What's the story on Neem Oil, and Sevin ?

[bvar22]

We've used Neem Oil on our roses, and it workd great on Black Spot and provides acceptable protection from aphids and most other insects.

We are reluctant to use it in the Veggie Garden.
Everything I read says that it is an "organic" method for controlling insects, fungus, and mildew.

Do any of you use it on plants you plan to eat?

On Edit:
One of my Health Conscious neighbors swears by Sevin.
It supposedly biodegrades completely within 24 hours ? :shrug:

[Dover]

1. I have never heard of neem oil, so I'm glad you asked this question. Here's what I googled-

Interestingly, I found some sites that discourage Sevin on edible plants, while others said it is 'legal'. Hmmmm.

On the other hand, the info on Neem seemed consistent regarding it's safety on edibles. I mainly posted my results from the Neem Oil search. You might do your own search on Sevin and see if you can find one you feel is reliable as regards its safety. This discussion was typical ->

Discussion on the Sevin issue at a gardening website:

Is Sevin ok to use on it and other veggies?

Responses:

**Please always read the label. Not all formulations of pesticides are the same and they differ in terms of whether they are OK on edibles or not. They also differ in terms of how long one is to remain *out* of the garden after application, how long a waiting period before they can be eaten etc.

Have you considered trying something much less toxic to lifeforms other than what you want dead? Sevin kills any insect that contacts it and persists for a week or more.

There are insecticides like pyrthrins that also kill any insect, but generally persist only hours to days and there are pesticides like neem that last a week or two, but only kill insects that feed on the sprayed plants.

Given that you aren't even sure it is an insect problem Sevin is kind of overkill, in my opinion.

**Carbaryl (brand name Sevin) is rather benign insecticide widely used on vegetables. Most formulation s a one day wait to harvest, although Adios specifies 0 wait time. It is very effective on beetles (Japanese, Mexican, flea, and cucumber beetles) which feed on bean plants. Mites , aphids etc eat it for dessert. I would doubt from your description that the problem is beetles, perhaps rabbits as has been suggested or slugs. Try to identify the culprit and then target it specifically.

**Sevin is hardly benign, with all due respect. It is one of THE most toxic pesticides for bees and other hymenopterans. It is also one of the most deadly chemicals to use around earthworms. To say nothing about the effects on mammals. It's a cholinesterase inhibitor!

Cont'd

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cornucop/msg05135140662.html


:shrug: See what I mean about inconsistency?


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Chatroom question/discussion: Is Neem Oil Safe on Edible Plants?

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cornucop/msg061418118333.html

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NEEM OIL

Cold-pressed, free of aflatoxin, 1500 ppm azadirachtin.

Basic constitiuent in RB 86, Neem 47 and also an ingredient in our Neem-Schampoo.

Neem oil is in America exempted from the requirement of tolerance for residues when used acc to good agricultural practice as a broad-spectrum pesticide on all greenhouse and terrestrial food crops according to the Environmental Protection Agency, USA.

In Costa Rica and the Netherlands Antilles Neem is approved for use on edible plants, vegetables and fruits. In Sweden, Neem is up to this day approved for use on ornamental plants.

http://www.bionim.com/productinformation.php

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Neem oil is a botanical pesticide made from an extract of the plant Azadirachta indica. Since it doesn't strongly affect humans, mammals, or beneficial bugs, farmers use neem oil as an insecticide and miticide to keep away pests like aphids and white flies. Neem oil even protects crops from fungal infections such as mildew and rust. People use insecticide with neem oil to repel mosquitoes and lice.

The plant that gives us neem oil originates in Southeast Asia. People from these countries have long noted the benefits of crushing the leaves and stems against their skin to keep off biting insects like gnats. A wider industrial and commercial use was found for the potent oil by grinding the seeds of the neem plant. When the oil is distilled from seeds, its concentrated mixture contains high amounts of the active chemical azadirachtin.

Azadirachtin-rich neem oil gets sprayed on crops as an organic substitute for other harsher insecticides that might be carcinogenic or have limited uses. Neem oil repels harmful insects like white flies, gnats, aphids, mites, and weevils, as well as strengthening the crops against rust, scab, mildew, and blight. Edible crops of vegetables do not get poisoned when neem oil is used.

Neem oil makes the plants it touches taste bitter, so pests won't eat them, as a "contact" insecticide. Azadirachtin also interrupts insects' transitions between different stages of metamorphosis, such as growing from larvae to pupae. It prevents insects from developing a hardened exoskeleton. When the chemical gets absorbed through the roots of crops, it functions as a "systemic insecticide." That means crops don't need to be constantly re-sprayed.

The greatest benefit of using neem oil is that it doesn't harm beneficial insects. Butterflies, earthworms, and bees all help plants pollinate or absorb nutrients. Lacewings eat insects trying to feed on the crops. But these bugs won't have a negative reaction to neem oil or azadirachtin.

Neem oil has even made it into cosmetic and household products. Lotions and skin sprays use the oil as a mild insecticide that isn't likely to cause rashes. If you soak cotton balls in neem oil and place them in your closet, it will dissuade wool moths from devouring your clothes. While neem oil smells faintly of garlic, many people prefer it to stronger chemical alternatives.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-neem-oil.htm

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Neem Oil
3 products in 1 - fungicide, insecticide & miticide!
Natural and organic
For indoor and outdoor use on ornamental flowering plants, trees, shrubs, foliage plants, vegetables, fruits and nuts.
Controls fungal diseases such as black spot, mildews, rusts and scab.
Kills mites and insects including whiteflies, aphids and scale.
Can be used up to day of harvest.
Derived from the oil of the Neem tree
Do not apply to wilted or otherwise stressed plants or to newly transplanted materials prior to root establishment.
Do not apply to known sensitive plant species such as impatiens, fuchsia, hibiscus, some roses, ornamental olive trees and some carnation varieties without prior testing.
Apply in early morning or late evening only.

http://www.daytonnursery.com/Products/Disease%20Control.htm

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[Dover]

2. Another non-chemical option?

Have you considered Floating Row Covers?

I found these while researching nonchemical options for my grasshopper problem. I think next year I'll introduce some guineas to the garden area, but until then this looked like a good solution.
How effective have your guineas been at reducing your pest problem? Just curious what problems they are NOT solving in the pest department.


http://www.gardenandhearth.com/OrganicVegetableGarden/Floating-Row-Covers.htm

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:VGEptuovtyoJ:plant-materials.nrcs.usda.gov/pubs/mipmcarcggfloatingcover.pdf+floating+row+covers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

http://www.veggiegardeningtips.com/floating-row-covers/


ADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES

Advantages Using Floating Row Covers

1) Frost protection, +2-4 F.
2) Wind protection for plant seedlings.
3) Insect protection.
4) Low cost, 1.8 to 2.7¢/sq. ft.
5) Transmits light (85% average), water, and air.
6) May be reused 2 to 3 years.

Disadvantages Using Floating Row Covers

1) Disposal costs of worn Floating Row Cover material.
2) Weeding under covering requires removal and reinstallation of staples.
3)Installation time required per linear foot of row is significantly higher than unprotected crops.
4) Pollination of crops is prevented unless the Floating Row Cover is periodically folded back to expose flowering plants.
5) There is some potential for plant abrasion by the Floating Row Cover on sensitive plants such as tomato and pepper seedlings. Floating spunbond polyester row cover supported by metal hoops.

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[bvar22]

4. No pest problem in the garden (yet).

We have used Neem Oil on our roses for aphids, bud beetles, and Black Spot. It has worked well.
We are very careful to use only minimal applications, very targeted to problem spots, and only after the bees have stopped flying in the evening.

We did (do) have a gray mold problem in our strawberries. Radical thinning, lacing in straw mulch, and minimal watering helped save about 1/2 of our crop. Black Spot has also developed and is spreading.
The Spring Strawberry crop is about over, and we plan to cut back the plants to ground level, clear all plant debris, let the sun cure the topsoil, and see what happens.
We had considered Neem Oil, but decided against it because of our commitment to natural methods, but also because Neem has an aroma that we didn't want transmitted to the berries.

While Neem Oil is touted as "a natural oil extract" and in some places "organic", we have some strong reservations. Hemlock is "Natural"!

Sevin seems way too toxic for us to introduce to our environment, but their advertising claim of "completely biodegrades' (within 24 hours?) did arouse my curiosity. I ultimately don't trust the pesticide Corporations. We don't want to do anything that may harm our honeybee colonies our ourselves. One of us is a cancer survivor, and very conscious of the myriad of toxins Modern Life has introduced into our environment.

It is too early to tell about the Guineas, since we haven't had any significant insect problem so far this year. They were very interested in the strawberries, and we had to net the berries.




We have great fun watching the Guineas, and interacting with them.
They did NOT like the netting.


Thanks for your research and reply.

[EstimatedProphet]

3. How about diatomaceous earth?

It is quite good at knocking out insects.