Card of the Day: The Tower

[Love Bug]

This morning I drew a Tarot card randomly and got The Tower. I'll be interesting to see how that manifests today.

Yesterday I drew The Lovers. I interpreted that as a partnership between John Conyers and Barbara Boxer.

[Pallas180]

1. The question is:

when you draw the card randomly, is the card telling you something personally or are you asking for world or country situation before you
draw?

[Love Bug]

2. Actually, I'm looking for insight into the symbolism

When I pull a "card of the day" I'm looking for insight into the symbolism. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if I picked up a magazine today and saw a picture from 9/11. Or, I could read an article where the subject tells how they experienced some sudden life changes. I don't "look" for the symbolism -- I let it happen syncronistically. It's a way to learn more about the Tarot.

[Pallas180]

3. Love Bug - you should really take a course in tarot -maybe at your

local astrology bookstore being offered.

There are things about tarot cards that you won't get out of books or
self teaching.

You'll be taught all about the symbolism.

[Matariki]

4. respectfully, i'd have to disagree

I think that is a great way to learn tarot - letting the symbols speak directly. When i teach tarot i like to start people off without any intellectual concept of the card, just let the pictures and symbols speak for themselves. most often, people will grasp some meaning of the card intuitively. it seems to work well.

[Pallas180]

5. Hi Kineta, and I taught tarot the opposite way, first learn the meanings

and THEN let the cards speak to you....as you know , many times what the card says has no relation at all to its original meanings...

but I do believe that one has to have a solid foundation first.

The other thought that comes to mind is of the many many novices who
experiment with the cards and give readings to their friends and neighbors, scaring the bejesus out of them.

I'm from the old school, both astrologically and with tarot and psychic - the first rule is: "Do No Harm".

[Love Bug]

6. Actually, I have taken formal training

Here's some background:

I took a tarot class several years ago with local teacher who has over 20 years experience reading and teaching Tarot. I've also sat in several "Round Robin" sessions with Robin Wood, creator of the Robin Wood deck and also attended a talk given by Rachel Pollack.

After not using the cards for a couple of years I've recently started "getting into" them again and decided to try this method of getting reacquainted with the cards (Kind of a New Year's resolution "thing"). I'm also working through Mary Greer's "Tarot for Yourself" again. I'm not doing any readings for anyone at this time.

I have also gone through extensive psychic development training taught by a teacher with almost 30 years experience (Berkeley school) and am currently a TA for one of her beginner classes.

However, point taken--since I didn't give more background info you are correct in your concerns regarding novices!

Namaste!

[Pallas180]

7. Thanks Love Bug. In that case

it would be nice to hear what you do "hear/see" from your daily card.

Namaste

[Matariki]

9. Hi Pallas180

I agree with you about the importance of learning the traditional meanings and having a solid foundation. What I was talking about was getting people to get a feel for the cards first, before learning what the cards are 'supposed' to mean. This is in the beginning of the first class. I wouldn't suggest doing this in an ongoing way at the expense of learning traditional meanings, as well as the connected qabalistic, numerological, astrological connections, etc. It's my hope that this exercises facilitates opening up intuitive channels. It also seems to give people confidence in their reading ability - that they can get a feel for the cards and that the whole thing isn't just about memorization.

Novices reading for friends and neighbors and scaring them is another issue. If people can't sort it out that they are beginners or the person reading for them is a beginner and take the reading with a grain of salt, well that's their problem. I surely don't feel like it's my place to police novice tarot readers ;-)

[Pallas180]

10. Kineta. I suppose it depends

on what avenue one has arrived at the mysteries.

There is a school of thought which says " You have taught this person,
therefore what they do (with the knowledge in the future) is your responsibility and your Karma".

Since I come from that school of thought, when I teach in adult ed, I may not fully divulge depending on who is in the class. When I teach privately, I screen who I will allow in the class.

As a teacher it is a duty to impress on the students that people do take these readings seriously even if they say it's a joke .

" I surely don't feel like it's my place to police novice tarot readers" Perhaps if you are the one who taught them , it is.

In any case, that's my belief, obviously, or I wouldn't be trying to help and give guidance to people here.

[Matariki]

13. true

I suspect we are on different (but similar) paths. You quoting 'harm none' makes me suppose you are a wiccan? I'm a student of western hermetic magick and vodou. I don't agree with the idea that other people's actions are my responsibility, nor do i believe in 'karma'. However, if i were teaching something other than tarot, if i were teaching magick, i'd be selective about who i was teaching. I don't want to argue with you, I think where you are coming from is different than my path, but certainly as valid. If you want to discuss these ideas though, it could be fun. although some of it might be better discussed off this list.

~k

[Behind the Aegis]

14. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!

I have read many posts by Pallas180 and a few by you. I think it would be of great interest to see what you all had to say! Many are on their own paths and to see two people who have worked a path for themselves (and how they did it), might help those who are in the process of finding their way in the world. It is also interesting to see how paths differ. I fully understand it would be up to the two of you (and anyone else that pipes up), but there are many of us out here in cyberland watching and learning! :)

[Pallas180]

16. Aegis, I have been a student of the mysteries for 35 years - it hardly

could be possible to discuss how I got here.. These are more than one
lifetime studies - and one study such as astrology leads you to another such as tarot, leads you to another such as study of all religions and history and the formulation or understanding of certain ideas.

You will be told by a teacher or a guide, that once you are on the "path", a spiritual path, you can't get off. So it is a decision to be taken carefully.

Your spirit guide will tell you what path you are on. There are spiritual "organizations".

I never tell people who their guide is, but I do do an exercize with students to take them to meet their guide.

There is a saying,"when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

My students all have guides who belong to the same spiritual organization as mine - therefore I have to assume they were led to me
or we are re-meeting again (past life).

I have never told anyone which spiritual organization guides me, and actually one is not supposed to do so.

That's about as much as I can tell you. Of course someone's guide might tell them. LOL.

A book that you might want to look at, if still in print, or even not
is Manly P. Hall's "The Secret Teachings of All Ages". It covers Pythagoras to Hermes and more, with pictures/engravings.

ON EDIT:

Aegis, I did not work a path for myself, as you say:

"to see two people who have worked a path for themselves (and how they did it), "

I was led to the path,(you might say invited) and it was not by accident.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Apologies

My apologies to you and Kineta. I didn't mean to make my post sound so uneducated, nor make your learning sound trivial. I don't have contact with others who are serious about magick or even spirituality. But, I know it when I see it. And, I see it in your posts. I was hoping for more insight to a variety of things. I figured you had quite a bit of knowledge, although, I would not have guessed 35 years! As I said, I know 'power' and 'ability' when I see it. You show it in the words you type, and not just in this room. This will sound a tad juvenile, but for a few months I had hoped you would notice my posts and reply. I was very excited last week, when that happened. (I am not a stalker or anything...so don't worry! :) ) I am just looking for others in the same or similar boat as I am.

Again, please accept my apologies as I wasn't trying to trivialize your experiences or knowledge. I know I, and others, appreciate your insights. I usually can express my ideas well, but other times, it comes out as a jumble of thoughts and words.

[Pallas180]

18. Aegis, nothing to apologize for - and I didn't take it as making

anything sound trivial.

I have enjoyed having the opportunity to share knowledge and help out
here - you just keep reading and searching...your teacher will appear
when the time is right -when you're ready. My path is not magick.
Although I have knowledge of it, it's something I never fool with-not even White Magick.

As Kineta said, we are on different paths.

My path is strictly spiritual.

You might want to start some research into Metaphysics . Look for books by Ernest Holmes. Try Unity or Science of Mind on Sunday mornings. There should be branches wherever you are. Look in the phone book. They always have books on the subjects you would be interested in. It's a start.
And you might meet kindred souls there.

I keep telling people here to go to your local astrology bookshop. Almost all of them have people giving classes in the subjects discussed here. You'll learn from the teacher and have contact with other people of like mind.

You'll feel their energy instead of just reading it.

Go for it. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

19. I am glad.

I wasn't sure if I had offended, so I felt it better to hedge my bets and apologize, because I didn't mean to offend.

I am in a SMALL town in Okla-HELL-ma. There are NO 'special' bookstores. The chain stores we have, barely have a "New Age" (how I hate that term) section! However, the Christian section is loud and proud!

I will explore some of the books and authors you have suggested. And, I will continue to read your posts...they provide me with a different perspective.

I feel my path is the Greek one. I have enjoyed Greek mythology since I was a child. My first Tarot deck was Greek. And, recently, two books, both out-of print, became available at the same time and I got them both! Perhaps, I am well on my way.

Thanks for the input!

[Matariki]

20. my take on all this, for what it's worth

Aegis, it made me sad to see you feel like you needed to apologize for anything. What you said about 'working a path' was completely valid and it was very kind of you to invite further conversation.

I'd happily answer any question i possibly can and have further conversations with you about magick or whatever. I'm interested in Greek ‘stuff’ too, in fact i usually start my rituals with a 'banishing' that's done in Greek ;-)

now to get this off my chest:

I would warn against getting too hung up on that 'teacher/chela' thing. In fact, I'm rather distrustful of people who like to act as if they are the custodians of some 'secret knowledge' which is somehow too 'dangerous' for other people and it's their personal job to dole it out to whoever they judge 'worthy'. This is a load of ego crap in my opinion. I've known people who are very good, legitimate teachers and they don't act this way. I've also known people who get stuck in their role as 'teacher' and become so full of themselves that they constantly think they are teaching and guiding *everyone* who crosses their path. They tend to be condescending in the most inappropriate situations.

As for the path i've carved out for myself - i've spent the past 30 some (hmm, about 35 years - damn i'm getting old) studying different aspects of magick, starting with the tarot and qabala. I spent most of those years teaching myself before getting involved with group workings, initiations etc. I've never had a formal teacher, but have learned from many different people and lots of reading and lots of practice. This was what was appropriate for me, my particular path and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything else. My partner on the other hand had a really magnificent teacher - a woman well known in some circles, running a group you've probably heard of. Now it took him probably a third of the time to get to the same place it took me 30 years to get, thanks to his teacher. But my point here is that there are many, many ways to get to the same place. (Oh and there's really no 'getting to' - it's an unending process and i'm still 'getting there'.) You can live in Buttf*ck Oklahoma and never meet another person into magick or whatever and still progress along your chosen path. People who tell you otherwise have an agenda of their own. Spirit is everywhere. And you've got the internet!

One of my favorite quotes about 'The Great Work' is from Joseph Campbell's lecture on the Arthurian legend of The Grail. He talks about how the western path is one of an individual quest and an adventure.

He begins by with a passage from Malory's Quest of the Holy Grail:

"They agreed that all would go on this quest, but they thought it would be a disgrace to go forth in a group, so each entered the forest at a point that he, himself, had chosen, where it was darkest and there was no path."

Campbell goes on to say: "Now all of you who have had any thing to do with Oriental gurus know that they have the path, and they know where you are on the path. Some of them will give you their picture to wear, so you know where you are to get to, instead of your own picture. This is the difference, and this is Europe."

"So the knights entered the forest at the point that they had chosen, where there was no path. If there is a path, it is someone else's path, and your are not on the adventure. Now what are you to do about instruction? You can get clues from people who have followed paths, but then you have to carom off that and translate it into your own decision, and there is no book of rules. On this wonderful quest - it's a marvelous romance, with each knight going his own way - when anyone finds the path of another and thinks, "oh, he's getting there!" and begins to follow that path then he goes astray totally, even though the other may get there. This is a wonderful story: that which we intend, that which is the journey, that which is the goal, is the fulfillment of something that never was on the earth before - namely, your own potentiality. Every thumbprint is different from every other. Every cell and structure in your body is different from that of anyone who has ever been on earth before, so you have to work it out yourself, taking your clues from here and there."

[NMDemDist2]

21. thank you kineta

your comments were spot on and I appreciate your insight

[Behind the Aegis]

23. WOW..thank you for that response!

I appreciate your words. It is tough being in Okla-HELL-ma because of the closed minds and hateful people. There are some good souls here and I have had the pleasure of meeting them. I always wondered why I was brought here, but now I have a partner that I love, I have some VERY good friends, and, because of a very painful event, I am more self-aware. I guess for me, I am always looking for more knowledge in this area. I have this very odd feeling we are all moving into a new age. We have seen the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Industrial Age, the computer age, and I feel, we are moving into an age where true spirituality and magick is about to reemerge from a long slumber. Weird, huh?

I am so glad I have a place like this. Some of the other boards I have been to are too difficult to navigate, people do not post often, or the ideas are...well, unbalanced. I look for wisdom in all cultures. I speak a number of languages and have studied a number of cultures, and that helps me as a person. I also enjoy hearing from others on these topics (magick, astrology, meditation, etc.), as it helps me sort through things.

I appreciate your words and hope we cross paths again! :)

[Pallas180]

24. Mysticism tradition of "secrets of the universe", the Kabbbala, and other

teachings have been passed down by word of mouth for thousands of years. Only recently have some been put on paper and distributed widely , notably in the last 40 years or so for the "initiated" and the uninitiated. Those writings are often written in such a way as to be unfathomable.

The reason:

"The keys to understanding can be found in the Bible, The Koran, and in many other books and prayers throughout history’s collection of Religions and beliefs, and they have always been present and available for those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear."

" Words and Thoughts have power. Universal Compassion is the requirement for enlightenment. Only those who have proven they will not abuse the power are given the key to the Door of Everything"


So much for attacking mystic tradition as an expression of ego.

[Matariki]

25. So much for attacking mystic tradition as an expression of ego.

Assuming that your post was in response to mine - i wasn't attacking 'mystic tradition'. I'm an 'initiated' part of that tradition too. The post addressed the ego motivation of trying to making other people feel small. Pallas, I enjoy most of your posts and you clearly have a lot of knowledge of astrology and tarot and probably many other topics, but i thought you were unnecessarily condescending to Love Bug. I thought her response made it clear that she had a profound grasp of how to work with the tarot.

There's a reason that 'occult' knowledge is widely available these days. And if you read your history you'll see that even 'initiates' of the past have often acted rather petty and 'abused their power'. The question is - who is judging? Do you think you know?

As a friend of mine put it - "If you're not initiated into our mysteries, we can't tell you which books the secrets are published in."

I think it would be an interesting topic of discussion - whether knowledge should be 'open' or gaurded. It's something i've given a lot of thought to and discussed with lots of people who have knowledge to share. If we could discuss it without digging at each other of course.

[Pallas180]

29. My beliefs differ from yours

substantially, Kineta.

I do believe in Karma;
I believe in responsibility for who and what I teach.
I believe in taking care of my students
and watching them carefully,
protecting them as I take them into other dimensions.

On an internet site many people can be reading who could be upset or introduced to mystic subjects too quickly, shockingly. That would be a disservice, if not even causing a harm. Having experienced that kind of introduction myself many years ago, I am cautious that no one
should repeat my experience.

I have been teaching since 1974. Metaphysics, Meditation, Astrology,Tarot, Psychic development.

Until Love Bug explained her extensive knowledge and training, my suggestion was meant to be helpful to a novice.

I apologized to Love Bug for not knowing she was not a beginner and encouraged her to go on and tell us what she reads in her "card of the day".

Your perception " i thought you were unnecessarily condescending to Love Bug" is your perception.

We approach the mysteries from very different avenues, I have said before.

Thank you, but I'm not into debate and argument.Nor do I come here for debate and argument.

As I tell my students, " take what you can from what I say, and what you can't accept, let it go, it may make sense to you at some later time."

It is unlikely we could or would come to any agreement on whether it is best to approach these matters cautiously or full throttle.

Quite frankly, I have been offended by your attacks, and I really dont care to give you the opportunity to continue them.

Namaste.

[Matariki]

31. at what point did you become offended?

that my opinions are different than yours and i stated them?

if you reread your posts, i don't think you'll find an apology to Love Bug. in fact all you did was give her permission to speak about the tarot after she said she had taken classes.

i was trying to point out the difference between interaction with your students and strangers on the internet. however, this is really between you and her. so i'll drop this now.

[davsand]

26. Sometimes we reach for things we aren't ready to have.

As teachers I think you both feel an obligation to keep your students safe--even from themselves.

I am not contradicting either of you two, in fact, I see it in you both. Sometimes students (and that should be interpreted as all of us!) reach for things that we aren't quite able to handle yet. Maybe our skills are not quite up to the level of safety or maybe our self control is not quite fully developed.

I suspect from what you both say about your teaching you are careful about presenting certain things to some folks until you are sure they are able to benefit from the knowledge rather than self destruct. Mentally, I liken it to preventing a toddler from touching a hot stove (however I am reluctant to use that metaphor for fear of being seen as belittling...)

I know from personal experience that there have been things I experienced early on that I was not ready for at the time. I had enough sense some of the time to steer clear, but a couple of times I did get burned. I WISH I'd had a responsible teacher!

Peace to you both!


Laura

[Matariki]

27. hi davsand

i don't 'teach'. Just tarot sometimes, but i *really* don't think tarot is dangerous.

As far as magick goes (and by that i mean spiritual practices that bring about change), i've always found that the biggest danger for beginners is not doing the work.

Don't you think you learned from the times you made mistakes? i know i have. it's part of the process.

There's one school of thought that says humanity is changing and the model of keeping knowledge secret is 'old aeon' and authoritarian. I prefer the paradigm of personal responsibility and egalitarianism - of sharing knowledge laterally - it goes with my progressive politics ;-)

~k

[davsand]

28. Nah, I don't think Tarot is all that dangerous, however...

Tarot is not terribly dangerous to anyone, IMO. I will admit that when I wrote what I did, I had other more arcane subjects in the forefront of my mind.

Having said that, however, I will also say that I think sometimes the images contained in Tarot can provoke some unusual awakenings for people who are sensitive to it. I do think it is a good idea to work with someone else or at least have a good support network while you are learning. Further, I think it terribly important that readers realize that they need to awaken the questioners rather than scare heck outta them.

Peace to you--I think we are on the same page here!


Laura

[Pallas180]

15. Kineta, yes we have come to knowledge through very different paths -

I am far from wiccan, magick, or any similar practices.

And I'm glad to hear you would be selective in who you teach certain practices.

[Pallas180]

8. What area of the country are you in Love Bug? There was a report today

of two railroad trains crashing and dangerous chemicals spilled.

That's the tower.

[Love Bug]

11. I'm in the Twin Cities

I hadn't heard about the trains. Yikes, Tower, indeed. Hope no one was hurt!

[Behind the Aegis]

12. 8 killed

This took place in SC. A large cloud of Chlorine gas was released and killed 7 people. The engineer was killed on impact.

[Pallas180]

22. Schopenhauer:

"All truth passes through three stages:

first, it is ridiculed;

next it is violently attacked;

finally, it is held to be self-evident."

-- Schopenhauer

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. Interesting. I get an email weekly from an astrologer who selects

a card of the week. This week was the Tower too.

[Pallas180]

32. Mud slides, wild snows, train & plain crashes,floods -The Tower it is.

as Love Bug chose. And another astrologer picking the same tarot card
is certainly confirmation.

Boy - it appears the earth changes are upon us.


not a happy time.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. Mother Nature sure ain't happy and she's letting us know that loud

and clear.