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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 06:23 PM
Original message
Chiropractic care for babies and small children ?
I saw a story on the news tonight about how more parents are bringing children in for spinal adjustments to PREVENT asthma and allergies! Uh :wtf:...how the hell does this have ANY scientific merit...and I would but worried that one of these cranks would hurt my child..I've heard that some of these practitioners can do permanent damage if they don't know precisely what they are doing.
I would be interested to hear what our local nurses (Warpy, uppityperson, Heddi) think about this.....
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Quackery and Child Abuse
Absolutely unnecessary and of course, as we all very well know, there is *NO* proof, link, causation, correlation, or ANY even stretch of the imagination that puts "out of whack back" and "allergy" or "asthma" to be even remotely connected.

Any parent who believes that spinal manipulation will save their child from allergy or asthma is a dumb fuck with no place in society. Their children should be removed from the home, the parent should lose all further future rights of breeding, they should have their drivers license and passport revoked, and they should have their right to vote cancelled.

Collect all of these fuckers and put them on an island so that the other 99% of society that is rational and logical can carry on normally.

People who think like this have some fucking chromosomal abnormality I swear to god. They are too stupid to live, but sadly, as a free society, we must allow these people to live. OTherwise it's Eugenics and that's bad. But people like this make me firm in my belief that we should have tests for parenting....
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. IF it is done with only mild stretches, like what a parent would do bathing/playing with
the kid, then it seems ok. BUT why the hell would you play someone else to do this? Same as taking a class to learn to massage your baby. Excuse me, but as a nurse and a massage therapist, you massage them like when you dry them after a bath. Or if you put lotion/oil on them (not generally needed). It's that simple.

Attitudes like mine go a long way toward explaining why I'm not rich, can't scam people and find this really annoying.

Any chiroporactor that does anything more than what a parent would do while bathing or playing with baby or child is wrong and should get out of business.

IMHO
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. But how does that help with asthma/allergies?
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 12:47 AM by Heddi
I don't disagree that stretching and massaging is good...it feels good, gets the blood flowing, etc, but I don't see how it can help or prevent allergies or asthma. Especially since allergies are based on histamine and immunoglobulin and things like that---I'm not sure how histamine release or response can be changed by spinal manipulation, or even massage or stretching.

God knows I'm mildly allergic to everything under the sun (per my allergist) and I get horrible hives if the breeze blows just right or I happen to fart sideways on a Saturday at 4pm....I'd love it if massage or stretching, or even spinal manipulation could help me from breaking out in itchy hives, but I just don't see that happening....especially since prior to my back surgery in 2003 I went through yoga, chiropractic (which made my childhood-based scoliosis worse, worsened my herniated disk, and made surgery necessary instead of a possibility), and massage (as well as epidurals, physical therapy, pain meds). Ugh.

And when I was 12 I was dx with scoliosis and was thankfully Dx'd by a Chiropractor who immeidately referred my family to an orthapedist because she said that she was utterly unqualified to treat scoliosis in any degree, especially one with the significant curve that I had. I appreciate her honesty. She could have gotten a shitload of money from my family doing unnecessary and possibly dangerous treatment. But she didn't.

EDIT--original thread asked "Can we still burn them at the stake? It would be fun", which is why UP's reply is completely unrelated to this. She's not having dementia :D
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Of course we can, but wait! Is that approved by PETA?
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 12:51 AM by uppityperson
I don't see how it can help asthma either. I was thinking it wouldn't do harm, within those limitations, unless a parent decided that that was THE way to deal with asthma or allergy issues.


Edited to add that I'm not changing my subject line reply because it just makes so much sense.
Who isn't having dementia? thank you gramma

huh?
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wait--I completely changed my post
go back and read it :D And burning humans is always PETA approved, as long as the humans were eating meat.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I wish idiopathic scoliosis responded to exercise.
However, as far as chiro manipulation for general health problems, it's a little too woo-ish, like meridians and stuff in acupuncture for colds. :eyes:

Like acupuncture, there is mild short term benefit for some, in say low back pain, non-specific.

However, acute episodes of LBP get better about 85% of the time in 10-14 days, with or without a shaman, in a white coat or otherwise. :P

What I do not support are long term passive treatments for LBP, that never seem to get around to endurance, flexibility and strength for functional restoration.

The preferred protocol is a war bonnet and parrot feathers in my fur, a loud bark, meaningful sniffing of the air for evil humors and a hefty bill. 85% positive response rate, sometimes I read their fortune at no xtra charge. :P
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. The "cup runneth over" syndrome
The only way I can see it would help is if this is the issue. The "cup runneth over syndrome" is what I call it when your body has dealt with everything thrown its way, until 1 thing too many. Straw that broke the camel's back sort of thing.

Say I am juggling several things, work, life, etc, and I get my workload increased suddenly and my sleep decreased. I'll be more likely to get sick, to not fight off virus X as well. Or my allergies will act up more, I'll be more sensitive to them. So, off the the chiropractor to get my back adjusted since one of my issues is repetitively moving something one direction, which tweaks my back, muscle spasms, etc, and I've decided that twisting my hips back the other way helps. Or it does help.

So, that one thing is taken care of and I can tolerate my allergies better again.

However, I am an adult. And I'd rather get massage to relax the charlie horsed muscles in my back and hips than get twisted.

I don't see any reason to do this with infants or kids. I'd rather see the parents figure out other ways to deal with allergies and asthma, whether that be home modifications, behavioral, working with someone trained with exercise and kids and asthma/allergies (if there is such a thing).
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. after infant massage...
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Most-Emailed-Photos/ss/1756/im:/090325/ids_photos_wl/r2420629709.jpg

"Seven babies sit in tummy tubs filled with water to cool down after a baby massage class held for young mothers in IJmuiden March 24, 2009. The "cooling down" segment is to simulate a womb-like environment for the infants to experience the warmth and comfort"

Why the woowooness? I read an article on "how to play with your infant" when Jr was little, given to me by a insecure woowoo mom. It instructed me to place my hands under jr's armpits, raise in air above head, gently lower while saying "whee", and to do this 7 times.

Good grief. Play with the kid. Kids like to sit in water. Why make it so "mysterious"? rant over.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. But they can correct scoliosis.
Not really.

I give this 5 woo's and a boo-hiss.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. early detection and physical therapy (exercises, stretches, body awareness modification) can
IF a chiropractor is the sort that does that, then they can help. Or IF they are the type who refers to someone who can help that way, they can help with scoliosis. Most cases of scoliosis.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. A good PT eval and then HEP
save a few bucks and do home exercises, just as good and alot less $$$.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Exercise programs have not been shown to keep scoliosis
http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Scoliosis/scoliosis_ff.asp#f

"Can Exercise Help?
Exercise programs have not been shown to keep scoliosis from getting worse. But it is important for all people, including those with scoliosis, to exercise and remain physically fit. Weight-bearing exercise, such as walking, running, soccer, and gymnastics, helps keep bones strong. For both boys and girls, exercising and playing sports improves their sense of well-being.

About Other Treatments for Scoliosis
So far, the following treatments have not been shown to keep curves from getting worse in scoliosis:

Chiropractic treatment
Electrical stimulation
Nutritional supplements
Exercise. "
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Treatment depends on the cause also.
If it is a teenage boy who slouches or someone with 1 side predominant usage pattern, straighten him up, get him PT who will give him exercises to strengthen the side of his back that is weak or to balance out the sides.

If it is structural, deal with that. But structure modifies how the body uses itself, which modifies how it structures/builds itself, etc etc etc.

Rather like someone who does a physical job that involves a repetitive motion, what they do modifies their body development, which modifies what they can do. If that makes sense. Same with body building/wt training.

If it is from spinal issues, vertebrae not being formed properly, then that needs to be addressed as well as working with balancing how body moves.

There is no 1 right answer for everyone, no 1 right specific cure, since although we start with the same basic body model, each of us has a different life and slightly modified bits.

Does that all make sense? Not very succinct here (or is it concise), rambling.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I do agree treatment depends on cause.
The diagnosis is the key and then the treatment options will follow. :)

This is heart breaking. Chickens. Who knew? OK, apparently Riggns knew, since 1977. :eyes:

..........

The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery, Vol 59, Issue 8 1020-1026, Copyright © 1977 by Journal of Bone and
Joint Surgery, Inc

Scoliosis in chickens
RS Riggins, UK Abbott, CR Ashmore, RB Rucker and JR McCarrey


Scoliosis developed in 55 per cent of sexually mature birds (68 per cent of male and 46 per cent of female birds) in a highly inbred line of chickens originally produced from white Leghorns. The curve could first be detected at five to six weeks of age and progressed until spontaneous fusion of the thoracic vertebrae occurred. Studies of these chickens indicated that abnormalities of growth and development of the spine are not the primary cause of the scoliosis. Preliminary studies of the paravertebral musculature also indicated that simple muscle imbalance is not responsible for the curve. Initial studies of collagen extracted from the scoliotic line of chickens showed it to be more soluble than similar collagen extracted from white Leghorn controls.

.........

Here's a pretty good graphic for us flightless humans: :P




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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That is a good graphic. The spinal processes rotate as they bend also.
Meaning that not only does the spine curve, but the vertebrae also rotate a bit as the spine is curved, so the back sticking out part doesn't end up sticking out straight back. This torques the muscles, the muscles torque the vertebrae, trying to make things be (a) a smooth curve and/or (b) straight as they should be.

One problem that happens with severe scoliosis is that lung capacity is impacted, diminished, due to the curves and rotations.

Poor chickens indeed.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Exactly!
With severe scoliosis patients can develop cor pulmonale. I saw that back in the era before school screenings, when kids would present with 50' curves, it was tragic.

Also, you are correct, most spinal motion is a combination of flexion-extension and rotation.

Well, since I have a captive audience-- heh heh and you are interested in this stuff :P :P :P :P

I hope you don't mind if I share some of this, as I am somewhat interested in this stuff too. :P

Also a little refresher never hurts (me). Anyway, UP, here is some info you may find interesting and probably are familiar with most of it anyway.

I'm taking a break from work and now you have my brain cells engaged, some work break. :eyes:

Here's a little of what I can recall at the moment. :)

Scoliosis is a curvature of the spine in the frontal plane, right to left.

Scoliosis is categorized in the following manner:

Scoliosis
1.) Idiopathic
2.) Congenital
3.) Acquired
a.) fractures
b.) degenerative disc disease
c.) post irradiation
4.) Neuromuscular
a.) Muscular dystrophy comes to mind
b.) Post traumatic, ex: cord injury

Curvatures in the side plane, front to back, are also categorized: These are generally called kyphotic deformaties or kyphosis. That's the kid with slumped posture or the little old lady with an osteoporotic compression fracture that leads to a dowagers hump ( BTW I hate that term, it's unkind, but it is graphic)

Kyphosis:
1.) Postural round back
2.) Scheurmann's disease
3.) Acquired
a.)Compression fractures
b.) disc degeneration

Just to make things interesting, there is another category, called kypho-scoliosis.

In general when we are dealing with kids, teens and young folks, who, as you said, " a teenage boy who slouches," and has a prominent thoracic kyphosis, the differential diagnosis is either postural roundback or Scheurmann's.

A quick test is to have them do a prone push-up, if they raise slowly as requested, you can observe the kyphosis correct, that means it is flexible and most likely postural round back. If it is rigid and does not correct, it is most likely Schuermann's (esp. teen male). Schuermann's can then be diagnosed on plain films, by measuring increased thoracic kyphosis and looking for anterior vertebral wedging >5' in three consecutive vertebrae.

For postural round back, I agree with you, postural cueing and extension exercises at home. If, the pain causes muscle fatigue and over use, then, a short course of PT for upper back strengthening.

When we talk about scoliosis in kids, teens we are most often referring to idiopathic scoliosis.


Now a days with school screening being so efficient, small curves, on average around 12' can be picked up called "schooliosis" LOL, and these require observation only.

Larger curves have guidelines for treatment.

Curves that are flexible and correct with side bending and are below a certain degree may require bracing.

Curves above T10 are treated with a Milwaukee brace, curves with an apex at T10-T12 are generally placed in a lower profile Boston brace (TLSO). That makes a big difference to the kids, as a Milwaukee brace is pretty noticeable.

Curves that progress despite bracing or curves that are above a certain degree on x-ray may require a long spinal fusion.

Most kids fall into the observation group.

Since no one knows what causes idiopathic scoliosis, and I know folks have been looking longer than I can remember, I can't support that exercise causes idiopathic scoliosis to correct nor does it change it's course of progression. However, since exercise in general is good, it can't hurt.

What could hurt is a child the age of ten with a 20' right thoracic and 15' compensatory lumbar curve were advised to undergo chiropractic treatment, or the family was lulled into thinking that curve progression did not require monitoring or treatment, because somehow exercise would change the course of the curve progression.

As far as congenital scoliosis, that is a failure of spine development, either the vertebrae fail to segment or fail to form, thus, growth is unequal by virtue of absent growth plates, those curves tend to be very aggressive and progress rapidly as the child grows.
........

From Duke Univesity Wheeless Textbook of Orthopedics on line:

The Risser classification has to do with closure of the apophyseal cartilage along the ilaic crest and is a kind of measure of skeletal age. The younger the child at presentaton with scoliosis, meaning the longer time left for growth remaining, the more worry that the curve will progress during the grwoth spurt.

Idiopathic Scoliosis:

- Discussion:
- bracing has been the mainstay of non operative treatment of significant curves which have a potential to progress;
- progression is related to size of curve, area of spine involved, & physiologic age of child;
- size of curve:
- larger curves progress to > deg than smaller curves (many curves less than 30 degrees don't progress);
- thoracic and double primary curves progress more than single lumbar or thoracolumbar curves.
- physiologic age (based on menarche & risser status);
- Risser stage 0-1: curves between 20-29 deg have > 65% risk of progression;
- Risser grade 2-4: curves between 20-29 deg have > 20% risk of progression;
- the major controversy surrounding bracing is whether or not it can influence the natural history of scoliosis;
- in the review article by RA Dickson and SL Weinstein (JBJS-B March 1999), the authors make several points;
- the authors note that the Cobb angle remains the main determinate of curve severity eventhough this is a two demensional
measurement of a three demensional deformity (it may not be the most optimal measurement of curve severity and correction);
- use of a brace in flexible curves may actually reduce the Cobb angle by flattening the lumbar lordosis which negatively affects
the saggital component of the scoliotic curve;
- hence ensure that use of a brace is not actually worsening thoracic lordosis (which is often the predominant aspect of scoliosis;
- authors note that there is some evidence that bracing is ineffective in treating scoliotic curves;
- reference:
- A statistical comparison between natural history of idiopathic scoliosis and brace treatment in skeletally immature adolescent girls.
CJ Goldberg et al. Spine. Vol 18. 1993. p 902-908.
- Brace compliance in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. GR Houghston et al. JBJS Vol 69-B. 1987. p 852.
- Use of the Milwaukee brace for progressive idiopathic scoliosis. KJ Noonan et al. JBJS Vol 78-A. 1996. 557-567.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Guidelines for Brace Use:
- less than 30 deg:
- curves < 20 deg are treated by observation alone;
- patients presenting w/ idiopathic spinal curves < 30 deg should be observed for progression ( > 5 deg change in 6 mo) before instituting bracing.
- ie, curves between 20 and 29 deg that show progression need to be treated w/ orthosis;
- greater than 30 deg;
- curves between 30 and 40 deg are treated w/ orthosis on first visit to office if they are less than Risser 3;
- hence, skeletally immature patients w/ significant curves (greater than 30 deg) require bracing even if there is no evidence of progression;
- greater than 45 deg;
- although some flexible curves between 40 and 45 deg can be treated successfully, bracing is not used for most curves > 45 deg;


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Vital Capacity: (see cardiopulmonary function in scoliosis)
- application of brace results in a significant reduction in vital capacity (14%), functional residual capacity (22%), & total lung capacity (12%);
- bracing will reduce lung function by 10 to 15%;


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Special Considerations:
- infantile scoliosis:
- bracing is the primary treatment for pts with infantile and juvenile idiopathic scoliosis;
- types of braces:
- curves w/ apices lower than T-8 or lower may be treated w/ underarm braces,
such as Wilmington brace (custom made) or Boston brace (prefabricated)
- these curves cannot be except to treat higher curves;
- high thoracic curves may require the Milwaukee Brace;
- how many hours per day is necessary?
- as noted by Rowe et al, probability of a successfull result was directly related to number of hours braces was worn per day;
- 23 hours was more effective than 16 hours which was more effective than 8 hrs;
................

This may be of interest to you:

The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 82:1157 (2000)
© 2000 The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery, Inc.

Current Concepts Review

Etiology of Idiopathic Scoliosis: Current Trends in Research*
Thomas G. Lowe, M.D., Michael Edgar, M.Chir., F.R.C.S., Joseph Y. Margulies, M.D., Ph.D.§, Nancy H. Miller, M.D.#, V. James Raso, M.A.Sc.**, Kent A. Reinker, M.D. and Charles-Hilaire Rivard, M.D.
*No benefits in any form have been received or will be received from a commercial party related directly or indirectly to the subject of this article. No funds were received in support of this study.
Woodridge Orthopaedic and Spine Center, 3550 Lutheran Parkway West, Suite 201, Wheat Ridge, Colorado 80033.
Orthopaedic Department, Middlesex Hospital and University College London, 149 Harley Street, London W1N 2DE, United Kingdom.
§Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Montefiore Medical Center, 111 East 210th Street, Bronx, New York 10467.
#Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, 601 North Caroline Street, Suite 5254, Baltimore, Maryland 21287.
**Orthopaedic Engineering Group, Glenrose Rehabilitation Hospital, 1023 111th Avenue, Edmonton, Alberta T5G 0B7, Canada.
Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Shriners Hospital for Children, 13 Punahou Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96826.
Centre de Recherche Pediatrique, Hôpital Sainte-Justine, 3175, Cote Sainte-Catherine, Montreal, Quebec H3T 1C5, Canada.

Introduction

Current population studies characterize idiopathic scoliosis as a single-gene disorder that follows the patterns of mendelian genetics, including variable penetrance and heterogeneity.

The role of melatonin and calmodulin in the development of idiopathic scoliosis is likely secondary, with indirect effects on growth mechanisms.

Reported abnormalities of connective tissue, skeletal muscle, platelets, the spinal column, and the rib cage are all thought to be secondary to the deformity itself.

Although no consistent neurological abnormalities have been identified in patients with idiopathic scoliosis, it is possible that a defect in processing by the central nervous system affects the growing spine.

The true etiology of idiopathic scoliosis remains unknown; however, it appears to be multifactorial.

Idiopathic scoliosis is a pathological entity of unknown etiology. Although the entity was first described by Hippocrates, the term idiopathic scoliosis was probably introduced in the middle of the nineteenth century by Bauer39; it was used by Nathan in 190967, defined by Whitman in 192293, included by Cobb in his classification19, and popularized by the Scoliosis Research Society40. Although most physicians who treat spinal deformities understand the term idiopathic scoliosis, the important questions concerning its etiology remain unanswered.

The objectives of this paper are to provide an update on a number of aspects of the etiology of idiopathic scoliosis, to present an inventory of current investigational work, and to suggest directions for future research. The identification of etiological factors will depend on continued research in each of the areas discussed in this review. Further understanding of this disorder will enable the clinician to better predict prognosis and to aid in the development of more effective treatment modalities. This work represents an effort on the part of the Scoliosis Research Society Etiology Committee to promote an awareness of the research in this field.
.....................


OK--back to work for this dawggy :hi:







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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's best to weed them out of the genepool before the parents get too attached to them. n/t
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. I am curious
when did these parents lose their last vestige of common sense?
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