Why the fear of medicine?

[Heddi]

Whether through your religion or cult, or through deep ignorance regarding medicine, there is this underlying fear of medical treatment...not just on this board, but in real life as well.

As a nurse, I have *SO* many patients that just will. not. take. life-saving medication because of these half-baked notions that are not based in reality, or scientific fact, or logic. Hell, the medicine doesn't even have to be life-saving, it could be life-improving, or symptom-relieving.

I get it a lot with pain medicine. I swear, people think that they will become Oxycondin addicts if they take Oxy for post-surgical pain. Because of hospital cut-backs and funding and lack of staffing and lack of beds and sicker patients and increasing patient loads, I hardly have the time to spend doing basic health education for my patients, much less a 20+ minute discussion on why Oxy is best for post-surgical pain, and that the pain meds will not be needed permanently, and that we're using other pain control methods in addition to narcotics, that they won't be addicts, that they won't be thrown in jail, etc, for taking 10mg of Oxycontin for their 10 out of 10 pain.

I have found that the people who seem so afraid of medical treatments, and medicine, and pills, and doctors, and hospitals seem to have this fear that using medical treatments is showing a sign of weakness...like, if I were a better person I wouldn't need to use medicine to control my problem, or to solve my problem, or to cure my problem. It is like it's the far-reaching result of feelings of inadequacy.

I had a guy the other night that was in a MVC (motor vehicle crash) and had massive internal bleeding. His abdomen had to be opened and cleaned out because his bowel got perforated and stool spilled into his abd cavity. He had a scar from his sternum to his pubic hair, and because of the build up of fluid part of the wound had to stay open to relieve pressure, and that open part of the wound had to have thrice-daily sterile wound care where we were removing old packing and inserting new packing.

He had other injuries as well, and it was very easy for me to tell that he was in excrutiating pain. Not only did he tell me he was in the worst pain of his life, but his BP was through the roof, heart rate was through the roof, he was sweaty and clammy.

And yet he continued to refuse all medications related to pain control. Not morphine, not dilaudid, not oxy, not vicodin, not percocet, not tylenol, not ibuprofin. NOTHING.

I can't understand it, and of course, I can't force him to take pain medications.

However, I tried my best to educate him that pain was not allowing him to increase his mobility like he needed to...he'd been in the hospital for 3 weeks and hadn't gotten out of bed except for 2 times which sent the pain through the ROOF and nearly made him pass out.

So now he's developing pneumonia because he can't sit up because it's too painful, can't cough and deep breathe because it's too painful, can't roll off his back (and therefore is at very high risk for developing pressure ulcers) because of the pain.

Because he's not moving around, getting up, getting those muscles working and the blood flowing, he's at a very high risk for blood clots in his legs that can be quite fatal. The pneumonia is being treated with antibiotics, but if he's not up and moving around it will just come back.

But he doesn't want pain meds because they're "dangerous" (his words), yet the "dangerous" things that are happening to him are a direct result of his refusal to take medications that are not 1/1000'th as dangerous as the pneumonia and blood clots and pressure ulcers he's in the process of developing.

---

The John Travolta story is something I've stayed away from. I know that Scientologists (as well as many other religions) feel that mental illness is a sign of spiritual weakness. I know that they do not believe in psychotropic medications because of their supposed numbing effect on the soul.

However, it sounds like Travolta's kid was at least, for a time, on an anti-seizure medication. Whether that was stopped abruptly (big no-no) or not is not known. Whether he was on other medications prior or after is not known.

I will not venture further into the discussion of that dead child any more than to say that not only is the individual apprehension towards medicine disturbing, but the systemic religion-based apprehension towards medication and treatment is even more disturbing to me.

---

Illness, especially chronic and / or terminal illness, is tremendously hard on a family and the person who is ill, especially so if the person who is ill is a child.

But to further add to the pain by suggesting, or stating outright, that illness (esp. mental illness and all of the shades of gray that term seems to cover) is a disorder of the soul, or of the belief system, is beyond cruel. It suggests that a better person would not have that illness, that someone who prayed more or better would not be ill. That someone whose soul was more pure would not be ill.

Of course, there is no quantifying that suggestion. How does one pray "better", and is there a definite outcome of "better prayer" vs. "mediocre prayer" vs. No prayer at all?

And that's what gets me about these tens of billions of discussions on this board about living better through mental/soul/religious manipulation.

Since there is no quantifying what a basic prayer is, and therefore no way to quantify what a better prayer is, there is no way to definitely say that people who are not ill are praying better, or meditating better, or mentating better, since there is no way to quantify the actions to begin with, and no way to gauge their outcome.

Does that make sense?

With medications and therapies, we can say that people who exercise X minutes a day (measurable) for X days a week (measurable) have -X risk of disease (quantifiable).

But you cannot measure prayer, or thoughts, or goodness of soul. Because you cannot measure it, you cannot say that doing more of an unmeasurable act is better, and doing less is worse.

And anyone who says "Well, I prayed for my cancer to go away and it did, so prayer works" is just...I don't know. Maybe prayer did work for them, but to equate "my prayer worked, so I am better. You prayed and are racked with cancer so 1) you did not pray right 2) your prayers were wrong 3) you prayed to teh wrong god so you are deserving of cancer" is asinine.

That you would not be sick if your soul weren't sick. And since you are sick, then you have a sick soul and your sickness is up to you and you are to blame for it and any worsening of your sickness or injury.

That just doesn't jive with me at all, and it's depressing that so many people really believe this to be true

[mr blur]

1. I just don't know. I take whatever pain relief I can get,

for the MS. I see no dignity, courage or even common sense in suffering unnecessary pain. But then I don't beleve in fairies. Or Jebus.

Sorry Heddi, my reply isn't really the response that your thoughful post merits. I plead tiredness and the fact that it's very early in the morning and I had to get out of bed because of the pain in my legs. I'll be more awake when the paid med kicks in!

[Heddi]

3. I appreciate your reply

While I have never encountered pain that is anywhere near what you deal with on a daily basis, several years ago I developed debilitating back pain.

I was about 25 at the time and I went to my MD who told me in no uncertain terms that I was too young for back pain and that I was most likely seeking drugs. He sent me to physical therapy for an hour a day, three days a week, and when I asked him about the ongoing pain, he said "take Advil, as much as you need, that will make the pain go away"

Well, as it was, I was unable to walk for any extended period of time without having to rest for 45 minutes because of the pain. Sitting was unbearable, sleeping was a faint memory, and sex was...well, nothing sexier than always missionary with your leg under 23 pillows....

Once I went to PT I found that the pain was exascerbated to a degree I cannot even describe. I was in tears throughout the whole thing, and I asked the therapist, after about a month, why the pain was getting worse and not better, and she said "Well, some thing just don't get better, HONEY" and was really rude about it.

It was to the point where I could no longer go to PT during lunch because I was in so much pain, so I went after work just so I could go home and cry in private instead of in the break room at work.

I dealt with this for 9 months. I was eating Advil like candy, and finally I could take no more. My leg was inflammed like there was a red hot poker running from the middle of my butt cheek all the way to my ankle.

I made an appt with my MD, who thankfully was out of town at the time, so I saw his partner. THe partner did a basic reflex test on my legs and the sciatic nerve, that runs from your spine down each leg, was so inflammed that I had no reflex in my achilles tendon. He asked me if I had ever had an MRI or a back Xray (I had not). He asked me what I was taking for pain, and I told him I was up to 30 Advil a day----thankfully my liver isn't permanently damaged from the medication.

That day I got an MRI which showed a massively herniated disc. I was given pain meds for the first time in over a year (I had dealt with the pain for several months before seeing the MD), and I had an appointment with a neuro surgeon within 2 weeks.

Pain Meds! Oh god. I could finally somewhat function. Of course, I couldn't take them at work because they made me a zombie, but I could sleep on them. I could take Tylenol and Codeine and walk through the grocery store without stopping halfway through. I was able to function, somewhat.

Within a month or two of seeing the stand-in doctor, I had seen the neuro surgeon who told me that aside from surgery, the only option for pain control were epidural injections, which were not permanent. I got an epidural that day, and had surgery 2 weeks later.

THat was in 2002, and I am pain free to this day. Heck, I was pain free when I woke up from my surgery and have been since.

---
To deny people adequate pain control is unethical, in my opinion. Drug seeking or not, if someone is in pain, they need pain releif.

My mother is addicted to prescription pain medications, and her story is long and complicated but her addiction stems from lack of adequate medical care adn treatment because of our being below the poverty level and lacking insurance.

She does have chronic pain, though, and had her initial injury been treated correctly 20 years ago, she would not be the addict that she is today. But she is, and still without insurance, so still able to only use pharmaceutical measures to treat a problem that could be adequately corrected with physical therapy and other pain control methods.

As an RN, I treat drug addicts all the time, every night, and they can still have pain, believe it or not! Thankfully the RN's I work with know this, and we treat pain even though they may be addicted to the medications we are giving them, but hell...i'm not a detox nurse and detoxing someone is not my job, at least not in this capacity. If someone says they are in pain, I treat them. If someone says they are constipated, I treat them. There is no difference between the two, in my opinion, as far as validity goes.

---
When I was in college, I was telling someone about the horrible conditions I grew up in, being poor, etc. They made the comment that those conditions made me a stronger person.

I appreciated what they were saying, but I countered that there is no Badge Of Honour given to you when you're eating shit for food and have no running water in your house. Being poor is not something to be congratulated for. It is not, in itself, a character building exercise. I promise you that I would have much rather have had regular water and electricity than any "making yourself a stronger, better person" bullshit.

Same with pain, or any chronic condition. I'm sure that some people find solace in the fact that they can get through tough times and tough situations, but there is no dignity in writhing in chronic, debilitating pain, and dealing with how the pain not only affects your physical wellbeing, but your mental wellbeing as well. I saw how the insufferable pain I was feeling sometimes lead me to be a real asshole to those around me because I was so miserable.

Chronic conditions aren't just physical, and not just shared by the person afflicted with them. They affect your mood, your mind, your body, and your life, and the life of those around you.

I hope you have found adequate pain relief for your MS. Neurological pain seems to be the toughest to handle sometimes. It's rather easy to decrease an inflamed muscle---not so easy to decrease the inflammation of every nerve in your body

:hugs:

[Warpy]

7. I've had to remind fellow nurses and docs alike

of why a patient was in the hospital. I was rarely working detox, so it was generally for something else.

Chronic pain patients (and I'm one of 'em) are a challenge to treat for acute pain because their tolerance for opiates is so high. Usually we can manage it, although we nearly have CVAs as we give them what would be a lethal dose for someone not on chronic meds.

Not treating pain for any reason is unethical, IMO. I think medicine in general is finally starting to realize this. Unfortunately, so is the DEA, and I've read several articles recently by drug warriors shrieking about the increased number of prescriptions being written for opiates.

[varkam]

2. In situations like that...

I tend to remind myself of Catcher in the Rye. Maybe it is callous, but I think the truth is that you can't save everyone. Some people are just too fucked up physically for you to do anything about, and the same can be said for mental issues as well. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try, but in the end people make their own decisions. Hell, that sort of autonomy is what the medical field is built on. Even if you explain to the patient that what they are doing (or not doing) is dangerous, it is still up to them - sad as that is, as sometime you just want to force the meds anyway (or at least, I would imagine).

[Heddi]

4. Oh, yeah, I figured that out when I was a nursing student

I can't save every person in the world. I do what I can, and provide as comprehensive and detailed education as I can, but in the end it is up to the patient to make that decision (given that they have the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves).

Autonomy is a wonderful thing, and I find that the people in medicine that have the toughest time with their jobs are the ones who think they HAVE to carry the weight/guilt of every patient's decision on their shoulders.

Fuck that. If you don't want this medication that will bring your blood pressure down from 255/180, there's nothing I can do for you. If you choose to not take these medications, despite being educated about the ridiculous risk of stroke and internal bleeding, that's your choice, and I've done my job if a patient can make a decision after being educated, even if it's a decision I would not make, or a decision I wish they would re-think.

And I do understand medication non-compliance. A few years ago I got a needlestick from an HIV+ patient, and I was on anti-retrovirals for a month for prophylaxis. They were the worst medications I've ever taken, and I was out of work for that entire month because they were so horrendous. And it was just one pill twice a day.

I realized that if i had to take this pill, along with 23 other pills, every day, for the rest of my life, I don't know that I could do it. I was constantly nauseated, exhausted even after sleeping for 12 hours, I ached. I had to have weekly labs drawn because these meds can wreck havoc on your kidneys and liver---it was awful.

So I understand why people sometimes don't take medications or therapies, because the side effects can be too much for them to handle.

And there are times that I want to force meds, but I can't and I don't. It's not anything psychotropic or mind altering---usually it's a cardiac med or something like that, where I know the blood pressure will come down, or the heart rate will stabilze, or the fluid build up will decrease....but in the end, it's their decision, and their life.

[trotsky]

5. My own father is like that.

Medication makes you weak. Fighting things off makes you stronger. An American Nietzsche, he is - minus the real heavyweight philosophy. Of course the one thing he DID take medication for was frequent dizzy spells. I suspect he suffered some inner ear damage when he was a child in rural late 1930s/early 1940s Minnesota. So even he had his "be tough" limits.

I unfortunately inherited some of that attitude - I will hold off on taking medication longer than I probably should. But I will take it rather than suffer needlessly.

"It suggests that a better person would not have that illness, that someone who prayed more or better would not be ill."

It does - and that kind of attitude makes me want to puke. From the semi-regular who keeps intruding here to offer his wisdom, to the woos everywhere, THAT'S the dark side of the "you create your own reality" B.S. peddled by the new-agers. The religious nuts who embrace the prayer side of that foul equation are no better, but at least they tend to just dismiss the cases where prayer failed (god just wanted to bring the person home), rather than blaming the victim like the woos do.

[Silent3]

18. My father is the exact opposite, but that's a problem too

My father went overboard with pain meds, and didn't refrain from alcohol when alcohol and his meds weren't supposed to be mixed with alcohol. For my father the least bit of discomfort, or sleeplessness for that matter, is something to be medicated away. Somewhere along the line I think he decided that "comfortably numb" is the proper condition to live in, that not being utterly free from all discomfort, not being suffused with a warm glow, meant that something was wrong that had to be fixed.

He got multiple prescriptions from different doctors who didn't know (or even care, especially when he got older, I think) what other doctors had given him.

Somehow he's managed to live through this abuse to reach the age of 84. He's in an assisted living home now, with his medications finally under someone else's control, but the abuse has taken its toll on his mind. He doesn't have Alzheimer's, but the symptoms caused by his abuse are much the same. My sister told me that a recent examination showed that he's suffering from cerebral atrophy. We'd hoped that when his access to alcohol and drugs was under control he'd get his mind back, but unfortunately he's done permanent damage to himself.

He used to be a very smart man. He earned Master's degrees in both English and math. Now he can't even remember what year it is or where he lives a lot of the time. He understood enough about me having my gall bladder out to give me some fatherly advice -- to make sure I remembered to take my pain meds! :eyes:

[Warpy]

6. My pain lecture was a quickie

and cited the Boston study of 10,800 patients taking narcotics in hospitals. The study found a whopping four new addictions among that patient population.

I then told them they were going to get out of bed and start walking if they didn't want to die from blood clots or pneumonia and that pain medication would make it a little more tolerable. I said if they could do their walking and stretching without medication, they didn't have to take any.

I only had one patient who turned everything down and managed to do his required postop activity. The rest of them caved after the first couple of stretches.

Most people really don't like opiates. They'll take everything they can get for the first day or two, but after the third day they never want to see it again and only take it when they're desperate, and that's the way it should be.

As for all the woo woo stuff, I tolerated all of it. My only rules were that drumming and chanting couldn't disturb other patients and animal blood had to be cleaned up immediately after. I didn't have to believe in any of it. If the patient did, the placebo effect would help him get well.

[Silent3]

8. When it comes to pain meds, are you sure it's always woo?

I just had my gall bladder taken out a few weeks ago, and I didn't take any of my prescribed pain meds after surgery. Why?

For one, I simply wasn't in that much pain.

The last time I had surgery before this, about two years ago, when I had much more pain than with the recent surgery, the pain meds I took were sited as one likely cause for me being constipated for over a week after the surgery. I found it very, very unnerving to have food going in and nothing coming out for that long, and when the constipation finally broke, I think I experienced the closest thing a male is going to experience to the pain of child birth.

Further, while I definitely don't have any problem with taking pain meds for serious pain, when it's only a bit of mild soreness or minor discomfort I'd rather stay clear-headed and (maybe this will sound a touch woo-ish to some) not add drugs to my system that don't seem all that necessary or important to me.

[lizerdbits]

10. I never needed anything other than ibuprofen when I had a tooth extracted

As with your recent experience, it just didn't hurt. They gave me a prescription for vicodin and recommended filling it in case searing pain hit at 2:00am but I never needed it, and only took the ibuprofen for a day. Same thing with a root canal, 24 hrs of ibuprofen and didn't need the vicodin. And if I'm on vicodin I can't exactly drive to work or work with infectious materials, so I agree with you on that- if the pain isn't that bad why use my sick time?

What seems to be in the OP is pain so severe that people can't do the physical activity recommended for recovery.

[Heddi]

14. I understand that, and I respect that

I have a 2-year old Rx for Vicodin that is on the brink of being out of date that I was given for back pain. The Rx is for one pill twice a day, as needed. I've maybe taken one pill every other month...maybe.....

The scenario's I'm talking about are people who ARE in pain. Who are rigid, stiff, who can't move, who won't move, who are in agony, they are sweaty (diaphoretic). Their heart rate is in the 110's, their BP is high. They won't get out of bed, they can't cough because of the pain, they can't eat because of the pain....

In my hospital, anyone who is on any narcotic (or other constipator) for more than 24 hours is automatically given a variety of stool softners and then ultimately laxitives (if no BM from the stool softners) to prevent constipation.

The Tylenol 3 I was given before my back surgery constipated me something ridiculous. I didn't have a BM for 2 weeks. It was the closest thing that *I* (a woman) have come to having a baby ha ha!

The folks I have for patients---geeze! I wish they had a gallblader removed. I have had one guy that's been in the hosp for about a month and a half with a non-operable broken hip, broken leg, has 15 pounds of traction hanging off his leg as well, to keep it straight. Or the guy I was talking about upthread, who has his guts basically open to the world with frequent deep dressing changes (you can see the mesentery, which is the fabric that holds the organs in place). I mean DEEP...into the stomach.

People who are in obvious signs of pain, who ADMIT to being in pain, who cannot move and recouperate because of the pain, but refuse to take pain meds for some unknown reason.

[Silent3]

15. In the emergency room I was quite happy to get some Dilaudid

I ended up in the emergency room twice because of my gall bladder -- the first time when my pain got bad enough (at 3AM, naturally) that I realized I might have something more than a bit of heartburn going on, and the second time early in the morning (again at 3AM) of the day I was scheduled for surgery, my gall bladder apparently deciding I should show up several hours early.

Both times in the ER I was given Dilaudid. Dilaudid is amazing. The pain I had was pretty bad, especially the second visit, and Dilaudid was the first pain medication I've ever had that turned pain off like a light being switched off. Perhaps because I was in worse pain during the second ER visit, I experienced nasty waves of nausea for about 1-2 minutes after I was giving the Dilaudid, but once that passed I was perfectly comfortable when moments before I was practically climbing the walls in pain.

No problems with puritanical or woo-ish self-inflicted suffering here. I know when to say YES to pain meds. :)

[dropkickpa]

34. Having both given birth and had gall bladder attacks

I can say that, for me, giving birth was a hell of a lot more pleasant. Gall bladder attacks hurt a muthafuck lot worse than squeezin Dropkids bowling ball head out, that is for DAMN sure. The pain meds in the ER were GREATLY appreciated. And even though I have some post removal issues, I would have that little fucker removed again in a heartbeat given the choice. Pain sucks.

[Codeine]

9. I try to avoid pain meds

because they upset my stomach. Of course, at this point I've probably convinced myself of this so thoroughly that I'm making myself sick.

[trotsky]

13. ...says the person with the username "Codeine".

:D

[cosmik debris]

11. Another example of the problem with pain meds

30 yrs ago I spent 5 days unconscious in the hospital on Demerol. Every time I woke up I got another jab in the hip. After 5 days of stupor, I refused to roll over until I could see a doctor.

30 minutes later I was in surgery with gangrene in my right testicle.

If I had been slightly more coherent I might have cut that agony down to a day or two. But it was easier for the staff to keep me stoned until the Xmas holidays were over than to respond to the whining of a guy whose right nut was the size of a baseball.

That explains why I hate pain meds, why I insist on "sobering up" after each dose, and why I'm half nuts--really.

[trotsky]

16. Holy shit!

You must not have had enough vitamin D in your diet, idiot.

[Heddi]

27. Duh of course not

He needs to take 190090,9219038,9943 grams of VIt D 4 a day. DUH. haven't you read anything in the woowoo lounge lately? Sheesh

[Nevernose]

12. One of the last real vestiges of Puritanism

One of the last real vestiges of Puritanism we've got. Illness = sin. If you're sick in almost any conceivable way, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Pain meds, being abusable, just make it worse (remember also that we live in a society in which addiction is not a disease but a moral failing). I also think that's why our health care system is so different from Europe's; we have, as a society, some kind of deep-seated Puritanical guilt and fear of being sick.

Conceited, aren't we?

[trotsky]

17. That's a damn fine point.

Hadn't thought of that, but it's true. Along with the old Puritan "work ethic" - gotta go to work! - this is a very real phenomenon, people think they need to "tough it out".

[CanSocDem]

19. It's hard to tell....

...but this looks like the thesis you're hanging your hat on..:

"But to further add to the pain by suggesting, or stating outright, that illness (esp. mental illness and all of the shades of gray that term seems to cover) is a disorder of the soul, or of the belief system, is beyond cruel. It suggests that a better person would not have that illness, that someone who prayed more or better would not be ill. That someone whose soul was more pure would not be ill."

It suggests, and your industry supports, the notion that 'disease' is a condition MORE REAL than ones' own "soul" or "belief system".....I've read enough of your ramblings to know that THAT is what YOU believe.

We're 'afraid' of you...??? That sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Not to say that your vivid descriptions of 'dis-ease' aren't compelling.....They just sound too much like the christian describing how the stain on the wall IS the Mother Mary.

I wouldn't be afraid to declare that 'I just didn't see the MM.' Just as we're not afraid to declare to your industry that we just don't see 'dis-ease' everywhere.


.

[semillama]

20. Took you long enough to pop out of your hole.

Nice strawman.

[Heddi]

21. please don't feed the trolls

seriously. I knew this one would most likely pop in at some point....if we ignore it, hopefully it will go away

[CanSocDem]

22. Where do you get off...

....calling me a troll? It's some of your regulars who exhibit troll like behaviour by interjecting 'stupid' into serious subjects. And I never run from good questions....

For instance, in your own case, your set of beliefs are as bizarre to me as I assume, mine are to you. None-the-less, we are both skeptics...unless you have a new definition. What I hear mostly from you, is how people like myself, who have had enough from your industry, are making a big mistake by not buying into your system.

Your system is un-available to most and dangerous to the few that manage to access it in some form or another. Basically it's just about making money despite your technicolor presentations and snarky, arrogant demeanor.

The question is, how are you NOT part of the problem?


.

[TZ]

23. She's helping sick people get well

Where as YOU help sick people DIE by giving them misinformation. You know you really ought to READ SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS sometime to see the reality of disease-germ theory has been around for a LOONG time. I've told you once before that its people like you that caused rampant death and disease in the past. Fortunately modern medicine can control the worst excesses of your type. To bad you never had to live with the REALITY of small pox or Polio. You benefit from modern medicine while scoffing at it and attempting to undermine it. You are a parasite on society I think.
Edit: You don't belong here because you are NOT a skeptic..Skeptics accept the scientific method as a valid tool. You do not. Nor do you post respectfully as is the requirement here. Therefore that makes you a disruptor.

[Heddi]

25. Ignore it. It's not worth it

Really....if we pay them no attention, no matter how badly we'd like to interject some reason and thought into their frequent and ignorant diatribes, they will loose interest in our group. They will see that their very tired approach of the same flame-baity comments and useless pseudo-whatever garbage they're peddling isn't getting anyone's goat anymore, that we're not interested, and hopefully they will become bored, get another hobby, move out of mom's basement, and leave us alone.

Seriously. I have alerted the mods, since it is obvious that the poster in question has no interest in having any kind of rational discussion. They are not here as a skeptic, but as someone who is skeptical of us. They do not post in other forums, and has never posted any kind of constructive post related to skepticism, etc.

I would encourage you to do the same if you feel that any poster is a disruptor of the forums.

But we (as a group, I as an individual) should really stop responding to those who wish to disrupt our forum and take our conversations off track. It is a fruitless effort for us, and a seeming source of entertainment for them.

[TZ]

28. true.

I think I need to just click a button.

[Random_Australian]

32. Shhhhhhhhhh.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. CanSocDem needs a nap. He is getting grumpy. It is rude of us to keep giving him loud comments to play with and keeping him from naptime.

So shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Shall we sing him a lullaby?

[TZ]

33. LOL-. Welcome back!

The voice of reason returns...I might have to unclick someone to see how he responds to your posts..:rofl:

[cosmik debris]

24. You are a troll because you pick fights

The forums are for picking fights.

This is a group.

The groups are not for picking fights.

If you want to pick a fight, you should do it in the forums.

Otherwise, you will be called a troll.

[Heddi]

26. Just ignore it

Really....if we pay them no attention, no matter how badly we'd like to interject some reason and thought into their frequent and ignorant diatribes, they will loose interest in our group. They will see that their very tired approach of the same flame-baity comments and useless pseudo-whatever garbage they're peddling isn't getting anyone's goat anymore, that we're not interested, and hopefully they will become bored, get another hobby, move out of mom's basement, and leave us alone.

Seriously. I have alerted the mods, since it is obvious that the poster in question has no interest in having any kind of rational discussion. They are not here as a skeptic, but as someone who is skeptical of us. They do not post in other forums, and has never posted any kind of constructive post related to skepticism, etc.

I would encourage you to do the same if you feel that any poster is a disruptor of the forums.

But we (as a group, I as an individual) should really stop responding to those who wish to disrupt our forum and take our conversations off track. It is a fruitless effort for us, and a seeming source of entertainment for them.

[cosmik debris]

37. I just re-discovered something I forgot.

From the Woo Woo Credo

http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm

40. When all else fails, try to redefine what "skeptical", "skeptic" and "skepticism" mean so that you become a 'real' skeptic who accepts your own nonsense at face value.

Who does that remind you of?

[mr blur]

29. I'm almost tempted to take it off "Ignore" just to read its fatuous garbage.

Almost.

[Random_Australian]

30. Hello.

You, on how someone here is raising their children.

"Of course, if what you are after is your own little posse' to think like you and be like you, then for sure, keep those blinders on."

That was from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=8201&mesg_id=18331

Please note the kind of discussion-provoking language you were using. After all, saying "why not expose them to everything and let them decide?" is a deadly insult. You were indeed right to avoid saying such provocative things.

..........................
You, on what skeptics believe.

"the notion promoted that free-market western medicine is the pinnacle of humanitarian and scientific technology is, at best, laughable."

"Yet, it's considered 'rational' to stifle discussion about making things better.

Read quickly as I'm sure this will be deleted."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=18345&mesg_id=18488

..............................

And who could forget your responses on this thread?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=19995&mesg_id=19995

:)

...............................
You, when answering the quote "it's almost inevitable that at some point, some time in our lives we will all see something that isn't real."

"....how will we know?

Will we have to ask you? Will I have to go back to school?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=21829&mesg_id=22064

Anyway, knowing that you'll ignore anything I say, again, I'll do another response about the language you used just now.

[Random_Australian]

31. Let's take a look at your post.

In case someone is new to this series of arguments, please note that CanSocDem has been told that while the people in the skeptics group say that somethink should be tested to see if it works before you tell people that it does, we don't espouse the American user-pays delivery system - in fact, I know of no supporters here. This argument has beene done to death by us and ignored to life by CanSocDem.

Anyway, keeping that in mind -

"What I hear mostly from you, is how people like myself, who have had enough from your industry, are making a big mistake by not buying into your system."

Hmmmm, our industry, that you need to believe in. Last time I looked, the industry part of it didn't have a lot to do with testing. The latter is what we believe is an ethical requirement in medicine; the former not at all.

However, you have chosen to yet again say that this is what we believe. Furthermore, you have attempted to personalise the issue by saying that it is 'your industry' and 'your system'. It seems to me that the reason for this is to provoke a reaction.

"Your system is un-available to most"

No, widespread testing of the efficacy of medicine has been successfully implemented pretty much everywhere. Available to all, as it were.

"and dangerous to the few that manage to access it in some form or another."

Once a man was walking down the street. Someone looked him in the eye, and said "two groups of sick people were given the exact same care and treatment, except that one group also received a dose of (XYZ). Those who had received the dose experienced an alleviation of symptoms at a rate far higher than is likely to be obtained by chance fluctuations"

Of course, the man died immediately. Testing stuff to see if it works is just that dangerous.

Your statements are unjustified.

At the beginning of your post, you say that it is unjustified of Heddi to try and imply you use personal attacks and make inflammatory comments.

Then you say "Basically it's just about making money despite your technicolor presentations and snarky, arrogant demeanor."

I don't believe I need to say anything more until you address that point.

[CanSocDem]

36. I gave up...

...on your rambling misrepresentations last month. Bye...again.


"...snarky, arrogant demeanor."......and that is putting it nicely.


.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[varkam]

39. At least you didn't drop a deuce in the champagne bowl. eom

[Random_Australian]

40. ??? I'm a bit randomed out. Ah well, not enough to bother the poor admins.

Still, what has it come to when nonsensicality is deleted?

[varkam]

41. I guess you don't remember the thread a while back...

I think CD would probably get the joke

[Random_Australian]

46. I think I think, therefore, I think I am.

;)

(Not my quote)

[TZ]

42. well you know

wouldn't want the poor tro..er disrup..er poo er fellows feelings hurt by you, you mean old skeptic.
I love the people who love to dish it out, but can't take it!
:rofl:

[Random_Australian]

47. Well, even I shudder when I think of the horrible, horrible insults I used.

I insinuated he liked keylime pie. Now if that is not going too far, I don't know what is. (I can't remember what else I said but it was pretty similar)

[onager]

35. We would be alerting on the troll...

If we were shitheads.

:rofl:

Most of you will get that reference, I'm sure.

But you better get it fast, since this post will probably be Alerted Upon and deleted in about 10 nanoseconds.

[dmallind]

43. I'm far from a woo-woo fan. but I fear some aspects of it

Not in a generic sense of course. But specifically?

I fear errors brought about by antiquated systems, litte poka-yoke prcess checks, hurried and overworked staff. DU abounds with diatribes against obesity and alcohol consumption. Medical errors kill more than both.


I fear the overblown paranoid rhetoric about increased risks when all life choices increase risks of some things, and the risks of anything are woefully poorly communicated only as relative risksa. This kind of attitude, which to me seems like a combination of a vain desire for immortality and an irrational loathing of anyone who dares to live a life not dedicated to looking like a stick figure and eating like a rabbit, has led people to overmedicate, overworry and destroy their health both physical and mental chasing the unattainable and frankly unimportant. Worrying about having a "300% greater chance of X complication" makes as much sense as insisting on buying three lottery tickets because it gets you a 300% greater chance of winning.


I fear the pharmaceutical companies not in a traditional DU way as evil manipulators but because they are also trapped in a false market that means they can only focus on blockbuster drugs for large patient populations and then must mass market the things to create an even bigger need than really exists. The fact that they DO also manipulate venally at times doesn't help.


I fear the arms race of competing private hospitals and providers that means we have one fancy new CAT machine for every 20 patients that all stand idle the vast majority of the time, but only five minutes per patient for way too few doctors to find out what's really wrong with them.


As far as pain meds go I'm all for them myself. I've had kidney stones. They are not pleasant. You can survive them without prescription meds (I did for several hours) but they are a shitload nicer with them. That Dilaudid stuff is cool as hell, but I have no interest in taking it for a headache or other minor pain. Vicodin didn't really do much for me after that stuff wore off, but I still took a few rather than risk it.

[TZ]

44. can I tell you about a few things in my experiences?

One, most hospitals I've been in actually have too FEW MRI's or CAT's per patient..I know people who have had to wait a good deal of time to get access to them. Same with doctors..too few for too many people, although its the nursing shortage that really is a problem.
Not all pharmaceuticals only focus on the "big diseases". There are govt incentives to do research on what are called Orphan diseases (rare diseases)...and a lot of the biotech companies (especially the smaller startups) are looking at novel treatments for many types of diseases focusing on new technology, not just what is traditional and what sells...Some of the larger Pharma types do focus in to much on things like ED drugs, rogaine etc..but they do do SOME novel research. Would it surprise you to know that Merck is a big researcher investigating possible vaccines for malaria? Thats a high risk research, with not huge payoffs as most countries who would need the vaccine would no doubt be sold it below what is considered market value (or at least someone would do that, Merck would probably license their technology for that).
I agree with you that medical errors do account for a lot of problems..our health system is under considerable strain because of the huge flaws in the system and the skyrocketing prices for everything.
FWIW, I hope that makes you feel a bit better about some things or at least a better understanding.

[dmallind]

45. I'm a pharma industry veteran by the way, but I get your point

We may have different experiences re high end machinery, and both mya be perfectly valid. But objectively we can see other developed nations with better longevity and recovery rates where these machiens are shared between multiple facilities and where there are far more patients per machine. I am a skeptic in that objective data counts for more than subjective experience - mine included. If there were a solid link between number of CAT machines and outcome than put one on every block, but I've not seen it yet.

And sure your pharma point is valid. The smaller companies do a better job than the giants usually of cherrypicking medium and low patient-population drugs, but all of them at least try. I will say however without any jaded cynicism that I know where the investment and where the focus and where the attention goes in these companies, because I've worked for a few. Every R&D project is plotted against income streams long into the future, considering both generic competition and patient retention. The money and resources go to the best ones. Projects to increase gross margin and contribution are de rigueur in the industry now, and they kill plenty of Devloped projects let alone R&D. This in and of itself is not a problem - capitalism is just fine with me - I juet wish the particular market placed higher values on lower volumes. Every other market seems to. People willingly pay more for a limited edition car or even geegaws of various stripes, but for some reason believe a pill to cure obscure tropical diseases found only in Pago-Pago should be developed, approved and produced as cheaply as Tylenol. I also of course wish the market didn't deliberately set out to persuade everyone that they need bleeding-edge allergy reduction when off the shelf loratadine works just as well in the vast majority of cases, or that it's only a pharmacological issue that an 80 year old can't sustain an erection, but that's another gripe.

[Deep13]

48. I'm a lot more afraid of illness than of medicine. nt