The anti-Western Med woos either have never been sick

[TZ]

or they have had shoddy medical treatment.
Here I am at Mayo clinic and the staff and treatment here are OUTSTANDING. The doctor I talked to was very good and I actually had a long SCIENTIFIC discussion with him about my condition. I had plenty of face time with him too.
Today I had a bone marrow biopsy which was done under sedation and therefore was relatively painless. I have some more tests and then on Friday I will discuss my results with the doctor.
Granted we are talking about one of the most prestigious medical centers in the world but if more people could get the level of treatment I have gotten here, maybe we wouldn't have so many people trusting their health to shysters and snake oil merchants.
Of course I have yet to see the bill..but still...Here is a real fine example of how our medical system should work. Too bad more people don't have access to this level of care in this country...

[Orrex]

1. Have them remove your fillings while you're there

And I also recommend a few rounds of chelation therapy, just to be on the safe side.


I'm delighted to hear that you're having a good experience--surely you've found the only doctor on the continent who isn't rifling through your pockets for loose change while you're sedated!


The other thing that kills me is when woos gripe about how "allopathic" doctors aren't interested in prevention. By the way, vaccines don't count as prevention...

[lizerdbits]

2. I have yet to hear of a doctor NOT say to someone

quit smoking, lose weight, eat better etc. I think the bottom line is most people don't want to change their lifestyle so they'd rather pop a cholesterol lowering drug (of course there are people who need them despite diet and exercise). I'm not sure if these people never go to doctors, had a bad experience and never went back or what. Based on what I've seen in the Health Scare Lounge there must be some common belief among the "natural" crowd that all doctors just throw pills at you.

[Orrex]

5. A note about prevention

It really annoys me when woos complain about doctors who "don't know a thing about basic nutrition," or the like. Often, it's in the context of the surgical oncologist who didn't brief the patient on the important of wheat grass juice, with the implication that every advanced specialist must be conversant in the latest woo-friendly diet fad.

Pseudomedical woos have a great advantage over actual doctors in that woos really have little to offer except nebulous dietary guidelines and a lot of mumbojumbo about "balance" and "energy." It's easy to talk at length about that shit--I'm confident that I could pass myself off quite convincingly. But actual doctors have to learn actual facts and actual methods of treatment, rather than "rub these on your feet to detoxify yourself."


For the record, my doctor always advises regular exercise and a diet of moderation. Every single visit, even on a follow up for a twisted ankle. But I guess that doesn't count as prevention, either, because it doesn't involve memory water.

[lizerdbits]

3. Your last sentence is absolutely correct

Everyone needs to have access to the best care. I'm not confident that it will change any time soon unfortunately.

[Warpy]

4. Part of it is a matter of control

They're completely out of control when a doc starts poking and prodding and trying to figure out just what's amiss. They don't have the knowledge to know what he's doing most of the time, let alone have a good idea of what's gone wrong. They're scared.

They find it hard to respect a doc's expertise because a lot of the time it's just not a two way street, also.

The quackery that's out there is much more under their control. They spend three hundred bucks on the juicer and try to make wheat grass and spirulina taste a little like green shit. They're the ones reading the books and picking out dozens of pills from the supplement shelves. They're the ones sticking those pads on their feet and slapping the bangles on their wrists.

People want to be self reliant and they don't appreciate feeling stupid when they don't know what's going on. Those are the two main reasons I found in my years dealing with people on both sides.

[CanSocDem]

6. If you'll indulge a woo-woo.....

...who seems to have wandered into the wrong party, I just happen to have endured the dilemma of resisting western medicine until my friends and family intervened, re-scheduled a C-scan that I had originally blown off (in favour of a chiropractor)...and within a week had brain surgery to remove a cyst.

Of course, my anti W-Med philosophy wasn't easily sold when all they had to say was "...It saved you."

And after a year of fearing every mild headache and running for western medicine, I got back to work and again took control of my health and well being.

That was over 10 years ago and "Every day and every way, I get stronger and stronger"


.

[NoodleBoy]

7. when you say anti-western-medicine, you should know what you're saying here,

to many of these people who are medical professionals.

"Western medicine" is usually shorthand for medicine that is based on observation and testing, rather than philosophy or tradition. That makes the term "western medicine" a misnomer, because the foundations of modern medicine are geographically diverse, drawing from all regions of the world.

What saved you from a cyst in your brain is, literally, the result of thousands of years and hundreds of civilizations isolating one treatment or therapy that worked better than others and trying to find out what made it work better. Often times, the treatments or surgeries can be so complex that the only thing a doctor or surgeon can say to you about it that you will understand is, "...It saved you."

Any professional in a field that requires around a decade of study will usually give the layperson the most basic, simple answer when asked about what they do. If you ask a modern astronomer how they can detect planets around distant stars, they will say, most simply, "They wobble because of gravity." They will not give you a history of astronomy, the names or contents of the equations which dictate the way light acts, the way gravity acts, and how the two interact, and they won't try to explain every minute detail of their equipment. If you ask a constitutional law scholar why or how Americans have gained reproductive rights, they will not talk about the foundation of Planned Parenthood, the birth control movement, or the long history of court cases from Marbury v. Madison to Roe v. Wade, they'll most likely just say to you, "Roe v. Wade overturned many restrictions."

So when a doctor doesn't bother explaining to you how cysts form, how scans detect them, or how BRAIN SURGERY works, you shouldn't immediately reject what they've done for you.

As far as that last little bit-- stressing out over every little mild headache WILL make you a nervous wreck and will make life miserable for you.

[CanSocDem]

8. To clarify...

"So when a doctor doesn't bother explaining to you how cysts form, how scans detect them, or how BRAIN SURGERY works, you shouldn't immediately reject what they've done for you."

My point is that none of that is important when all you want to do is end the pain and suffering. Some people might feel emboldened with that extra knowledge, but to me, in the pursuit of ending the pain, knowing all that stuff is just 'window dressing'.

I thoroughly believe that my reality is created by me, according to my beliefs and purposes. I cannot leave something as important as my personal health up to the opinions of others no matter their station in life.

In a free-market system like the USA, public health is a commodity to be bought and sold. Its' smooth functioning depends on convincing people they are powerless by themselves.

I gave up that notion decades ago.

Now, I believe you are actually ill-served by medical technology.


.

[semillama]

9. So, when you get sick, you are creating that reality?

Is that basically what you are saying?

In essence, you seem to be subscribing to a form of solipsism, perhaps radical empiricism.

[CanSocDem]

10. Yes...

Call it what you want.

People get sick for their own purposes. Often it is to test their own abilities. Another part of my belief system, that, perhaps accounts for the lack of fear when it comes to illness, is that consciousness not only survives death, but also chooses the time. Knowing that, and knowing how society works, keeps me healthy. Nothing else...


.

[TZ]

11. What the?

So you think I chose to have a bone marrow disorder? You don't beleive that exposure to toxic chemicals (the likely source of my problem) has anything to do with it?:crazy:

[CanSocDem]

12. Like I said...

...people choose ill health for their own reasons. I have no idea why you have a 'bone marrow disorder'. Maybe you wanted to visit the Mayo Clinic....

Anyway, we're all surrounded by toxic chemicals, contaminated food and lethal mosquitoes but only some of us get sick. Why is that....????

I know intelligent people who can't look through a doctors manual without acquiring most of the symptoms.


.

[TZ]

13. ummm genetics have something to do with it.

[salvorhardin]

14. So if you were to drink a liter of vodka...

So if you were to drink a liter of vodka, you would show no observable symptoms? After all, you said people choose ill health for their own reasons. So by your reasoning, you should have no problem ingesting large doses of alcohol. If that's true, there's still a million dollar prize waiting for you...

[LeftishBrit]

83. I suspect...

from his posts, that he may have drunk a litre of vodka already.

[Warpy]

17. Excuse me, hon

but I didn't decide at the age of 14 to get a painful, crippling, and occasionally fatal disease. I didn't choose to have that disease go unchecked for years because nobody thought a 14 year old kid could possibly be that sick. I didn't choose the pain and the disability and I sure as HELL didn't choose being uninsurable because of it for the last 20 years.

Shit HAPPENS and one of these days, Ms. "Icreatemyownreality," YOU are going to find that out, just as you're going to find out that although it happened to YOU, it's not happening to everybody else at the same time.

I sincerely hope it manages to provide an education in humility.

[CanSocDem]

18. You're excused.

And yes you did decide to get that "painful, crippling...disease" for your own reasons. And now you're living through it...kicking and screaming....but living.

Of course, all I know or care to know about you is what you choose to put in your post. If you want me to know that you are in pain, disabled and uninsured then that is the life you want to project. Whether shit happens to me or not, it is not what my life is about so I won't mention it. Telling me about your pain and discomfort doesn't convince me of the reality of your disease, just your reaction to it.

Try focusing on something else...it's amazing how that works.


.

[cosmik debris]

19. Wow!

It's like you never heard of bacteria or virus or accident or war.

I can't help but remember all the children who have died from e coli because they decided to eat a hamburger that their parents gave them.

Those kids sure made some bad decisions, didn't they.

[Silent3]

23. Fuck you.

That's all there is to say about your sickening blame-the-victim attitude. Fuck you.

(PS: Since you create your own reality, you're only seeing this message because you decided you needed to be told how stupid and insensitive you are. You obviously invited this experience into your life, for your own reasons!)

[CanSocDem]

27. Feel better now....???? (eom)

[Silent3]

31. Why bother asking?

I feel however you decide I feel. Why should "creating your own reality" stop at your own physical health? All of your physical sensations, including everything you see with your eyes and hear with your ears, is created by you, so you have no basis for believing there is anything but you and your imagination in the entire universe. There is only you, and all of the rest of us are purely figments of your imagination. We must be how you've decided to entertain yourself.

You're probably one of those people who thinks that the most stupid idea need only be introduced with the words "I believe that...", and all of a sudden whatever idiocy follows must be granted the Special Respect to which Beliefs are Entitled.

Civility in a pluralistic society only requires that I respect you right to believe as you wish, not what you believe itself. I find your beliefs stupid, short-sighted and worthy of nothing more than contempt.

[Seldona]

109. He/She should.

EOM

[varkam]

25. Holy hell.

May you live in interesting times, friend.

[LeftishBrit]

33. Wow fucking wow

If that's your attitude, why are you on a liberal board? There's nothing more right-wing than thinking that ill or disabled or poor people have somehow caused their own problems.

I believe that in Reagan's glorious reign, he tried to appoint somebody to the health department, who fortunately lost senate confirmation when it was discovered that she'd written an article arguing that disabled people shouldn't get government help, as God was punishing them for their sins. You sound like a sort of New Age version of the same thing.

[Book Lover]

89. How could my child have chosen autism in utero

when her brain wasn't yet formed?

You goddamn SOB. I can't wait to meet you at a party, so I can throw my drink in your face.

[CanSocDem]

90. You make it sound if it were....

...my fault that your child was born with autism. Or, somehow, that by striking out at me, you will feel better. If this is all about making YOU feel better then flame away.

However if your daughters condition is making you drink and become belligerent you should probably stop blaming yourself.

[Book Lover]

91. Your reading comprehension skills needs sharpening

I asked you to explain her condition within the confines of your worldview, which you have not done. Will you do so? On the other hand, don't bother; I'm selecting the ignore button for you.

[cosmik debris]

92. How incredibly cruel you are!

Blaming the child for deciding to be autistic is cruel. But blaming the parent for being angry at your crackpot woo woo explanation is just plain mean.

That kind of hatefulness may be accepted in the political forums, but this is a friendly forum where it is considered rude to be so incredibly insensitive and cruel.

On second thought, that kind od hatefulness is not acceptable anywhere.

[CanSocDem]

93. You are mistaken.

But since it is your party you can say what you want.

I am quite familiar with autism. It has many forms of abnormal behaviour, few that are completely acceptable to the general population, let alone the parents.

If I come to the USA, I'm sure I can find a doctor who will declare ME autistic. I mean...how can I be so cruel....?????

[cosmik debris]

94. ":...people choose ill health for their own reasons."

Saying that this child chose (in utero) to be autistic is fucking cruel and badly deluded.

You are right that there are many forms of autism, but NONE of them are chosen by their victims.

Your arguments are not different from "the blame the victim" arguments used by rapists.

And you have achieved the esteem of a rapist in this group.

No one would miss you if you took your hateful superstition somewhere else.

[CanSocDem]

95. Are you off your med's....

...or is that question unspeakably cruel as well??? I am not blaming the victim for anything.....are you that dense????

I'm saying WHATEVER you got you got for your own, obviously subconcious, intents and purposes.

I'm sorry that every person that attempts to enlighten you feels more like a "rapist" than someone trying to help. I hope you grow out of it.....

[cosmik debris]

96. That's just cold hearted.

To say that a child got autism from their own "obviously subconcious{sic}, intents and purposes"

That says that the child is responsible for her own condition. That's the same as saying that the rape victim is responsible for her own condition.

Your understanding of medical science and your insensitivity to others is reprehensible.

Why am I arguing with someone who has never heard of bacteria? I'm sorry, but you are too fucking stupid to have a conversation with.

[CanSocDem]

98. Your neurosis is deepening but....

...in a completely clueless way, you are getting close to understanding this.

"...the same as saying that the rape victim is responsible for her own condition."

If he/she perceives the act of intercourse as rape, then to him/her it is. I have no opinion on the consent issue because I wasn't there and it doesn't involve me. The biggest problem I have with the issue of rape is the cultural pressure that allows it to happen.

Getting this, Einstein....if you're too lazy to upgrade your community, you will have to live with your filth.


.

[lizerdbits]

97. How did the child choose autism?

Please elaborate.

[realisticphish]

15. all you have to do

is choose yourself better :shrug:

[CanSocDem]

16. There you go...!! (eom)

[varkam]

26. What a joke.

Not a funny one, either.

[semillama]

20. The only way you can argue with a solipsist like this

is when they or a loved one gets a horrible, painful disease and then they begin to have self-doubts about "creating their own reality".

Of course, a lot of solipsism is just how some folks justify being a callous jerk with no sense of empathy.

[realisticphish]

21. the thing is

they will feel bad, but only because their loved one doesn't believe hard enough

[CanSocDem]

24. Doubt.....????

I have NO DOUBT that my health is better since I quit worrying about it.

"... a lot of solipsism is just how some folks justify being a callous jerk with no sense of empathy."

That's cold, man....but I get your point.

However, a lack of 'empathy' in me is not a lack of 'concern'. I would rather educate than placate....

And the "horrible, painful disease" that does come my way, comes for a reason that I have to discover. Blaming something or someone is no longer an option for ME. Maybe you all are lucky that you have such easy scapegoats in your lives.

I'm REALLY sorry that you can't even be borne without the potential for something horrible....what with the 'genetic' influence and all.

[Silent3]

32. Have you ever heard of "multiple contributing factors"?

What does the fact that you have NO DOUBT that your health has improved since you stopped worrying about it prove? Very few people will deny that mental attitude has some effect on health. Your one personal story hardly warrants expansion into a universal all-encompassing absolute principle of total mental control over health.

What's wrong with recognizing multiple contributing factors? On what basis, other than vigorous assertion and the magic words "I believe that...", do you claim that what a person "decides" (using a curious definition of "decide" which includes decisions most people would think to be stupid decisions, decisions they don't recall having consciously made) totally overrides what bacteria, viruses, toxins, and genetic factors can do to human health? On what basis do all other well-documented factors in human health become mere "scapegoats" to be sneered at, feeble excuses for people who don't recognize your great wisdom concerning the power of the mind?

[CanSocDem]

35. Well...

"On what basis do all other well-documented factors in human health become mere "scapegoats" to be sneered at, feeble excuses for people who don't recognize your great wisdom concerning the power of the mind?"

It's not so much the 'power of the mind' as it is understanding the function of the mind.

If you will remember back, everything you know about consciousness (the mind etc...), was taught to you by someone else.

Considering that before you even thought about those things, you already believed that you were somehow 'plunked' into this objective, concrete world that already had rules. You're pretty easy pickins' for a culture that thinks it's a virtue to charge people for good health.

To get where I'm at..."total mental control over health...." all you need to realize is that your thoughts and beliefs create your reality.

If you would rather feel sick and powerless, you should stay home... rather than going out and hectoring people because they feel better than you.



.

[Silent3]

36. "understanding the function of the mind"

And your "understanding of the function of the mind" comes from where? More vigorous assertion?

[CanSocDem]

38. Do you stop reading....

...after the first sentence or are you just trying to bring me down....?????

.

[Silent3]

39. I can't bring you down unless you want me to.

That's entirely up to you. There is no "me" anyway, just your imagination, so I still don't understand why you're asking your own mental creations questions.

[CanSocDem]

41. OK...

One more time.

This philosophy is too complicated for you. You're there all right. Luckily you're just a ball of light that will soon be on your way. Hope you get to feelin' better!!


.

[Silent3]

43. No, your philosophy isn't too complicated...

...it's simplistic and stupid, but you're ignoring the full implications of what you claim, and all of your "complications" are just convenient blind spots to the necessarily solipsistic conclusions.

[lizerdbits]

51. This will be helpful at work

No more need for PPE and vaccinations, we'll just work without gloves and respirators, not worrying about what we might be getting exposed to. We'll save so much money not just in equpment but in a safety officer. Why worry about using radioactive nucleotides, chemicals like acetone, and infectious agents when we can avoid illness with changing how we think? :rofl:

[Random_Australian]

22. Ah, the "create your own reality" thing.

This argument tends to go in a fairly stereotypical way.

1) I say "Ha, if you can create your own reality, why don't you just 'create' giant bags of gold and prove it works?"

[onager]

28. But...every day, in every way, you get dumber and dumber!

Skeptics with a taste for Recreational Wooery probably recognized that little mantra immediately: "Every day and every way, I get stronger and stronger."

It's a garbled version of the self-help credo popularized by Emile Coue in the early 20th century: "Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better." Repeating that 20 times a day would cure all your ills.

As Coue put it: "Any idea exclusively occupying the mind turns into reality." Gee, that sounds familiar.

Coue was mostly viewed by the French as a crackpot who confused wishes with reality. But predictably he had a huge following in America, where "Coue Institutes" were set up to spread his gospel.

Not that there was anything new in the idea. In 1838 a Maine clockmaker named Phineas Quimby ran a traveling medicine show touting the same concept. Quimby put a young boy into a "hypnotic trance," during which the kid diagnosed sick people in the audience.

Sort of a John-Edward for the Pre-Dead, as it were. Quimby taught that a powerful spiritual, healing force existed in the universe, but it could only enter a mind thinking positive thoughts.

That sounds familiar, too. Quimby was basically rehashing the ideas of Franz Mesmer, who had a good run fleecing the French nobility just before the Revolution. Mesmer attracted the attention of two Americans in France at the time, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. They denounced him as a fraud who simply created a form of mass hysteria in his audiences.

In later times, the idea has been recycled by many different people, from Oprah's favorite book "The Secret" to America's own Socrates, Norman Vincent Peale ("The Power of Positive Thinking").

Naturally, some grumpy scientists had to go and spoil the whole positive thinking party:

A Scottish team looked at 26 studies on whether a patient's outlook affects survival. Ten of the studies examined the widely held belief that "fighting spirit" can help people live longer. Another 12 examined the opposite - whether people died sooner if their outlook was pessimistic.

Mark Petticrew's team at the Medical Research Council's Public Health Services Unit in Glasgow concluded that neither affects the final outcome (BMJ, vol 325, p 1066).

But Petticrew still urges people to stay optimistic. "There are lots of reasons to have a positive mental attitude other than survival, such as better quality of life and avoidance of anxiety and depression," he says.

From issue 2369 of New Scientist magazine, 16 November 2002, page 22

[CanSocDem]

29. Damn that positive thinking....

...even the skeptics agree it works.

"But Petticrew still urges people to stay optimistic. "There are lots of reasons to have a positive mental attitude other than survival, such as better quality of life and avoidance of anxiety and depression," he says."

Just the same, I'd like to hear how disease and illness picks its' victims. Just bad luck....????

God's punishment...????

So many diseases, so little of me....


You folks are a riot.


.

[TZ]

30. Yes. Random chance

Diseases aren't concious and "pick their victims". I should say your attitude would offend almost all the people I know....BTW, want to tell me how thinking positive avoids things like being bitten by a mosquito and picking up the malaria parasite? One of the world's deadliest diseases. And how come animals get sick? Do they have attitude problems is that why they get cancer and things like West Nile Virus?
Have you ever had a biology class?

[CanSocDem]

34. ??????

What do you mean here....????

"Random chance Diseases aren't concious and "pick their victims".

However I am surprised that you find my attitude 'offensive'. I have nothing but best wishes for your health and well-being. And I share your concern about the toxic chemicals in our environment, not to mention the de-humanized, industrialized social system that makes it all OK.

Your free-market medical industry survives because of your beliefs. It isn't some mystical, objective truth available only in the USA and only to those that can afford it.

Unfortunately, most of the USA is too consumed with the fear of financial ruin to actually analyze the nature of disease. Without that fear, you might have the time to discover that there are a lot of good alternatives to a culture that insists that anything of value has to be purchased from the proper vendor.

[Silent3]

37. Why worry about "toxic" chemicals?

There really is no such thing as "toxic", only the belief that a substance can harm you -- at least if you take your idiocy to it's logical conclusion. Don't believe these so-called toxins can harm you, and there you go. No problems. The only people left getting sick from so-called toxins must want to be sick.

[CanSocDem]

40. No....

...they don't "want to be sick". They are waiting for people like me to come along and tell them they have the power to make THEMSELVES better and build a better world.

Thanks to you, I'm getting that opportunity.


.

[Silent3]

42. So you have to know what to not worry about before not worrying about it...

...can make you better, but if you're completely unaware of toxins then you can't not worry about them in the correct way that makes you healthy?

[TZ]

44. ....."actually analyze the nature of disease"

Thats actually what I do everyday at work...Cell receptors ,cytokines, biomarkers...root causes of things like psoriasis,Lupus, Asthma,COPD, and other immunological disorders...And how best to treat it. I've also been tested twice for something called JAK2--thats the enzyme that contolls one of the pathways for the bone marrow to make platelets and other blood cells. So actually we do understand the roots of disease, but finding how to best treat them..thats the tricky part.

[Silent3]

45. But don't you realize...

...that all of that messy detail about cellular chemistry is just a creation of your own mind, your way of amusing yourself with how smart you are while digging yourself deeper into the quagmire of believing in an objective world? You could be doing soooo much more good for yourself and the rest of humanity if you spent your time on coming up with the right pretty thoughts to make all of your health problems go away, then generously spreading your wisdom on the internet. :eyes:

[CanSocDem]

46. Understanding the roots....

...isn't exactly 'analyzing the nature' of disease.

The question isn't "...where did this disease come from..." but rather "Why did this disease come to me...".


.

[Silent3]

47. And you think you know the "why"?

There's a ridiculous leap common to woo-woo thinking that starts with the notion "everything happens for a reason", and ends up turning that notion into the idea that everything happens for reasons explainable in terms of human emotions, human goals, human needs to "experience" or "learn" various things, etc.

Yet there's not the slightest evidence that this is true. Only after-the-fact interpretations of events done with an explicit desire to force-fit all events into this mind-centered model of how the universe works leads to such a conclusion. For example: Someone's car doesn't start on the morning a big explosion happens at their work place. In retrospect the woo-prone mind confidently declares that saving the car owner's life was the "reason" the car didn't start. Little details like why the cars of so many other people who died, or were permanently maimed, in the explosion did start are brushed off with just-so excuses (it must have been the time those others "needed" to die, etc.), if those deaths and injuries are even ever considered in the first place.

I'm sure you hate the word "random", but that's the best word to describe a big part of why any given person is exposed any particular disease, toxin, natural catastrophe, or act of human violence.

"Random" does not mean "no reason". The "reasons", however, come down to the long chains of events connecting every physical force acting on every particle. When these chains of events becomes far too complex to follow, and when the principles of chaos put computation of results beyond even theoretical calculation, events can be called "random" for all practical intents and purposes.

Of course, human choices play a big role in the odds of various risks. There's certainly lots you can do to reduce the odds of catching a disease or being a victim of a crime, for example. That's a far cry, however, from the absurd notion that person's mind is in complete control of what experiences "come to them" or not, or that they can gain such control by listening to the right New Age guru telling them how to do it.

The burden of proof is on you here, not me. Occam's Razor. I can reach my conclusions without creating "extra entities", like whatever fanciful system it takes to have human minds reach out beyond their bodies to deflect viruses and falling boulders, and without proving the existence of whatever system it take to perform arbitration and conflict resolution related to which minds gain control over what bits of external physical matter.

Oh, and by the way: Why don't people regrow lost limbs? Insufficient mental discipline to shake the notion that limb loss is permanent? A deep-down desire that just happens to be shared by everyone who has ever lost a limb to have a missing limb "experience" for the rest of their lives?

PS: If you think Quantum Mechanics and the "role of the observer" is all you need to justify yourself, you simply don't know enough about Quantum Mechanics.

[CanSocDem]

49. Random...shamdom...

And you wonder why I have trouble accepting YOUR science. Can't figure out why shit happens so you call it "random"/...not about you/...the way things are and always have been.

The capitalist culture of the USA has never been one to look too closely at the myths that bind it all together. I've looked....it's scary. Evidently, you people will believe anything.

.

[Silent3]

50. What the hell does "capitalist culture"...

...have to do with whether or not your mind is in control of sickness, and whether or not randomness exists?

As for accepting "my" science... the goal of science is quality of answers, not quantity. Just because you want to treat calling something "random" as if it's some sort of weakness to admit that you can't "figure out why shit happens" doesn't mean that declaring you know why things happens, and not having one shred of evidence to back it up, is better.

If I toss a die into the air, science can't tell me what number it will land on. The number of factors that one would have to measure and calculate, down to the slightest air current, the tiniest bump in every surface the die bounces upon, are too numerous, and the "sensitivity to initial conditions" too great, to call the result anything but "random".

But you can't predict the outcome any better either. All you can do is after the fact make up a story about why the particular number came up. And whether a bet was riding on the die or not, whether the person throwing the die wins or loses, whether the loss or gain is a pittance or life changing in great or terrible ways, you'll always tell the same story about how whatever happens was what this person "brought to himself".

By the way, I did not fail to notice you predictably avoided the tough question about loss of limbs, as I expected you would.

[CanSocDem]

52. It's not about 'win' or 'lose'....

And I'm talking about LIFE as well as this discussion.

"But you can't predict the outcome any better either. All you can do is after the fact make up a story about why the particular number came up. And whether a bet was riding on the die or not, whether the person throwing the die wins or loses, whether the loss or gain is a pittance or life changing in great or terrible ways, you'll always tell the same story about how whatever happens was what this person "brought to himself"."

The first step, obviously, is learning to accept what you have; or in the case of a 'missing limb', what you DO NOT have.

When you finally accept that your health is something YOU, yourself, can deal with...as in make better or make worse...you will begin to feel your power.

Don't eat so much garbage, walk to work, wear proper shoes.....etc. You will feel better. And remember this, doctors are in it for the money. Sorry to sound cynical but it's even worse than you imagine.


.

[Silent3]

53. That's a long, long way from the "create your own reality" claim

Having to exercise, eat right, and wear sensible shoes is a long, LONG way from "creating your own reality". If I could create my own reality, I'd eat whatever the hell I wanted, never exercise, and still come out in glowing health and looking like a greek god.

Having to accept a missing limb is also a pretty powerless position to be in, if the only power you can have is over how well you accept and deal with the loss, but not the actual ability to fix the problem and heal the loss.

As for "doctors are in it for the money. Sorry to sound cynical but it's even worse than you imagine." -- I'm capable of recognizing that there are bad doctors, and even mostly good doctors that get lead astray by money despite otherwise good intentions, without needing to go overboard on cynicism. I certainly like to get paid for what I do for a living -- software engineering -- but I also do programming projects of my own just for the fun of it, I give away public domain code and run free web sites. Paid or not, I take pride in the quality of my work well beyond what's necessary to convince someone to pay me well for it.

If that's true for me and my own kind of work, why should I assume that nearly all doctors (especially doctors of the dreaded western medicine!) are members of a corrupt conspiracy of greedy, money-grubbing bastards playing me for every dollar, regardless of the cost to my health, rather than people who more or less actually care about making people better?

[CanSocDem]

54. Not so far....

"Having to exercise, eat right, and wear sensible shoes is a long, LONG way from "creating your own reality"."

Really....!!??? Someone does your exercises???? Eats for you....????

My point, clearly, is that you do what you can to take charge of your life. Start small. Gain confidence, open your mind.

If you put as much energy into your own well-being as you are putting into discrediting MY well-being, you'd be there already.

As for 'western doctors', it's about the system, not the individuals. Public health is a human right.

.

[Silent3]

56. Who's trying to "discredit your well-being"?

You seem to have some enormous chip on your shoulder about something, and are bound and determined to read attacks where there are none. Where did I ever "discredit your well being?"

I AM NOT denying you are healthy.

I AM NOT denying that there are plenty of things a person can do on their own to improve their health via diet, exercise, and yes, even positive thinking.

What I am arguing against is excessive claims of the efficacy of those things. What I am arguing against is your blame-the-victim idea that somehow if you get sick you must have in someway summoned the illness to come to you.

"Having to exercise, eat right, and wear sensible shoes is a long, LONG way from "creating your own reality"."

Really....!!??? Someone does your exercises???? Eats for you....????

What do your questions have to do with what I said? You throw around phrases like "create your own reality", as if one could magically solve any health problem with the power of the mind, but then act utterly shocked, like you don't even recognize the things that should follow from your own words.

If I could create my own reality, no one would have to eat for me or exercise for me. My biochemistry would automatically process whatever I ate, no matter how "unhealthy" by normal standards, into healthy results for me. My body would grow well-toned muscles, a strong heart, and a strong respiratory system without the need for me, or anyone else, to exercise to get those results.

All of that is of course a fantasy. I recognize that. But so is "creating your own reality" by force of will, and if your fantasy were true, my fantasy would be have to be true as a part of that fantasy -- that's what I'm trying to point out. Your version of "creating your own reality" apparently has a lot of fine print restrictions that you aren't spelling out.

[CanSocDem]

57. here's the problem....

"If I could create my own reality, no one would have to eat for me or exercise for me. My biochemistry would automatically process whatever I ate, no matter how "unhealthy" by normal standards, into healthy results for me. My body would grow well-toned muscles, a strong heart, and a strong respiratory system without the need for me, or anyone else, to exercise to get those results."

Now who's blaming the victim....????

Not everybody wants or needs a 'perfect' body. In case I haven't actually "spelled" this, out, implicit in my belief system is that we are here in this reality to LEARN....and we get second chances if we are too distracted this time around. Those people who were borne with 'missing limbs' or congenital diseases have acknowledged that there are important things to learn EVEN WITHOUT a perfect body.

This is where the 'capitalist culture' comes into play. It creates these phoney ideals that you bust your ass pursuing....like appearance over substance.

Like I said earlier, this philosophy is complicated and hard to explain. If you believe in the one-life-then dead scenario I doubt if I'll even try....your move.


.

[Silent3]

58. So, you use phrases like "create your own reality"...

...but there are all sort of unspoken rules to what exactly this means.

If you lost a limb, you're here to "learn" about how to deal with such losses.
If you don't like your body, you're here to "learn" about how such things are superficial anyway.

Etc., etc.

You're the expert on these things, of course, not the people who might be unhappy about these things. They're creating their own reality, just as they want it or need it to be, even if they don't know or agree with that.

There are right things and wrong things to desire, you're the arbiter of what's right and wrong to want, and all the stuff anyone desires that they don't get are the wrong things to desire anyway.

Yes, your philosophy is "complicated", but not because it contains Deep Truths you may or may not have articulated yet, but because it makes no sense and is full of ad hoc patchwork rationalizations.

I rather doubt there is anything more than this life, although I don't make any absolute claim. As far as I know, this whole life of mine is just a simulation, and some day I'll wake up and find out the I'm some ten-tentacled creature floating in a tank that's been running a human life simulation. Who knows? I live my life based on what's knowable, and that isn't knowable, nor is any speculation about afterlives or reincarnation either.

You think you get to assert that their are afterlives and/or reincarnation as a belief freebie, and that whatever elaborate story line you build up around the "purpose" of these multiple lives is supposed to strike me as a well-reasoned conclusion?

[realisticphish]

59. oh yeah?

well we only use 10% of our brains, so what do YOU know????

[CanSocDem]

60. I should be more specific....

...with you. I should have said "...create your own learning environment"

Set your own goals based on a working knowledge of the nature of consciousness and the natural spiritual aspirations of...life.

As far as 'elaborate story line's' go and coming to a "well-reasoned conclusion", nothing taxes my sense of logic more than the christian myth. I was raised with it but found it 'wanting' by my late teens.

And now, what I learned over the past 40 years is that both the church of religion and the church of science, attempt and succeed(if you let them), to set YOUR curriculum. If you've never been able to see past them you're destined to spend your life trying to make your case with people like me.....

[cosmik debris]

61. Yep, turtles all the way down. n/t

[TZ]

62. "church of science"

You really don't understand the scientific method do you? There is no "faith" involved. It is evidence based.
If not how come my tests can measure the PRECISE AMOUNTS OF DRUG in a sample and also see how the body reacts to that drug by measuring that antibody response. And how come we can easily match up the symptoms a person is having with the levels of drug we measure when said person has NO IDEA of what our test results are?

[CanSocDem]

64. There's a "method"....???

...Just kidding, I know there is; and you have lot's of accurate instruments as well. The thing about "creating your own reality" is that it includes all the supporting evidence as well. Your measurements are still your creation so it stands to reason that they will confirm your beliefs.

I guess the basis of my disagreement with your OP is that you proudly promote the virtues of 'science' over the magnificent genius of the human body, that actually INVENTED the 'science' that you proclaim as the reigning authority.

You will find a much better explanation of my beliefs here:

http://www.sethlearningcenter.org/

[uberllama42]

67. Double-blind tests prevent results from merely coforming

to preconceived expectations. In a pharmaceutical test, for instance, one person might administer a dose while another person would measure the effects on the test subject. There are also control groups used to measure the placebo effect, which is then compared to the results from the live test.

Despite what you may tell yourself, medical tests are conducted by methods devised precisely to prevent the effect you describe.

The human body does many amazing things, and science is not opposed to them. Science is in part an effort to understand the workings of the body. Pointing out that the body "INVENTED the 'science'" doesn't mean anything. You're setting up a false dichotomy.

[Silent3]

63. I'm not supporting the Christian myth

I'm not supporting any myth at all. I'm for eschewing all myth. Maybe your myth is "better" in some sense than the Christian myth, it suits your sensibilities better, but it doesn't sound like your myth has any more substance backing it up. As far as I can tell you've simple chosen whatever seems to have the prettiest internal logic by your own tastes, something that "works" for you in a very loosely defined, undemanding sense of the word "works", and that's, by gosh, good enough for you, and good enough for going around making broad unequivocal statements on the way the universe supposedly works.

On the basis of authority do you go around telling me, or anyone else, that some version of ourselves, of which we have no conscious recollection, made a bunch of decisions that we now have to live by so the we can "learn" things? That's not only totally unsupported by any evidence, but it gets to be downright nasty and presumptuous when it becomes an explanation for diseases, injuries, and other tragic events.

[CanSocDem]

65. I can see that....

...you are bound and determined to be offended.

"....it gets to be downright nasty and presumptuous when it becomes an explanation for diseases, injuries, and other tragic events."


Just for the record, what's YOUR "...explanation for diseases, injuries, and other tragic events."

Katrina...???? Random???

911....??? Random???


.

[uberllama42]

68. Do you really want us to go into the meteorology behind hurricanes?

Or the cultural and geopolitical factors that led to the 9/11 attacks? There are causal explanations for everything that happens, but not everything that happens has some metaphysical purpose.

Your personal incredulity notwithstanding, Hurricane Katrina was a random event. A number of hurricanes form every year between June and November. They are the result of natural forces on which human activity has little or no influence. There were also human factors in the disaster: the people who staffed FEMA were incompetent and complacent; many people didn't have the resources to leave New Orleans before the storm. Do you believe that Katrina befell the residents of New Orleans because they personally chose it? Was it a collective decision or did that destruction happen to all those people because one resident decided it needed to happen to them?

The same can be said of the 9/11 attacks. It wasn't random in the sense that hurricanes are random, but the causal chain that led to the attack does not remotely conform to your solipsistic ontology. Again, which one of the victims choose for the attack to happen to them? Was there one person in each WTC building, and one person at the Pentagon? Or was it a collective decision by all the victims? If that is the case, what if one person on one plane had had a change of heart somewhere along the way and decided he didn't want to die in a gruesome terrorist attack?

Don't you see that blaming people for dire and painful misfortunes they could not possibly have brought on themselves is offensive? No one in this thread has overreacted to the things you have said. They really are odious.

[CanSocDem]

69. It's your science.

"Don't you see that blaming people for dire and painful misfortunes they could not possibly have brought on themselves is offensive? No one in this thread has overreacted to the things you have said. They really are odious."

And I 've noticed that a few posters like you, think I am "blaming the victim"....

I haven't really responded to that because it has no merit. It is a familiar refrain around DU however, where most of us see ourselves as supporters of victims rights. I wouldn't be here if it was any other way.

But to address your point. I don't see how acknowledging the incredible healing ability of the body in contrast to the over-priced, pharmacological nightmare that is your health system, could be offensive....to big pharma, maybe, or someone else who has a stake in keeping people ignorant.

What I find odious is your presumption that your belief system is the only one with merit.


.

[TZ]

70. its got merit

because its been repeatedly demonstrated to WORK. Where as there is no sound scientific data for your ideas.
And those "pharmacological nightmares" you refer to has kept most of my family members alive much longer than any of the previous generation. Just sayin.
Why has the average life span increase greatly with modern medicine. And why is it much lower in countries that have less access to drugs and doctors?(and for example the lifespan her is about 70..In Mali, a country where in a previous job I helped with clinical trials the average life span is 40?)

[CanSocDem]

71. I keep saying....

...it's not the drugs, it's your belief in them.


.

[Silent3]

73. You keep saying many things...

...that have absolutely no evidence behind them, or maybe at most a tiny kernel of truth exaggerated out of all reasonable proportion.

[uberllama42]

76. I already explained how a double-blind test works

and you ignored it. See my post #67 for a rudimentary explanation of how we know pharmaceutical drugs work.

[Silent3]

79. I'm going to have to reiterate the idea of the double-blind test, I see.

If you're participating in a trial for a new drug, the typical methodology means that you won't even know if you're getting the real drug or a placebo. Not only that, even the doctors and technicians won't know what you're getting until the end of the trial.

If the efficacy of a drug were based solely on your belief in the drug, and nothing more, the effects of the real drug and the placebo would always be the same.

The placebo effect is real, and merely believing something will make you feel better often does accomplish the task. In order to be declared successful, however, a new drug has to do BETTER than the placebo. In other words, the new drug has to show an effect demonstrably greater than the effect that a patients mere belief can produce by itself.

Plenty of drugs manage to do better than belief alone all of the time.

[Silent3]

72. What's wrong with an element of randomness?

Why does that bother you so much? Why do you practically sneer at the suggestion of randomness?

Does your peace of mind require that every single thing that happens has a human-sensible reason, as in being part of a "plan" or a "scheme" or a design?

Do you equate calling something "random" with giving up, admitting some sort of unacceptable defeat, perhaps with giving into some sinister plot by others to control you?

Do you think making up answers and stomping your feet that there MUST be a reason for everything (where "reason" means tied to a Purpose with a Capital P) is better than accepting that some things might be beyond our control, or anyone else's control?

I can tell you plenty of reasons diseases, injury, and other tragic events. Having a virus enter your body, having a tree fall on your head, etc. Why do those things happen? In particular cases, we might be able to answer the first why, and the why that comes after that. Does the chain of question and answers have to terminate in a "lesson plan" or some other Grand Purpose to be a "proper" answer for you?

You can't answer every "why" either. Why do we have to learn things? What purpose does it serve to live repeated lives learning different things each time? Why can't knowledge just be in-born or transferred without living through experience? If we grow in wisdom or knowledge over time, then what?

[CanSocDem]

74. Randomness suggests....

...a lack of purpose. My trust and confidence in the human spirit and observing our current condition tells me that we have a purpose and that we don't have a lot of time to sit around feeling sorry for ourselves.

Don't for a minute think that I haven't had the equivalent of a tree falling on my head. Don't call me out when I don't get up and shake my fist at the tree.


"If we grow in wisdom or knowledge over time, then what?"

Ironically, you'll probably feel really stupid.

:woohoo:


.

[Silent3]

78. Your "trust and confidence"...

...frankly doesn't mean a whole lot when you're making grand claims about the very nature of the universe and human experience, claims for which evidence, not just your personal feelings, should abound if true.

And you keep conflating bizarre things that have nothing to do with what I'm saying, or what anyone else here is saying. When you say, "we don't have a lot of time to sit around feeling sorry for ourselves", who here as said anything in advocacy of self pity, or said that even remotely implies that?

(Besides, if we can spend multiple lifetimes learning a few different lessons in each life, and can come back for another life if there's still more to learn, that certainly sounds like we have the luxury of a great deal of time. Where's the rush?)

Is your "logic" that unless you vigorously assert that there has to be a "purpose" for everything that the only alternative left is to sit around feeling sorry for yourself?

I personally think I'd feel worse thinking that I was personally responsible for some terrible event in my life, and pissed at myself for having the stupid idea to "teach myself a lesson" in some hideous and awful way. If I were a victim of the horrible medical experiments performed by the Japanese during WWII I'd rather think that dumb, impersonal chance landed me in such terror and misery than think I'd been so stupid and self-destructive as to choose to do that to myself.

At any rate, the universe is as it is, and observing the universe and looking for verifiable patterns of cause and effect has a much better track record for uncovering how things work than trying to figure out which explanations make us feel the best about whatever is happening around us.

Your "reasoning" seems to be: If I imagine that this is how things work, and all of these things in my life have a purpose and that I'm supposed to learn from all of the bad things that happen, then I'll feel better and won't sit around feeling sorry for myself... therefore that must be true because it's the most satisfying answer that makes me feel the best about life.

If we grow in wisdom or knowledge over time, then what?"

Ironically, you'll probably feel really stupid.

Okay... you learn all of this stuff just to help you realize how stupid you really are. Then what? What is the purpose of having achieved a deeper understanding of one's stupidity and ignorance? Is that the final goal of life, or is that just to prepare you for yet another step? And what would be the purpose of that next step?

You object to the notion of randomness because it somehow offends your need to see "purpose" in everything. What you aren't getting is that there can be no such thing as "purpose" in an ultimate sense.

Q: What was the purpose of getting up this morning?
A: To go to work.
Q: What was the purpose of going to work?
A: To make money.
Q: What is the purpose of making money?
A: Among many things, in order to buy food.
Q: What is the purpose of buying food?
A: Survival.
Q: What is the purpose of survival?
A: Learning.
Q: What is the purpose of learning?
A: Spiritual growth.
Q: What is the purpose of spiritual growth?
A: ???

Maybe you can take that a step or two further, maybe not. But every answer leaves open another obvious question. There is no end. Many tempting answers will send you into a pointless circular argument. You can't establish ultimate purpose because there is no purpose you can state that can't be questioned, that is inherently necessary or final.

[onager]

48. Now you're really getting desperate.

Petticrew's statement about a positive mental attitude is a LONG way from your gibberish about people "deciding to be sick."

Just out of curiosity, have you ever explained this to the parents of children with congenital diseases?

And if you do so, would you buy yourself a large life insurance policy and make me the beneficiary?

[cosmik debris]

55. In my reality which I created

You will certainly win a Darwin Award.

[uberllama42]

66. Oh, snap! n/t

[NoodleBoy]

75. holy carp. my internet goes down for the weekend after I make a reply to a post

and then it spawns its own little flame war, complete with the moran replying "nuh-uh!" and "because I said so!!"

Did he know my internet was down?? Maybe he just created that reality or something and acted on it.

[realisticphish]

77. he created the emotional reality

of a DOS attack :evilgrin:

[Nevernose]

80. No, no, no -- we create our OWN emotional realities.

NoodleBoy's service was out because on some level he WANTED it to go out (or he didn't pay the bill). Just like all those Rwandan infants slaughtered with machetes WANTED to be beheaded, and Vietnamese peasant girls WANTED to die in a hellish agony of napalm, and those forty-some-odd victims of Jeffrey Dahmer WANTED to be eaten alive.

Haven't you read The Secret? It was on Oprah, so it must be true.

[NoodleBoy]

81. turns out I had nothing to do with it-- my roommate's fiancee messed up some cables before they went

out of town.

So unless I have some weird mind control over her, and I don't want to, I had nothing to do with it.

[Silent3]

82. What I'd really like to know...

...is if dying as a child being burned by napalm is something I've already learned about in a previous life, or if I still have that on my "to do" list. I think I can already figure out that it would be a really, really bad thing, but gosh, there's just no teacher like actual experience, and I wouldn't want to miss any of the subtle nuances.

Isn't it funny how I have absolutely no knowledge of setting up my "lesson plan"? I guess that's just how the system works. I shouldn't complain, since apparently I decided to do things this way... unless perhaps one of the lessons I'm supposed to learn in this particular life is what it feels like to complain about things which I can't control, which I actually can control but controlled before I was born and can't change now until after I die and this set of lessons is over?

[Nevernose]

84. You haven't experienced it yet

I know because I just did your horoscope while focusing my energies on magnetic crystals (illuminated, naturally, by aromatherapy candles) and soaking my feet in ionized water.

Now, you may be thinking, "That's total crap!" But I was told to do this by my psychic guide, a woman who personally communicated with the ghost of one of my past lives, and this benevolent spirit helped me to recover a memory of ritualistic Satanic abuse and how Satan didn't want me to do your horoscope which is why I was ritually abused to begin with. We met at a support group for alien abductee survivors. She's fully accredited by the American Commision on Paranormal Research -- an organization made up of some of the most-respected psychics and astrologers in the world -- so how could any of this be total bullshit? Besides, in my heart, I know it's all true.

For instance, just this morning my horoscope said that I'm probably not going to contract a fast-acting flesh-eating bacteria, and I DIDN'T. The signs of the stars provided me with a hypothesis, observations were made, and the hypothesis was corect. That's science, man, SCIENCE!

If you'll excuse me, I have to drink eight ounces of oure mercury. WESTERN "doctors" say that mercury is bad for you, that it will kill you, or cause brain damage, but they just want to sell you Big Pharma Poisons -- besides, people drank mercury for good health for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before modern "medicine" said it didn't work. I'll go with what people have been doing safely for thousands of years, thank you very much.

(Did I leave anything out?)

[lizerdbits]

85. Colon cleansing and kinoki foot pads

a clean colon and removing toxins help you focus your energies on the crystals.

[madinmaryland]

86. Hmmm. I did that this morning and feel much better!!1!!

:hurts:

:rofl:

[Nevernose]

87. And ear-candling and urine-drinking

When you really sit down to think about it, the amount of bullshit that people buy into is mind-boggling. It's like looking up at the night sky and trying to really process the number of stars in the universe. Except that it smells like that place I was ordered to do community service when I was sixteen.

Is there even enough room on the Internet for all of the woo-woo stuff in the world? I might have to start drinking again...

[LeftishBrit]

88. Yes but it has to be genuine YAK urine!

[lizerdbits]

99. I suggest you leave the party

why all your posts haven't been deleted yet is a mystery to me. This is the skeptic group and this shit needs to be in the alternative healing group.

[CanSocDem]

100. OK, but.....

...if you think you are in a "skeptic group", you are sadly mistaken. It feels more like some kind of weird recovery room, where every mention of self-responsibility brings squeals of protest from all over the spectrum.

You clearly have no interest in expanding your understanding of the world so I can understand why this thread is a mystery to you. Perhaps, when you finish high school, you will be prepared...
I'm skeptical.

.

[lizerdbits]

101. Oh boo hoo I've been insulted

:rofl:

This group is skeptical of ideas like we mentally cause our own illnesses, as many of us have backgrounds in science. Your only point in being here is to antagonize people, otherwise you'd be posting in the alternative healing group about how you thought really hard about not being sick anymore. I'm done trying to discuss anything with you, you are only interested in posting bullshit and telling people they're not grown up enough to believe what you believe.

[realisticphish]

102. skepticism

is not cynicism. Skeptics do not just deny everything. We require reasonable evidence for claims, that's all. And you have not provided any. You've just been spouting the pseudo-philosophical crap that we deal with on a daily basis coming from woos. You have behaved no differently than David Icke or Deepak Chopra. We just aren't going to take you seriously when you wear the mantle of "my pet woo is unprovable, but you should believe it anyway, even though it has no basis in any aspect of reality."

You're not here to discus, you're here to antagonize. And you're not even creative. You've been so smug, acting as if you have dealt death blows to science with every post, when in reality you're just using the same old, tired, decades old arguments that have been deflected again and again. That's why people get angry. No ones afraid of you, no one is terrified of seeing the truth, or tearing down the Establishment, blah, blah, we're just sick to death of the same bullshit.

Goodbye.

[lizerdbits]

103. ..

:applause: :toast:

Of course now I can't see any of the replies.....

[realisticphish]

104. i haven't been getting down and dirty

but i've been reading...

I have a feeling we're probably almost done with this, but if not, than I may have to finally break out the ignore list. It's been silent for years :(

[TZ]

105. Well at least wait to see if he responds to R_A in the other thread

That ought to be interesting...Superwoo vs. Dr. Logic....
BTW, did you know this is all my fault because I posted praise of Mayo?:eyes:

[realisticphish]

107. i'm partial

to ketchup, myself

:P

[salvorhardin]

108. Not Big Condiment!

How could you!? ;-)

[mr blur]

106. You know, you really are an arrogant arsehole

I can't believe how stupid you are and how proud of it you seem to be.

Your idiotic "I make myself ill/I make myself better" Woo nonsense, far from being an expression of your wonderful self-responsibility, is really no more than self-delusion and irresponsibility.

You are the worst kind of ignorant fool because you may even have enough intelligence to see how stupid you are being if you could take your head out of your arse long enough to register the contempt you generate.