Hey SKINNER: CNN - Alien special coming up this week - all week

[fadedrose]

Miles O'Brien, a believer (among others including John Podesta who has written letters to the govt. asking for info regarding ufos), will be on CNN's morning program Mon-Fri next week talking about Aliens - not of this earth type.

Would it be okay to discuss this program in this forum?

[fadedrose]

1. This group is so hard to find

I had to go to Science to find a link to this group. Science does not accept UFO posts. Oh well.

If anyone is interested (besides me, that is), here's a schedule of what Miles O'Brien of CNN will be showing us next week:

"• MONDAY: NOT JUST CRAZIES

What do Moonwalker Edgar Mitchell, Actor Dan Aykroyd, Fmr. White House Chief of Staff John Podesta and CNN Correspondent Miles O'Brien have in common? They have all seen UFO's, believe in them or both.

• TUESDAY: ROSWELL REVISTED

61 years since the famous UFO incident and the place is still peddling the alien trade. We'll take you to the site where the UFO landed and let you decide.

• WEDNESDAY: CLOSE ENCOUNTERS

Abductions: are they a reality or a product of vivid imaginations. We'll talk with someone who says they've been for a ride with ET. Could this really be true?

• THURSDAY: CALL 1-800-ALIEN... PLEASE!

Listening to the heavens for a radio signal to prove there is intelligent life beyond Earth. What can be heard and could we make contact?

• FRIDAY: THE MARS WORM

Did the NASA Opportunity Rover snap a picture of a fossilized worm? If so, what does life on Mars mean for the theory that we're not alone?

[onager]

2. I'm not Skinner, but...why does this belong in the Skeptics group?

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but in this group UFO posts generally don't seem to be any more welcome than they are in Science. IMO, they're usually on the same level as all the other woo-woo claptrap about homeopathy, psychic powers, Nostradumbassery and My Incredible Ghost Experience.

There are plenty of other places on DU where the True Believers can gather and impress each other. This group is hard to find for a good reason.

If you read a few threads, you'll see that the denizens of this group mostly COMPLAIN about TV shows covering UFOs.

And no wonder:

We'll take you to the site where the UFO landed and let you decide.

Huh? They already made a definitive statement -- "where the UFO landed." So I don't have much to decide, do I?

[realisticphish]

5. probably just because we have "Pseudoscience" in the name

which we really aught to change, because it is slightly misleading, imho

[fadedrose]

8. Friend, I don't know where I would post this

It's about a tv program that will be on for a week, every morning on a NEWS station.

That's why I asked Skinner.

I am not a believer, nor am I a nonbeliever.

I am undecided, just like the morons who didn't know who they were voting for after 2 years of campaigning...

You're right. This is the wrong place for skeptics, but where do you suggest I post it???

Serious replies greatly appreciated....

[realisticphish]

9. honestly, probably the lounge

though you never know where mods will shunt threads. Sometimes I don't get their reasoning :shrug:

[fadedrose]

10. Thanks, might try it

Haven't posted at the lounge, but it's a wild kind of place from the posts I've seen.

Oh, not to beat a dead or perhaps maimed horse, but the CNN program is being hosted by Miles O'Brien. He's the one who handles ALL of the space news, rockets, launchings, out of space photos, etc., so I'd give it more credence than the stuff you might see even on the history channel (has tons of ufo stuff, never watch, it's all old).

[realisticphish]

12. granted

but the synopses already have a lot of alarm bells. For one thing, focusing a whole episode on famous people who have seen UFO's. Eyewitnesses are totally irrelevant. There's no such thing as a reliable witness for vague occurrences like UFO sightings.

It just seems to take a very sideways direction. "Are UFO's Real? You Decide (But yes, we're saying they are)"

[fadedrose]

13. The Vatican about a month ago or so said...

it's okay for Catholics to believe in UFOs and aliens.

Figure that...

I am not Catholic.

You figure the outrageous things that religion forces people to believe and ufos seem actually more believable.

My mind is open. At 70, my curiosity began when in 1950-1951 or so we had headlines in the newspaper when I was just learning to read. They said there were ufos over the White House, landing in NM, pilots disappearing, etc.,,, and then all of a sudden, everything was explained.

Maybe there are no aliens in outer space, but there are liars in government. If you don't believe that, you don't have enough skepticism.

[realisticphish]

14. here's the thing

skepticism has nothing to do with believing what someone says. It isn't cynicism, it isn't denialism. It's simply requiring evidence for extraordinary claims. I have never seen a convincing piece of evidence to lead me to believe in alien UFO's. Weird shit? Perhaps, but nature can be pretty damned weird.

The other problem is that so many people say, "ah, how CONVENIENT, the government explained it all! They said it was a weather balloon, so it must really be a UFO."

well, couldn't it have, you know, been a weather balloon? Yeah, the government lies, but assuming that every word they say is a lie is pretty ridiculous as well. People just WANT to believe, and therefore take what they want away from it. I would LOVE to see an alien spacecraft. I would love for Bigfoot, or ghosts, or Nessie to be real. If someone shows me astounding evidence for one of those, I can be convinced. But none of those things have ever had serious scientific evidence shown to the world

[cosmik debris]

3. If you wish to discuss the PSEUDOSCIENCE of UFO theories,

this might be a good place. But if you are going to pretend that UFOs are real aliens (LOL!) you are in the wrong place.

[JuniperLea]

15. The British gov is discussing...

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2008/11/24/obrien.aliens.not.just.crazy.cnn

[cosmik debris]

16. Is that supposed to change my mind?

People see things every day that they don't understand.

That does not equate to aliens and space ships.

Without some reasonable, testable evidence, I think UFO stories are simple mistakes or delusions.

[JuniperLea]

17. Not trying to change your mind at all...

I'm just saying, a lot of people who are a lot more knowledgeable than either one of us thinks there's something to it. I think MOST UFO stories are simple mistakes. I wouldn't go as far as delusions. We really don't know, so no one can really say one way or the other. We can have any opinion we choose, but we cannot say "yes there are" or "no, there are not" based on what we know.

[cosmik debris]

18. We certainly can say

That there is no testable evidence. Therefore there is no reason to believe that UFO stories are true. Regardless of who tells them.

And apart from that, there is the probability calculation. No matter how you figure it, the probability of aliens visiting our planet in our lifetime is incredibly low.

It is my conclusion that belief in UFOs and aliens is irrational for those two major reasons. So people who wish to believe in UFOs can do so and I can believe that they are irrational.

Good luck.

[JuniperLea]

20. That's your opinion

My opinion is that you are wrong. Your math is flawed. And your insults toward those who think differently are very telling.

Thanks

[cosmik debris]

21. So correct my math

The Earth is 4.5 billion years old. The odds of aliens visiting in any single year of that 4.5 billion years would be 1 in 4.5 billion. Pretty long odds.

Face it, the odds are strongly against you.

You don't have probability on your side.

You don't have testable evidence on your side.

All you have is stories. That's all.

And there is no way to test those stories to see if they are true or made up.

You can believe in unicorns and leprechauns and space aliens if you want to. But it is just plain nuts to pretend that there is any valid reason to believe in those things.

[JuniperLea]

22. How old is the universe? The world?

Please... your insults are pretty disgusting, especially since you can't prove a negative.

[cosmik debris]

23. I'm not trying to prove anything except probability

And the age of the universe is not a question here.

But just to make the problem tougher, how many planets are there?

What is the probability that aliens would visit this one out of all the possible planets they could visit?

Not a very high probability--one in several billion perhaps.

And when you factor that in with the temporal improbability, it makes it absurdly unlikely that aliens would be seen within a thousand light years of our home.

Did you notice the name of this group? This is not a group for superstitious fools who believe in improbable things for which there is no testable evidence.

It is not a group for idiots who accept fantastic stories as if they were facts. If you are one of those, you are in the wrong place.

Please... your ignorance is pretty disgusting, especially since you have nothing but fantasy to support your position. Go back to your Harry Potter books, they are more your speed.

[JuniperLea]

24. LOL!

You are basing your assumptions on what we know now. We don't know much at all. But you think you do... how interesting.

Everything about your self-righteousness is more than pretty disgusting. If this conversation doesn't belong in this group, then shame on you for keeping it going.

Your minuscule thoughts are absurdly unlikely to have any meaning at all given how little we as this planet's inhabitants know.

[cosmik debris]

25. You are in the wrong place.

You belong in the Harry Potter Group.

[JuniperLea]

26. I'll tell that to my Mensa group

They will find it quite amusing. In fact, I'm going to copy this whole thread to a few choice people in advance so we don't waste any time.

Closed minds are fascinating... especially when they belong to someone so arrogant.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

28. And you would walk away from the conversation

If you weren't a condescending, rude, vulgar, and very stupid asshole. But no.

[cosmik debris]

29. My position here is warranted

Yours is not.

You belong in the Harry Potter group and you don't even have sense enough to know it.

This is not the group for superstition and fantasy.

Your only purpose in continuing this is to disrupt this group.

Does that make you proud? To be a troll?

[JuniperLea]

32. does it make you proud to be an ass?

[cosmik debris]

33. I'm proud that I'm not a troll

You can't truthfully say that. You are a troll and apparently proud of it.

[dawgmom]

58. Claiming membership in Mensa...

Isn't that a jump-the-shark moment in internet debate -- similar to the desperation of a Nazi/Hitler comparison? As in "I got nuthin'; better tell them I'm in Mensa..."

I don't know what your deleted comment was, but I'm thinking it may have been something similar....:)

[cosmik debris]

59. I don't think she was claiming to be a MEMBER

But rather that she busses tables at the Mensa Meeting.

[mr blur]

38. Actually, cosmik debris is none of those things -

as you would know if you hadn't just dropped in to dump some of your Woo garbage. I'd quit while you still have a little dignity left.

[onager]

41. Choice people like these?

As PZ Myers notes--two of the speakers at this Mensa hoedown were pushing Intelligent Design and...of course! UFOs!

Pharyngula: My morning at Mensa

Oh, and as he also mentions: ...there is a lot of credulous woo at Mensa...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/my_morning_at_mensa.php

Thanks for the laugh, though. You name-drop Mensa in your Subject, then accuse someone else of being "arrogant?"

:rofl:

[mr blur]

45. Yeah but they're SMART Woos -

so that makes it OK.

[salvorhardin]

35. cosmik isn't saying that the odds of intelligent life existing elsewhere are unbelievably low

What he's saying is that the odds of intelligent life, possessing suitable technology to cross interstellar distances, somehow deciding to visit our planet out of all the multitude of Earth-like worlds, and existing sometime within the time span that Earth has also existed are unbelievably small. Not impossible. Just unbelievably small. So unless someone comes up with better evidence than we have so far that suggests such creatures actually are visiting Earth, then we have little reason to believe they are.

[fadedrose]

36. You should be spokesman for this group

You know how to express yourself without an air of superiority.

I understand what you're saying and respectfully accept your reasoning.

But I still think there's a phenomenon that allows and invites belief in at least a slim possibility that life exists outside of earth.

[TZ]

39. FWIW

I do believe in extraterrestrial life...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if one of these Mars exploratory programs turns up simple life on Mars --since we now know there is water, finding microbial life isn't out of the question.

However, I do think Carl Sagan was right in his analysis that the odds are vanishing small of intelligent life visiting us here.
UFO's are just that..unexplained phenomena. And to say it MUST be aliens because we can't explain it, is also, in my book the height of arrogance.

I'm sure there is intelligent life out there. I just don't think they are visiting this planet kidnapping cows or whatever, at least until I see some REAL evidence. And there is very little of that right now.

[WoodrowFan]

46. I saw a UFO once

I saw a UFO in the mid to late 1970s. It looked a LITTLE bit like the shuttle, was white, and flew without making a noise. Of course I didn't assume "A-HAH! it's an alien," mostly because I lived under the flightpath to Wright-Patterson AFB at the time*. Later I learned about acoustic shadows, which might explain the silence.....


* and I grew up seeing all kind of contrails, some of which lasted for hours, which is why I think the chem-trail "argument" that "I never saw contrails like that in the sky when I was a kid, so they must be new" is so amazingly stupid.

[greyl]

51. For you, is there a difference between believing and thinking it likely? nt

[TZ]

53. good question

I think that for many UFO/alien visits are a matter of faith..that they truly believe it, and therefore the standards of proof don't need to be all that great for them..For me..I have a hard time taking anything on faith..I really do need actually hard data before I feel free to form an opinion. So I guess the short answer is no there is no difference between believing and thinking it likely for me. I think this is why I dislike conspiracy theories so much, I just CANNOT find myself believing things that seem unlikely without hard data.

[conscious evolution]

55. Half time at the Super Bowl.

When they land at the fifty yard line during the Super Bowl then I will believe they are visiting us.Until then,well,lets say I am in the skeptics corner on UFO's.

[fadedrose]

30. Oh well . . .

""You don't have testable evidence on your side.""

There are people who have been fired from jobs, in jail, on death row and who have been executed based solely on EYE WITNESS accounts. You should be demanding that the jails be opened and these poor people convicted without TESTABLE evidence be freed. How very hypocritical of all of you. You are selective about the veracity of some eye witnesses, but lack the objectivity that science requires.

""You can believe in unicorns and leprechauns and space aliens if you want to. But it is just plain nuts to pretend that there is any valid reason to believe in those things.""

Unicorn and leprechaun sitings are rare in this country, as opposed to UFO sightings. I think they're common only in Ireland and are seen after maybe one drink too many by the observer. UFO means "unidentified flying object." The phenomenon needs serious thought and investigation, not jeering by the flat earth society gathering in this group.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fadedrose]

34. Two corrections

I typed "sitings" when it should have said "sightings."

You are correct. I should not have used the word, "solely," because maybe more is needed to execute someone.

There have been many people released from many years in prison after being exonerated by DNA testing of evidence. And many eye witnesses have been murdered to prevent their testimony.

I don't know if the already executed have had their DNA tested in an effort to clear them, so MAYBE they have been executed based on eye witness accounts. Texas has quite a few executions, so I guess Texans' eyes are more trustworthy than the rest of the country's, and maybe only sightings of UFO's in Texas are the only ones you can trust.

You win. I just can't be logical enough to argue with you.

[WoodrowFan]

47. the only quibble

the only quibble I have with that argument is that long odds do not prove something isn't true, only that it is unlikely. I heard a skeptic use that point against some conspiracy woos who claimed that there were no coincidences. He pointed out that his next door neighbor had a particular license plate on his car and his state had issued well over 10 million different pl8ts. What, he asked, were the odds him living next to a car with his neighbor's pl8ts? One in several million. yet it happened.*

For the record I am agnostic on alien UFOs. I have seen no proof to support their existence, however, and think that more "earthly" explanations (such as weather balloons) are the likely explanation.



* this assumes several things, such as plates being issued with specific combinations for specific areas, such as all pl8ts in county X starting with a specific letter or number combination. This would, of course, affect the odds of a specific pl8te being issue din a specific area.

[cosmik debris]

49. Your example was resolved by evidence.

My point was that if there is no evidence, you have to rely on probability. If you have no evidence, and probability goes against you, you have nothing to rely on.

I was not trying to prove that something is not true. I was trying to show that there is no reason to believe that something is true. No reason at all.

[WoodrowFan]

56. OK, fair enough. (NT)

[fadedrose]

60. Just for you...

In Denver there will be an initiative about releasing alien info and creating a commission, but that's not really what I want to show you.

Go to:

http://www.extracampaign.org/Home_Page.html

Click on "News and Humor"

Then click on: "Lifted" by Pixar

Then tell me that aliens aren't real....

luv

[cosmik debris]

61. Yawn.

You are a disruptor. You don't belong here.

[realisticphish]

4. as others have said

if you want to discuss the pseudoscience of UFO CTers, ok, but we're going to be "hostile" in the law use of the word.

[Orrex]

6. Not "Hostel" in the carve-you-up and cut-your-eyes-out use of the word, though

I hated that movie.

[realisticphish]

7. i don't know, we'll see where it goes

I never saw it. Never will, ditto with the Saw movies

[fadedrose]

11. I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. ;) nt

[onager]

19. I liked "Severance"

Are there bears in these woods?

Depends. If we are still in Hungary, there are no bears. But if we're in Romania, there could be bears.

Do bears have passports? Are bears required to stop at national borders?

:rofl:


Completely OTT stuff. I liked the fact that there was no supernatural, M. Night Charlatan bugga-bugga going on. Just seriously twisted homo sapiens.

[Orrex]

37. She was really hot in 'See No Evil, Hear No Evil'

Though it wasn't the best Wilder/Prior team-up.


Haven't seen the film you're talking about, though--is it worh a look?

[onager]

40. Oh, you meant JOAN Severance!

Took me a minute to get that reference. Duh...

I meant the British horror movie "Severance" from 2006. With Toby Stephens, Claudia Bakley and Tim McInnerny of "Blackadder" fame.

Quick plot description without *SPOILERS*: Corporate geeks, working for a multinational weapons corporation, are sent on a "Team Building Exercise" in Eastern Europe. Their take a wrong turn looking for the "luxury forest retreat" and end up in a former asylum for homicidal military maniacs. That of course, turns out to be not so former.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0464196/

[onager]

42. I had a post deleted...

And didn't even call anybody an "asshole" in it! Like some posts I could mention in this thread.

Boy, there must be some very thin-skinned people around here.

[cosmik debris]

43. I thought I was the only one with deleted posts here

But I am certainly not the only asshole. :)

[Orrex]

44. You're both assholes

Does that make you feel better?

:grouphug:

[onager]

48. I'll tell that to my Densa group!

:P

[greyl]

50. Deleted posts do not necessarily indicate thin-skinned people alerting. nt

[Orrex]

52. I've had posts deleted because they were so damned funny that they posed a threat to public heath

And one of them was a salted


Peanut.

[TZ]

54. .

They posed a threat to public health because they referred to anatomy so big it can be seen from Google earth....Save us from the giant.......:evilgrin:

[WoodrowFan]

57. HA!

I've actually had Skinner email me and tell me not to post what I was THINKING of posting because it was too rude and funny!