The basis of my skepticism and downright dislike for alt-med

[Heddi]

not that anyone particularly cares, but I get to go into work 4 hours later than normal so I don't have much to do other than bore my internet friends :)

---

When I was about 12 or so, my Aunt's husband was found to have a particularly nasty type of Leukemia or cancer. Sadly, I don't know what he had, other than it was bad.

He was a healthy guy--lived in SoCal, built Baja Bugs and did races in Baja every year with his wife and kids. Great guy. Loved him, and love my aunt like they were my closest family (even though they lived 3000 miles away and I think I only saw him 2x's in my life).

He was doing something in his garage and he cut himself pretty badly. Had to go to the ER and they drew routine tests and something was off...I would assume white blood cells, but I don't know. Anyway, within a few weeks he had this dreadful diagnosis and a guy that wasn't even 45 was told he had just months to live.

He went through conventional treatment for a time, but it was very expensive and insurance at that time wasn't as great (ha) as it is today.

Living in SoCal, he and his wife had a plethora of faith healers and snake oil salesmen and horse blood and crystals that would cure his cancer lickety split!

It was his only hope. Conventional therapy made him weak and bald and thin and sick. This must be it, right?

The two of them traveled the southwest, Arizona, NM, Nevada, CA...all in search of that ONE thing that would fix him, that would make him right, let him see his grandbabies born and live at least one day longer than he did before.

---

They were drained, financially. All the chemo in the world would have never cost what these charlatans did. And unlike the Oncologists he was working with, they gave him false hope. The Oncologist was very straight forward about his prognosis and his illness. We may be able to put it in remission, but it is very advanced and very poor prognosis despite our best efforts.

But these charlatans....they told him they could cure him. Magical waters from hidden springs known only by extinct tribes of MexoAmerican. Blood from specially raised horses. Crystal light therapy and hypnosis....All of these things WOULD cure him. WOULD let him see his daughters have grandchildren. Would let him see his wife one more day. Would would would.

---

He died. Perhaps earlier than he would have if he had not shunned traditional medical therapy for bogus and unfounded health claims. He never saw grandchildren, and the last days with his wife were painful and awful. He never got hospice therapy because he was told he didn't need it. He was told that the increasing weakness, inability to eat, inability to control his bowels and sporadic bleeding form his anus was his body's way of fighting the cancer. It was his body's way of starving the cancer. He didn't need hospice because he wasn't going to die. He just had to tough it out, eat some herbs, drink some magic water and hold those crystals in his pockets. He was gonna be okay.

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They believed that if they were told something then it had to be true. If someone called themselves "doctor" then they had to have gone to medical school.

Please know that this was in the mid 1980s, no internet, no databases, no quick access to pages of litigation and accusations and proof regarding this treatment or that therapy.

---

She is haunted by the decisions they equally made together. She admits that they were never forced to make these choices, but they felt compelled because of the overtly positive messages they were given. When the "doctor" he was seeing for cancer-killing supplements told him no need to go to the ER because of rectal bleeding, or a 10lb weight loss, they BELIEVED him, despite their best thoughts that they shouldn't. He HAS to know what he's talking about or else he wouldn't be able to SAY it. You just can't SAY SHIT that isn't true, especially when you're telling it to people who are DYING, when you tell their families to go ahead and make plans 5 and 10 and 20 years in the future because he'll be around that long. That traditional medicine JUST WANTS HIM DEAD and doesn't want to treat him.

---

Unforgivable. Caveat Emptor. Laws against Fraud. Talk to the FDA. Globalization. How can we test tumeric when tumeric can't be patented? No one has ever been killed by vitamin C or kinoki foot pads.

Unforgivable.

[TZ]

1. Interesting

It's probably hard to live with that guilt..alot of people blame themselves for falling prey to con-artists (which is what many are)...did you know that well into the 80's the FDA gave alt-med practitioners a pass because the founder was an altie? And that Congress acted to get rid of the powerful influence of that lobby on the FDA?
But of course we all know that alties don't make a profit..they do it out of the goodness of their heart...:sarcasm:

[Heddi]

2. My issue with the "fraud" claim

is that it goes beyond fraud. It's malpractice and fraudulent practice (not fraudulent claims). If you tell someone that their product will 100% for sure cure your cancer, and it doesn't, it's not just a product that was faulty, it was sheer deceptive advertising AND deceptive advertising that may have caused someone to NOT seek other treatment because of the fraudulent claims.

I mean, fraud is that I paid a contractor $1000 to put in a deck and he wasn't licensed or bonded and did a shitty job. Or I sent $10 for a book and never got it. THAT is fraud.

However, deliberately manipulating people who are emotionally and physically fragile because of their own chronic or fatal illness or injury OR the loved ones who can make decisions on behalf of someone who has chronic or fatal illness or injury goes beyond whether the guy that was supposed to clean my carpets did the job he was paid to do.

It is malpractice.

When a MD does a procedure on a patient, that patient has to be consented. Legal consent means that they are told the benefits AS WELL AS the risks of the procedure, that the risks cannot be minimized and the benefits cannot be exaggerated. ALL risks--infection, bleeding, death. The procedure must be explained in terms that the patient can understand, the patient must be allowed to ask questions, and the patient must be given truthful alternatives to the procedure, if any exist.

That's why someone who gets a scar after surgery can't sue for malpractice--scars are an expected part of surgery. However, someone who states that the MD didn't tell them that half of their bowel was going to be removed, or who did something neglegenlty could possibly follow through for malpratice.

But these conmen dont' have to follow the same rules. They can say whatever they want. They don't have to have any proof. They can make extraordinary and false claims regarding their product. They don't have to name the risks if they don't want to. They can exaggerate, or completely make up the benefits. They can use confusing and inappropriate terms and words.

THAT goes beyond fraud.

[Warpy]

20. Unfortunately, it's also hard to prove malpractice

because there is no way to prove that conventional medicine would have saved the life of a person with such a grave illness. Yes, he had a better chance, but it wasn't much of a chance and it was ruining the time he had left.

The fraud occurs when an altie practitioner tries to pass himself off as a medical doctor with a state medical license. Most of them are a little slicker than that because if something goes wrong (and it always does), you can sue them and get them thrown into prison into the bargain.

[Tumbulu]

3. You know there are many alternative med folks who are not like those your uncle saw

I am going to go and see some dear old friends in about a week. Lester was diagnosed with two kinds of cancers four years ago. His doctor said he had three months to live. My friend left the office and went to an alt med guy who has helped him be happy and healthy all these years. He goes to his regular doctor every three months and his doctor is amazed and happy. Now, though his cancers are progressing so we are all assuming that his time is drawing near and that is why I am going to travel out to say hello and good-by.

He has not spent lots of money on this alt med guy. From the phone calls it is my understanding that the main treatment is laughter and lots of it and concentrating on savoring his life. And eating good organic food. All good sensible stuff.

I don't see why it has to be a one or the other thing. For some people prayer really works, for others it is laughter or positive thinking. There are a huge group of people who seem to worship marijuana. The regular physicians are swamped with patients and thus overworked and under appreciated. If someone goes to a chiropractor for a sore neck this does not mean they won't go to a doctor for a pap smear. It just means they go to whoever they think can help them with the particular problem of the day. Most people that I know appreciate the help of all of the health professionals.

I sure do.

I am sorry that you had such a sad experience in your family.

[HamdenRice]

4. So your skepticism is based on the fallacy of composition?

Fallacy of composition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole ...

<end quote>

So your uncle had a very bad experience with alternative medicine, and you infer from that, that all alternative medicine is the same as the alternative medicine your uncle experienced?

Some of us have had horrendous experiences with the orthodox medical system. Does that justify us condemning all orthodox medicine?

No.

A skeptical approach toward medicine would evaluate the benefits and flaws of each particular claim presented to us on the basis of evidence and consensus science.

Several friends within the orthodox medical establishment are extremely critical of their own system. In particular, a professor of medicine I am close to, is doing groundbreaking research on the connection between nutrtition and disease, and to make a long complicated story short, she has evidence that because so many working class and middle class families are eating too much fast food and processed food, many of the diseases she sees in her clinical practice are actually the result of malnutrition -- right in the middle of New York City.

Can you infer that this research, being done at a major teaching hospital, is a priori wrong because your uncle died while being mis-counseled to rely on crystals?

No.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TZ]

6. Ummm this is far from the only case of fraud in alt med

Its an UNREGULATED environment. Since you are the classic Big Pharma is teh evul type shouldn't it bother you that an entire industry can just MAKE UP SHIT AND HAVE NO LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT?
In other words, alt meds can sell you magic cures that are nonsense and the FDA can't do a blasted thing about most of it. Where as Pharmaceuticals have to do YEARS of testing to prove their claims.
Once again you miss out on what a SKEPTIC is HR...your beleifs are classic woo.

Are you gonna give me a peer reviewed journal that shows that a 30 million X dilution works? please.

Crystals and sugar pills are pseudoscience...See the NAME of this forum. Stop PUSHING psuedoscience here.
Edit: Your callous response also has nothing to do with the point she made. Research into nutrition and health is real science..and being critical of the current system does not automatically make one teh expert. I have my own criticisms, which you constantly dismiss..BTW..I have said this again and again..I have found much poorer science done in the academic industry than in private industry..But what the hell do I know, working at NIH doesn't count with you right?

[HamdenRice]

7. "you are the classic Big Pharma is teh evul type "

I post a quote from your post to show you where I stopped reading. Yes, I did not even read the rest of your post. That's because you have a terrible habit of responding to something in your mind, rather than responding to other DUers, and this is a typical example.

I am not "the classic Big Pharma is teh evul type" -- whatever that means. Hence, the premise of your entire post is faulty, and I feel no need to continue reading.

Do you realize that many, many DUers see you this way?

If you can grasp this concept, then perhaps, in order to have more fruitful interactions with other DUers, you might want to try responding to what is posted, rather than to what is in your head.

Regards, and good luck!

[cosmik debris]

8. "Do you realize that many, many DUers see you this way? "

:rofl:

That's hilarious that YOU should ask that!

:rofl:

[TZ]

9. HAAHAHAHAHAHA!

I have plenty of fruitful interactions with DU'ers thank you very much.
What I don't have is plenty of fruitful interactions with irrational illogical nasty tempered woos..who go with believe first and check facts NEVER.....:rofl:

On edit: I even have a wall full of pictures of DU'ers from the various meetups I've gone to since the beginning of this year..But I guess having a lot of IRL DU friends doesn't count as "fruitful" interactions...

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Random_Australian]

13. That's nothing. The entire of DU is a figment of my imagination.

I use this reality-creation technique, you see, so I made DU and you are all my puppets.

Then I created reality again and built it so that no-one else could make their own reality.

And your bones are radioactive. (That bit, at least, is true)

[madinmaryland]

15. Thanks, Snyder. I'm not fruity! Fuckin' pev, how'd you get my pic???

:grr:

[TZ]

19. Gotta stop posting

while under the influence, madinmaryland...That webcam is really helpful for catching people posting nekkid....:rofl:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[realisticphish]

11. the better to annoy you, my dear

;)

[dropkickpa]

21. I never read anything other people post!

[Random_Australian]

14. That's stupid. I can make the exact same argument about your post. Watch.

1) We know the OP dislikes the alt-meds for reasons that started with seeing first-hand the effects of medical fraud.

2) You infer that each argument she presents is then, in fact, the same as that.

3) Which is infering something about the whole based on a part.

4) This is stupid. You know damn well that even if you were to make the same argument against someone else, you'd choose your language differently. (Assuming you didn't want to piss them off too)

5) Addendum: Please don't put "alternative medicine" in the same basket with research into proper nutrition. That's not what we refer to and you damn well know it. It is not contrary to "western" medicine that fast food is unhealthy and it is more than a bit silly to imply that it is.

[CanSocDem]

16. Huh...????

"It is not contrary to "western" medicine that fast food is unhealthy and it is more than a bit silly to imply that it is."

Let's see.....'It is more than a bit silly to imply......?????....that fast food is unhealthy'???
That 'something' is contrary to "western medicine"......

Obviously, with your legion of head-bobbing fans, clarity isn't really required is it...??? Here's an idea; why don't you list your beliefs in point form so we know all the little things that make up your belief system.

.

[cosmik debris]

17. Or maybe you could just learn to read

Would that be asking too much?

In your insatiable desire to piss off people, you didn't even bother to read the post to which you responded.

Or perhaps your misrepresentation of the post is just your way of twisting the facts completely out of proportion to make your absurd argument.

Perhaps if you diagram the sentence you will see how absurd your comment is.

And by all means tell us whether you failure to understand English is accidental or intentional.

[TZ]

18. ummm

Its pretty evident what his beliefs are...Or have not you read ANY of his posts.
Of course since he's obviously the smartest person here (I have no problem admitting R_A is waaay smarter than me, and I have to work hard to follow his points sometimes) lack of comphrension might be a problem for you.

And I see you are being sooo polite again with at least one deleted message...You and HR...

Woos of a feather flock together.

[dropkickpa]

22. I believe that there are seriously underrated people in the world

See?



edited to add - the Hoff fucks up my spelling mojo

[Random_Australian]

23. Time for a quick quiz!

When someone says "It is not contrary to 'western' medicine that fast food is unhealthy"

Does this imply:

A) It is contrary to western medicine that fast food is unhealthy

OR

B) It is not contrary to western medicine that fast food is unhealthy.

It seems more than a bit odd that you managed to get that wrong.

(And also that you complained I was being unclear - "Obviously, with your legion of head-bobbing fans, clarity isn't really required is it...???" is pretty funny)

But really, what the hell world do you think you live in that the medical communities ideas about nutrition aren't obvious?

A world where someone says "my crystals tell me that about 90mg per day of ascorbic acid is sufficient" or maybe "since like cures like, citrus fruits have lots of vitamin C"

What part of "high sodium uptake over an extended period forces the kidneys to work harder, increasing the difficulty of pumping blood through. In turn, this leads to high blood pressure" was discovered by woos and which part by scientists? Have a guess. No, really.

[varkam]

24. Woos?

I'm going with woos. Final answer.

:crazy:

[Random_Australian]

25. You are absolutely right! Also, Dr Hovind discovered that cholesterol increases the risk of heart

disease. He was aligning some chakras and it just leaped out at him. Literally - so he performed an emergency exorcism and then tamed it with some ultrasonic crystals, and so brought it forth into the world with the power of his mind.

[mr blur]

26. And he did all this in prison? Cool. (nt)

[kimmerspixelated]

27. I agree with ya, somewhat.

Crystals and spiritual measures aren't going to cure anyone. It's a mistake to put ALL your hopes in that, or anything else that doesn't put nutrients back in the body!

But the Naturalopaths of the 80's knew far less than what they know today. Since most illnesses are the result of a deficiency of some kind, a complete bloodwork noting his weaknesses should have been drawn up. He should have immediately been given extreme nutritional therapy based on his deficiencies. They are finding out most cancer victims are deficient in Vit D. Yes, there is a lot to the Vit. C and tumeric studies. I find it so hypocritical of MSM to declare that Vit C is THE cure for scurvy-but by God, that's where it all ends. They can't have anything else so natural (and let's face it-cheap and not patentable) be the hero of any other disease!

Sure, there IS snake oil out there! But, to say that there are no natural cures whatsoever-is like saying there's nothing good on tv or the internet. There's plenty of shit-hell, yes, but then you have the Discovery channel, and the Science channel-and PBS! ETC.!!

SKEPTICS should look at all the data. That's what I do. If I find someone making a claim- I look it up and find several sources to verify it. It's funny, when the green tea charm was so new- no one seemed to question it at all. Why? Because it was in the Mainstream News - in every glossy magazine you could find.

Folks are tired of not having alternatives, and they will find answers.Just like everyone is tired of the government. And guess what? As a result, there is a huge grassroots movement going on! There is a huge market for Alt. Meds, and it is NOT all snake oil, and it is not going away!

As a note: A relative was on so many meds she had trouble just getting through the day. The instant she fired her doctor, she felt a lot better!

[varkam]

28. How long have you been under that bridge? eom

[TZ]

29. Umm

Vitamin D only does so much..it is NOT a cancer cure/treatment...In fact too much Vitamin D is TOXIC.

Skeptics tend to actually read and like peer reviewed data in scientific journals..Most of the naturopathic stuff has little scientific evidence.

The causes for cancer are quite complex but scientifically there are a lot of discoveries being made..Including using ones one immune system to fight the cancer (cancer vaccines).

Tell me--how much of the naturopathic stuff has to go through 10 YEARS of clinical trials on populations of people both healthy and ill to prove their worth.
None of them do..again SKEPTICS are evidence based..for most of the naturopathic stuff there is little to no SCIENTIFIC evidence to support anything outside of a placebo effect.

Most of the skeptical knoweledge in this group is from study and professional knowledge and reading of scientific materials..If anyone gets their knowledge from MSM, they would be pretty ignorant considering how wrong the media always gets it.

There is a very good reason why this group is separate from the alternative healing group. We don't think sugar pills do anything.

Answer this: There is as MUCH MONEY in the alternative therapies market as there is in traditional meds..So why is it ONLY traditional meds are corrupted by money..hmmm? At least pharmas are regulated, something no liberal should object to. There is NO regulation of alternative treatments

[kimmerspixelated]

30. You're right!

Sugar pills don't do anything!

Look, you believe in what you want. Just don't step on those that don't share your views. Simple!

[dropkickpa]

31. Looking at data is important