least at the level most people think of "solutions" (like new policies or new technologies) The point of all this apparently catastrophic unfoldment is not for us to "solve the problem", but for for us to wake up. I agree utterly with Eisenstein and other observers - we do not have a soluble problem, we have an insoluble predicament. Because of that, our most useful response will be at right angles to the problem space. That means that the door out of this mess isn't going to be opened by a new version of our old ways (new legislation, clean energy and more recycling) although that will play a role. The real doorway out will be found by shifting into a completely new way of being - the revolution of consciousness that so many of us know in our bones is just around the corner. That's where I'm putting all my chips these days, by acting as a witness to the change.

[OneGrassRoot]

59. Wow, thank you so very, very much for typing that out...

I appreciate your sharing tremendously. :)

I understand. Thank you. :hug:

The real doorway out will be found by shifting into a completely new way of being - the revolution of consciousness that so many of us know in our bones is just around the corner. that's where I'm putting all my chips these days, by acting as a witness to the change.

I suppose one aspect of how some may perceive my "doings" differently than how I intend it, is that the action -- whatever it may be, no matter how simplistic it may seem - can lead to more open hearts and thus the revolution of consciousness of which you speak, and which I also feel is nigh.

I no longer evaluate things beyond that. I've taken that living in the moment thing to heart.

;)

[GliderGuider]

65. OGR, thank you so much for providing the opening for that awareness.

I hadn't managed to formulate my thoughts on the subject of being a "witness to collapse" before you gave me that invitation. This DU post has now morphed into an article on my website as well as a Facebook note, and now someone has posted it to CounterCurrents as well. Thank you so much for creating this opportunity!

[BanzaiBonnie]

60. revolution=evolution

Absolutely, everything is on a road to devolving. And evolving at the same time. What a terrible/wonderful time to be here.

We are in the midst of changing our story. The old one is no longer working. This is a theme over and over and over in so many writings I see by the people who are taking the long view of human existence.

Remember chaos and order follow one after the other. The chain follows from the birth of something new to the decay and death of the old. As far as I can see, there is impermanent permanence.


Look to the fractal. Repeating patterns that flow both directions into infinity.

[GliderGuider]

61. +100

Bingo.

[OneGrassRoot]

42. Listen, I know I've agitated some here....

And I invite you to discuss why I've agitated you here in this thread. Hopefully that isn't against DU rules, since I'm inviting discussion.

I never set out to agitate or offend; in fact, I usually take great care to avoid that. Yet in the process of being very open and honest about my personal feelings and perceptions and experiences -- when it's something I feel strongly about, even though I state repeatedly that I realize it's merely my own feelings and perceptions -- it offends.

If I've hit a nerve and you want to discuss it here, I'm open to it. I want to be sure that if I've hit a nerve and you're agitated, it's not because I have worded something poorly and thus there is miscommunication or misperception going on.

You can PM me as well.

:)

:grouphug:

[OneGrassRoot]

47. OMG, I'm not even done reading, but please read the link Kind of Blue provided...

in her "Oldies but Goodies" post: http://www.realitysandwich.com/across_threshold_0

Why the Age of the Guru is Over?

It's a long read, but -- wow -- he expresses so eloquently what I gradually discovered, as far as my own views and perceptions, throughout this thread.

Here are some snippets (emphasis mine):

What followed the demise of the guru was a new age of spiritual independence. Its motto might have been, "All that you need is within you." People trusted their own inner guru, their guidance. The spiritual teachers of this period were just that, teachers not gurus, not accorded a different category of being, but a kind of spiritual friend, a more experienced colleague. It was a time of self-improvement and doing your own spiritual work. The goal was a kind of self-sufficiency. We sought to eradicate negativity from our minds and take full responsibility for our lives. We worked on forgiveness. We sought to "manifest" health, wealth, and romance through the power of positive thinking. We resonated with teachings like, "Change yourself, change your beliefs, and reality will change along with it. All the power is within you; each person is a self-sufficient creator of his or her own reality." We sought to liberate ourselves from victim mentality, the belief that our happiness depends on the choices of others. Sure, we wanted to attract good relationships into our lives, but we didn't need anyone.

Though I am writing in the past tense, I don't mean to denigrate the beliefs I describe, nor even to say they are not true. They were true, and there is truth in them still. They are not the whole truth though, as many people are now starting to realize. For having reached the pinnacle of spiritual independence, they want something more.

<snip>

Because you are not separate from me, you cannot be fully healed until I am fully healed. You cannot be enlightened until I am enlightened. This is the import of the Golden Reminder and the Boddhisatva Realization described above. Each one of us is pioneering a different aspect of the connected self in the age of reunion, and each one of us as well carries vestigial habits of the age of separation that are invisible to us or that, if visible, we are helpless to overcome on our own. Quite practically, to inhabit a more enlightened state we must be held there by a community of new habits, new ways of seeing each other, and new beliefs in action that redefine normal.

In other words, in the age of the connected self our guru can be none other than a collective, a community - as Thich Nhat Hanh put it, "The next Buddha will be a sangha." By a community, I don't mean an amorphous "we are all one" mass devoid of structure, but rather a matrix of human beings united in a common story of the people and story of the self. Aligned with these defining stories, this community can hold us in the vision of what we are becoming.

:bounce:

:cry:

Thanks, KoB!!! :loveya:

[GliderGuider]

49. Thank you! Charles Eisenstein is one of my all-time favourite writers.

His book "The Ascent of Humanity" (which is available on-line for free!) is a 600-page expansion on the theme of this article. Charles is is a graceful, perceptive, insightful writer who completely gets what's going on right now, and more importantly, why it's happening. "Ascent" is still the single most important book I've ever read.

I hadn't been over to RealitySandwich in a while. Thanks for posting the link to this article.

[OneGrassRoot]

51. Yes, I downloaded it a bit earlier!!!!

I visited his site and downloaded "The Ascent of Humanity."

It also led me to another book he recommended, "The Hope: A Guide to Sacred Activism" and their Networks of Grace -- http://www.andrewharvey.net/

I'm very excited!

:thumbsup:

:hug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

52. I read it... Thank you so much for sharing, Kind Of Blue

From, Why the Age of the Guru is Over:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/across_threshold_0

Each one of us is pioneering a different aspect of the connected self in the age of reunion, and each one of us as well carries vestigial habits of the age of separation that are invisible to us or that, if visible, we are helpless to overcome on our own. Quite practically, to inhabit a more enlightened state we must be held there by a community of new habits, new ways of seeing each other, and new beliefs in action that redefine normal.

Community is the key. I've been looking for that all my life. Where do I fit in? Who will understand me? Who will take the time to know me? I now understand that I must be willing to reach out first.



To fit in, you make space for others in your life.

To understand, you must first seek to understand the other.

To be known, first seek to know the other.

Now, how to communicate in a way that each person is known and appreciated? I'm working with everyone I know to use a language that is helpful in meeting everyone's needs. When our needs are met, we become more open, willing and able to work within community. It's about meeting everyone's needs WITHOUT compromise, but finding ingenious ways to accomplish what's important.

We'll make sure that we bring everyone along for the ride.

[OneGrassRoot]

54. Since language is your focus right now....

that is most DEFINITELY how you complement my efforts and are My Missing Piece.

As mentioned several times, I have zero energy to craft the perfect words any more. I do try to be mindful of this in official and formal communications -- though am rapidly losing energy for that as well -- but really don't even try so much at informal forums and informal interactions any more.

;)

:loveya:

[Kind of Blue]

63. You're so welcome, BonzaiBonnie!

I'm definitely on board for the ride because as Eisenstein says "We cannot cultivate or practice that knowledge, but it cultivates and practices us."
Isn't that a trip? No pun intended :)

[Kind of Blue]

62. Aww. Shucks, M'am. You're welcome!

I'll have to describe my 2 Aha! Moments that broke me down while reading this wonderful writer later.
:loveya:

[SCarrington Smith]

64. What a FANTASTIC post, Dena!

Illusion is the role playing part of our lives, the tool we use to become more aware. And yes, we do need to walk through it and observe everything along the path, because that's how our soul learns and understands. Love is the ultimate truth, yet we can't get to it until we've peeled off all the layers of the shield illusion has created. If you look at it as a staircase, unconditional love sits on the second floor, and it is accessible to us, but first we must ascend the steps of ego (greed, judgment, fear, etc.)
Awareness gained by observing ourselves going up the steps is the lantern that will lead us up toward the next level. (Sorry, I know this sounds like a riddle, but that's exactly what showed up in my mind as I read your post -- a staircase).

(((((HUGS)))))

Sandra