Astrologers, is there any meaning to not having any planets in the 12th House?

[I Have A Dream]

Conversely, what does it mean when you have planets in the 12th House? I understand that it is the House of SPIRIT, SURRENDER, SACRIFICE & SECRETS. However, I don't know whether there's an additional special meaning when there are or aren't planets in it.

Is the 12th House the same as the other 11? For some reason, I think that there's something special about it such as gifts that you bring from past lives or rewards for past life accomplishments or something like that.

...or am I totally confused?

:silly:

[stellanoir]

1. If you don't have any planets in the 12th house you're damn lucky in terms of past life overload.

or minimization thereof.

Look, I've three in the twelfth and my kid has three as well. We sometimes barely know which reality we're dealing with at any given time. Yet we have great fun. It's Leo after all. Still his stellium is far better and gentler than mine. Thank goodness.

One placement of mine is known for "clandestine relationships." I always joke that I had a relationship so-o-o-o clandestine that I didn't even know I was even having it for twenty years. That's a half joke. It was painfully exacting though. Weird story but entirely true. Call the tabloids. Or maybe not.

You are not confused. The 12th is extraordinarily deep. Avoid it at all costs and vote for a clean slate is my strongest recommendation.

[I Have A Dream]

2. I think that you told me that story once. Yes, very weird.

Enough said.

Thanks, as always, stella. :hug:

[stellanoir]

3. Few people can even know the fifth of it and it grates on me to no end.

I'll work it out. But thanks hon.

[rumpel]

25. well, that's where my Pluto resides...

by himself...

[cassiepriam]

31. Me too. The most karmic of all placements.

Pluto 12 house. Doesn't get heavier than that :(...

Means the native will have to face the deep dark forces hidden deep
within the human psyche. Difficult karma from past lives to handle.
Also strong karma around the use, abuse, or misuse of power, either as
abuser or victim. Must deal with control and manipulation issues in this life.

A 12h Pluto also is strongly indicative of strong healing power for self and others. And an indication of of the ability for trance mediumship, clairvoyance, especially if Pluto is in Cancer or Scorpio or has links to the moon.

[rumpel]

33. yikes

sounds about right - abuse, misuse of power :(

mine is in Leo, a little off on the Moon but is linked to Neptune, which is in Scorpio along with the mean node

It says: Leo is glamour, generosity, organizer, the center of attention (astrodienst), so perhaps a lot of drama of victimization?

but neither the natal / transit chart or progressed chart has any disharmonious planets I (untrained layman) can see (very little) related to Pluto - Moon and Neptune are in the natal second house - the only struggle I continue to have is financial - what am I not seeing or learning? Considering the Pluto 12h, and Neptune 2h connection does it mean illusions, scams? Sure hope it's over...

[cassiepriam]

34. A couple of questions

I will answer your questions if I can, but first I have one for you.

Your natal chart has a number of flags for psychic abilities.
Can you tell me what specific type psych abilities you have?

Psychic skills are complex in the way they manifest in each individual
and I am trying to see if there is a way to get specific info from the natal
chart about that area. Right now all I can get are general indicators.

[rumpel]

37. a few samples

that could or could not be such abilities...

In my teens and twenties I was working in a field that required me to interpret for people on a daily basis, at some point, when my mind was fast, I was able to "read", or knew, what he/she was going to say in advance - so my interpretation, while not required, turned into simultanous interpretation.
I also had one person, who would only work with me as his assistant. He was a very impatient man, and needed someone who saw things without him having to tell and explain - I just knew what he wanted, but this may be perhaps just being able to see ahead putting 2 & 2 together

Many times I know, who calls -
sometimes I feel like I am open to receive spontaneous visual messages - but often do not know what it means
quite a bit of gut feelings about people, I meet for the first time, which I do unfortunately ignore thereafter, leading me often into trouble

I vividly dreamt of airplane crashes several days before they happen (not recently -perhaps I blocked it as I said: "no more of this please")

all this feels more like being able to communicate with other energies in a different realm, not so much at will, at this level of existence, it just comes to me - if that makes any sense

I also feel that I have some sort of healing abilities but do not know how or what- mainly by touch perhaps - ex: dogs in pain seem to come to me or do not refuse me (such as in feeling vulnerable when injured and biting) and I am frustrated at myself as I do not know what I am supposed to do other than touch with the intent to aid.

:shrug:
but it is fun for me to explore the possibilities
:)

[cassiepriam]

38. Rumpel

do you have a sense of where the info is coming from?

from an inner knowing?
or from the Akashic records?
or from the person you are working with?
(their auras)

Or guides?

And do you see pictures? Or hear messages?

The healing ability most likely is coming from the 12h Pluto, Moon/Pluto aspect, and I suspect that Scorpio/Taurus nodal axis.

[rumpel]

39. not from the person

it feels more like from Akashic records or inner knowing

I see pictures, very rarely I "hear" (out of blue) one key word, if at all

I tried to communicate with guides but have not received an answer. So I don't think it is guides - unless they send me the pictures...:)

interesting on the healing - the chart did not give me a Moon/Pluto aspect - do I calculate that by figuring out the degrees between them?

[cassiepriam]

40. So mostly clairsentience, an inner knowing,

But you have a bit of clairaudience, and clairvoyance, and prophetic dreams.
Most psychic people I have talked to have several different psychic abilities.

Interesting too, I have read that we all carry a copy of the Akashic records
in our aura.

Your astro chart is not using the wider orbs that I use in karmic work, they probably use 3-6 degrees. I am using 8-10.

It is really simple, look at your chart, see Pluto. 28 degrees Leo.
Then look at your moon, 21 Libra. You can see that they are well within the wider orb that I use. So then you count the signs they are apart from each other. Virgo, Libra. Two signs apart is a sextile.
Three is a sq, 4 a trine, etc etc.

Thanks Rumpel for the info, it is helpful as I try to figure out somethings!

[rumpel]

41. why, thank you

for helping me try to understand the science of astrology...

Akashic records in our aura is an interesting thought. Considering aura being our energy imprint it may be coded also in our DNA? This just occured to me in relation to the arguments in the book "The Cosmic Serpent" about the communication of shamans with the plants and the transfer of wisdom...just blurting out an instinctive aha moment, here. I will check into that.

Now, I am going to study what you said - sounds much easier to remember now :)

[cassiepriam]

42. Interesting......

Actually some say that psychic knowing (cleairsentiences)
is coded at the DNA level. While the other psychic skills come in from the various chakras. Mediumship from the throat or solar plex. Clairvoyance thru the third eye etc.

But all past lives and akashic records are connected to the DNA. Ancestral inheritances, past lives misuse of the body, all of it encoded in the DNA and aura somehow.

I get frustrated because I want to know how it all works, what are the underlying mechanisms?. What are the similarities and differences from person to person, soul to soul?

But imprinted it is in some fashion. And yes shamanistic practices
connect with various earth energies for their healing work. And it might
involve auric transfer of knowledge. Same thing with crystals.

I like those aha moments when we can connect some dots!

I am not an expert in the technical end of astrology! So beware! :)
Know just enough to do karmic work. If you google: measuring aspects, signs apart, etc they can give you more info. There is another way to do it by measuring etc and being much more exact if you want to learn that way as well.
Not as important in my work, we go wide and and aspects and orbs don't have to be exact to see karma at work. The energy is there, just impacting at a different level of intensity.

[cassiepriam]

35. Karmic astrology uses wide orbs so your Pluto does have quite a

few aspects.

Yes Leo karmic debt wise is pride, arrogance, over bearing, autocratic.

And in terms of the aspects to Pluto it looks like you had some past lives where you were either the victim or the perp in these issues: Obstinacy, paranoia, ruthless advancement and elimination of others. Also trauma and drama, abandonment, rejection issues. Also manipulation, and destructive emotional power.

In terms of financial issues:

You came back in this life more interested in intangible assets such as knowledge, values, spirituality, etc. rather than material resources. Also you tend to be emotional and and naive about money. And your house of resources is part of a fixed and cardinal t sq indicating karma in the making and also deeply entrenched karma around money issues.

You might want to do some past life work to see if you can break through some of that deeply ingrained material.

[rumpel]

36. Past life karma

I wonder whether I was in a position to inflict struggle onto others or whether I have not completed my work of being a victim in my immediate past life...
But while this issue is quite heavy in this lifetime I am not letting money issues control everything else in my life - that is drag my spirit down.

Yes, it is dot on on the intangible assets - and as I see it, I am struggling in an attempt to seek resources from those who amassed more than they willl ever need to those who are are in need. I am definitely naive about money, and have very opposing and conflicting views of it - love - hate and am still working on it.

[NJCher]

4. my astrologer told me

that when you have no planets in a house, it just means that during this lifetime, there is no work with the issues or business of that house.



Cher

[stellanoir]

5. Yup precisely.

That reminds me of the countless times people have looked at their charts during a reading and they've seen empty houses and assumed that they were void or they wouldn't experience anything in those arenas of life.

For instance, looking at an empty 7th one might think that they wouldn't experience any relationships whatsoever.

That isn't true at all. Of course, one looks to the ruler of an empty house and its aspects, as well as transits and progressions for further info and the placements of the nodes are always extremely revealing.

One time, I explained all of that to a very vibrant funny lady. She had everything clustered in the first quadrant. She thought a moment and pointed to her empty houses and said, "So these areas are at peace." I thought her understanding was fairly apt for a novice.

[Delphinus]

8. Great information.

I have no planets in my third, sixth, seventh, and ninth and often felt like I was missing out on some things that would be really cool. I like the way your one lady said, "those are at peace". Makes a lot of sense to me.

Also, I have my Sun & Mercury in the twelfth in my natal and Venus in my relocated and it is, most certainly, a journey. It's also a trade-off: in my natal, Uranus is in my first (and sometimes I feel that so strongly), but in my relocated, my first is empty (and I feel that strongly, too). No wonder I've never quite found where I belong (other than here in this forum!! :)).

[Sweet Freedom]

11. Thanks for posting!

I have nothing in my 1st, 10th or 12th and always wondered what that meant.

[I Have A Dream]

12. I haveno planets, etc. in my 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th or 12th.

I've always wondered also.

[Why Syzygy]

21. So that means?

That twelve planets are working in five houses? Egads. Just my guess.

[cassiepriam]

30. From a karmic standpoint that is not true.

We all have karma that we are working on.
In all the houses.

[cassiepriam]

6. A house is never really empty.

Look at the sign, rulership, etc.
That can tell you just as much as a planet located there.

Howard Sasportas wrote a great book about the houses and good info about the 12h.

[Delphinus]

23. This is what my library in town has:

The luminaries : the psychology of the sun and moon in the horoscope / by Liz Greene & Howard Sasportas

Is this a good one?

[cassiepriam]

24. Sasportas is a karmic icon. I would read anything by him.

[cassiepriam]

7. 2h is the gift house. 12h is the debit side of the karmic card.

12h is a very karmic house. Different from the other houses in that respect.
It is the house of karma and past lives.

[divineorder]

9. In My Interpretation of Empty Houses

Empty houses are houses where the issues involved are "background". This is not to say that these houses are inactive-people with empty 7th and 5th houses do have children, after all-but the issues aren't ones you have to actively work through all the time.

The twelfth-deals with confinement. I have an empty Scorpio twelfth, and while I enjoy some solitude and have found it regenerative, solitude is not an issue that forces itself on me. If I had planets there, I would have issues surrounding isolation, and events that would force me to deal with it actively, rather than simply handle it automatically. An example: Shrub's twelfh house Sun means that his personality must deal with issues surrounding restriction, solitude, and his subconscious. Events would arise that would force him to deal with those issues, especially with the Sun there. The traditional advice for a person with the Sun in this position would be to seek a career as a monk, researcher, or some other career where they could work alone and provide service. When I saw Shrub's Sun there, I knew then we would have the weakest President going, and that the choice to run wasn't really his to make.

[Delphinus]

14. Whoa, divineorder!

I've never heard of the 12th in that light - interesting! As I said earlier, my natal (but not my relocated) 12th has the Sun & Mercury there and, believe me, I have often thought how wonderful it would be to escape to a convent or become a cloistered monk! And, with my Venus there now, that's probably why it feels so right to be unencumbered by a romantic relationship.

Thank you for jumping in!

I just love what I learn on this forum!

[cassiepriam]

15. A good example of how karmic astrology differs from tradtional astrology.

The 12h is the most important karmic house, so we spend a
great deal of time and study on that house. And we would
tend to not take the view that karma is ever in the
background during any given incarnation. The whole purpose
of coming back to earth is to pay off debts and learn lessons
which is what the whole chart is about, especially the 12h.
That said, sometime there are rest lives, so someone can take
a break, but that may or may not be indicated by an empty 12 h.

Also since the 12h is the most important karmic house, karmic astrologers extract a great deal more info from that house than traditional astrologers tend to do. For example I could probably write at least 5 pages of information about an "empty" 12 in someone's natal chart.

You are going to look at the house signs, cusp, house ruler and aspects. For example I have only one planet in the 12 h but I have come back with many many karmic issues to work on in this life. The 12h house ruler is the sun and my natal sun is in the middle of a stellium with many aspects to it. And that is only the beginning of how
you would begin to tackle the interpretation.

And also for example, if the planet in the 12 house is a different sign from the cusp the interpretation will be different. Actually the signs of the cusp and planets in 12 h are critical. A 12h mercury in Sag is going to be different karma from a 12h mercury in Pisces for example.

[jrthin]

18. Cassiepriam

Could you explain some about an "empty" 12h. Thanks.

[stellanoir]

19. I'm not cassie. . .

but count your blessings and look to the ruler of the 12th and the lunar nodes for further info.

That'll tell you some. But the whole chart is always informative.

[cassiepriam]

22. In terms of interpretation?

See Stella's comments above.

Basically in karmic astrology there are no empty houses. There is a lot of data about a house, even when there are no planets located there. I would like to also say that even when there is a planet in the 12h you are going to use the following interpretive methods. You can see that the 12 house is very rich information and you are going to look at much more than the planets in that house.

To determine 12 h karmic issues in an "empty" house or one with planets, look at the signs of the house, especially the cusp and the house ruler. (In the case of an intercepted house you will have a co ruler and then double the information.)

You are then going to find the location in the natal chart of the ruler of the 12h, and any aspects to that planet.

You are then able to start gathering data. For example, my 12h signs are Leo and Virgo, with Leo on the cusp. Right there you are getting some important info about my past lives and karmic debt. You can see that I most likely had issues around power, and that I was obsessive, perfectionist and may have been submissive. So you begin to get a feel for the past life issues.

The you look at the ruler of Leo, which is the sun, my sun is in the 6h in the middle of a Pisces stellium. So you look at what does the sun mean. The sun is the core of who we are, our life force, self expression. Karmic issues for the sun can center around loss of sense of self and personal value. There may be a need to connect to who you really are at your core. So you know that played an important part in my karmic debt. All of that was somehow damaged or hurt in past lives, or hurt others. And since it is in Pisces we know that there are typically victim issues, powerlessness issues with that sign. Again more of the theme we already identified. And then you look at the aspects to the sun, especially the hard ones. But the easy ones give you info as well.

I have many aspects to the stellium, so you would be looking at all of that in this case. You can see how much data you get. But let's just take the sun. My sun aspects Venus (so past issues around love), Mars (will and power issues), the moon (emotions) , mercury (communication). You are then going to examine each of those planets, signs, and aspects quite carefully to see the story each of them is telling you about their respective issues.

Again you are getting a lot of basic data, and you begin to get a sense of some
past life issues. My style is to gather as much data as possible in a focused strategic way then begin to get a feel for the issues that continue to come up over and over again. Those are the ones I am most interested in.

Then of course you can start looking at the rest of the chart to see if there is more data that supports or refutes what you already have. Look at the nodes, (mine are a Pisces/Virgo axis, a reversed nodal axis which means I have been working on that axis many lifetimes.) So you see how that supports what we already know. Then Chiron, then all the other houses, etc.

For example if you want to look at the issues around power you will look at all the Mars aspects carefully. Chiron to Mars is a wounded will, Sat to Mars is powerlessness, Uranus to Mars is willfulness etc.

Also I work with the prenatal eclipses and that gives you more data as well.
Mine is in Pisces. Again that Pisces Virgo, 6/12 theme. Over and over.

I do not know if this helps or answers your question, feel free to ask more questions if need be. This was a bit of rush job, hope it is clear!

[cassiepriam]

26. Bush's 12h

Interesting discussion.

From a karmic standpoint Bush has quite a bit going on with the Sun and Saturn in the 12h. He most likely was a famous well known person in past lives, but abused his position. In this life he will not get the recognition he thinks he deserves and will be more on the sidelines than he prefers. He will not get the adulation he feels is his due. Also he has karmic tie to his father, and there were issues of smothering and isolation in those past lives.

Saturn is the Lord of karma, and Bush has Saturn in the most karmic of all houses. So that is a heavy duty placement, it indicates a very strong karmic block on progress in this life due to problems and mistakes in past lives. There is a way to over come that block by much hard work and self examination. And a major effort to overcome inadequacies and faults. If this can be done, and usually happens after middle age, Saturn will grant the gift of wisdom, discipline and strength.

[Rock_Garden]

28. Now, that's fascinating. n/t.

[I Have A Dream]

10. Thank you so much to everyone who has responded.

I have a much better idea of how to think about it now.

[cassiepriam]

32. I think all the discussion is so interesting.

I mainly know the karmic end, and it is good to see how
other astrologers interpret things.

[davsand]

13. What IS Lilith, and how much attention does it require in my 12th?

I'm seeing that something called "Lilith" sits in my 12th. Is that considered an asteroid? (I am SUCH an astrological oaf!)

How much attention does an asteroid in the 12th require--can you guys tell me your opinions on that?


Laura

[Helga Scow Stern]

16. Could think of an asteroid in the 12th house as

a hungry spirit, something that moves you from the unconscious and wants something from you.

Lilith, for instance, has to do with the repressed, exiled feminine.

[davsand]

17. I just HAD to follow that up with some research.

Lilith in various houses and signs:

http://nmazca.com/coeli/lilith.htm

On there, "LILITH IN THE 12th HOUSE seems to create an urge for illusions, fantasies and intoxication conditions. You are probably susceptible to drugs and easily impressible. On the other hand, this position gives a very strong creative and inspirative capability. You vary between social contacts and retreats to isolation, are engaged excessively in the social area and help sympathetically wherever it is necessary, whereby you also might neglect yourself. Perhaps a tendency exists, to walk through the life without a self, because you negate, don't recognize or want to admit your own needs."



And Astro.com's comments on Lilith:

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Interesting stuff!


Laura

[stellanoir]

20. there are two Liliths.

One is supposedly "a dark Moon" (aka etheric.) The other is an asteroid. So interpretations would vary.

[wickfordbard]

27. I am so behind things in this forum. Perhaps it's my 12th house planets

I have 4 planets in the 12 house - and almost all of my houses and planets relate back to the 12th. Mars, Sun, Venus & Mercury with Taurus on the cusp and Gemini asc.

One of the dilemna's I deal with is what i call the Harry Potter syndrome. People with 12th house energy live under the staircase and are constantly being told "You're not a wizard!" It sort of forces you to go within and decide for yourself who and what you are. I also like to think of it as the 100 monkey house - we're working out collective issues in our personal lives and bringing about change. (I kid you not - I got Rudolf Nureyev into modern dance by imagining him doing it - and I was there for his very first performance at Lincoln Center. It was awful!)

Everyone - what great astrological information you all provide here. :toast: :toast:

[cassiepriam]

29. Well Wicky you bit off a lot of karma this life.....

Maybe you don't want to come back to this lovely planet :)....

You have a lot of work you chose to do in this life.

Sun: You were a famous person in a past life, you most likely have memories of those lives. However, you may be relegated to the sidelines in this life, not getting the recognition you deserve this time around. You may have to experience anonymity to balance the fame and adulation you enjoyed in past lives. You may also have karma with your father or authority figures.

Mars: Karmic issues around will, aggression, assertion, violence and war. Most likely a solider in several past incarnations. You may have positive qualities of military leadership, discipline and self reliance. You may also be drawn back repeatedly to deal with violent confrontation or to learn the positive qualities of will and assertion. You may also have strong male energy that you are needing to integrate with the female energy, and to develop a softer more artistic side. Time to balance that all out.

Venus: Indicates a great deal of relationship karma. You want to learn to be more flexible, and to be more committed to others. You may have close karmic links to the women in your present life.

Mercury: Karma with how the mind and ability to communicate have been used in the past. You will be tested in this life to be more flexible and use your mind to communicate in flexible, cooperative and kind ways.

[wickfordbard]

43. Hey Cassie, didn't know you'd responded, since I'm so sporatic about

getting back here.

Did I put down Mars in the 12th? That was when i used placidus. with porphery?sp. Mars is in the 11th conjunct my aries nn. I'm just getting used to seeing my mars in the 11th, and understanding it there instead of the 12th.

Thanks for the info. I've done alot of past life work and of course my Jungian training encompassed alot of it too. Definitely father issues, with my dad's death last summer and my 2nd Saturn return around the corner - things that in some ways were resolved are getting much more resolved.

From what you've stated, it seems I've done pretty well on working on my issues. I never thought much about the famous idea, and I've never wanted to be famous. I do however, want to work with really creative people - some of whom are famous. So that part resonants.

Thanks again.:) :)

[ricochetastroman]

44. Hey dreamboat

I don't think it means anything if the 12th is empty. As was clearly stated here, what does matter is what sign is on the cusp and what planets are posited there.

I do think that there is too quick and easy of a knee-jerk reaction to panic and think that planets there represent "your undoing" or "bad karma" or "misuse of power." While I'm not discounting that, here is where I am coming from:
When you look and study the 12 signs and see how they evolve and then the 12 houses and see their meanings... I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, you get to the 12th and everything goes caput! Doom!

To me, we all need to do a whole lot of studying through the years to really see what makes the 12th house tick. It very well may be that these are energies that we voluntarily "surrender to God" or give up trying to manipulate.

My experience (and I have a 12th house Sun) shows that 12th house planets are many times energies we keep "under a bushel." And it is also clear that many of the people I admire the most have strong 12th house placements. It seems more like to me that you just can't get away with expressing the planet's energy for personal gain, i.e., it has to be "His Will" in this area. Twelfth house planets to me are very similar to having them opposite Neptoon. O8)