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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:11 PM
Original message
What the hell is "Qi"?
I was taking a dump at work today, and somebody left a woo-woo magazine on the back of the crapper. Naturally, with time to kill, I flipped it open and starting reading about the newest miracle cures (scientifically studied!) like reiki, acupuncture and herbalism. In various places in the magazine, "Qi" was mentioned, but I couldn't figure out what the hell this thing is. Is it somehow related to "chi" (or perhaps a new spelling?) or is it a different thing?

What's funny is that the magazine was a really professional looking thing with a name like "Natural Women" or some bullshit like that. It's funny because it was in the men's room and had obviously been thumbed through quite a bit already when I got to it.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Qi is shorthand for "bullshit"
see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

In traditional Chinese culture, qi (氣 / 气; Pinyin qì, Wade-Giles ch'i Jyutping hei; Korean gi; Japanese ki; Vietnamese khí; pronounced IPA: in Standard Mandarin) is an active principle forming part of any living thing.

It is frequently translated as "energy flow," and is often compared to Western notions of energeia or élan vital (vitalism) as well as the yogic notion of prana. The literal translation is "air," "breath," or "gas" (compare the original meaning of Latin spiritus "breathing"; or the Common Greek πνεῦμα, meaning "air," "breath," or "spirit"; and the Sanskrit term prana, "breath" ).

...

Theories of traditional Chinese medicine assert that the body has natural patterns of qi that circulate in channels called meridians in English.<18> Symptoms of various illnesses are often believed to be the product of disrupted, blocked, or unbalanced qi movement (interrupted flow) through the body's meridians, as well as deficiencies or imbalances of qi (homeostatic imbalance) in the various Zang Fu organs.<19> Traditional Chinese medicine often seeks to relieve these imbalances by adjusting the circulation of qi (metabolic energy flow) in the body using a variety of therapeutic techniques. Some of these techniques include herbal medicines, special diets, physical training regimens (qigong, tai chi chuan, and other martial arts training),<20> moxibustion, massage to clear blockages, and acupuncture, which uses small diameter metal needles inserted into the skin and underlying tissues to reroute or balance qi.<21>

It has been hypothesized that the alleged therapeutic effects of acupuncture can be explained by endorphin-release, by relaxation or by simple placebo effects.<22> The NIH Consensus Statement on acupuncture in 1997 noted that concepts such as qi "are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture."<23>

It is hypothesized that qi could be transmitted through the fascia independent of any neurological activity.<24>

....

There are many uses of the term "qi" in acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, but it's a imprecise concept of which the best, non-poetic translation is probably "stuff".<25>

There are other uses of the term qì which are slightly more concrete; for instance, following an organ network, it means "function", e.g. gān qì (肝氣) or "liver qì" should be interpreted roughly as "liver function". Further confounding matters, the Chinese term gān is itself a bundle of functional interactions with other organ networks, rather than referring specifically to the tissues of the Liver.<26> A particularly notable discrepancy is pí qì (脾氣) or "spleen qì", which refers mostly to quality of digestion. While from a Western Medical Science perspective the spleen is involved in digestion, sending bilirubin to the liver for inclusion in bile fluids, it is a minor player compared to other organs.

There are also terms like Yuán Qì (元氣) and Zhēn qì (真氣) which are all relatively well defined concepts, and refer variously to interactions between organ networks. When used in the sense "qì is obstructed", it may simply refer to a blockage of body fluids (eg, lymph, veinous blood and interstitial fluid) easily moved by massage such as Tuina.

So, care should be taken during translation to know which sense of the term "qì" is being used. Each of them is its own scientific interpretation. The "sensational" types, ie those which have no explanation in current standard histological models of the body, are the dé qì (得氣) effect felt when an acupuncture needle is inserted and manipulated, and closely related the yíng qì (營氣), which is said to circulate in the jīng luò (經絡).

There have been a number of studies of qi - especially in the sense used by traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture. These studies have often been problematic, and are hard to compare to each other, as they lack a common nomenclature.<27> While some studies claim to have been able to measure "qi", as understood in acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, or the effects of manipulating "qi" through e.g. acupuncture. Other studies have showed, that sham acupuncture is as effective as real acupuncture<28>, removing the concept of qi from the equation.

It has been hypothesized that the effects of acupuncture can be explained by endorphin-release, by relaxation or by placebo effects.<22> The NIH Consensus Statement on acupuncture in 1997 noted that concepts such as Qi "are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture."<23>

However more recent investigations<29> point to connective tissue mechanotransduction, in other words a domino effect caused by the specific twisting and knotting of the fabric of the body. The connections with electric conductivity were studied in the United States in the late 19th Century, and are currently the subject of more active research.<30>

-------------
http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html

Ch'i or qi (pronounced "chee" and henceforth spelled "chi") is the Chinese word used to describe "the natural energy of the Universe." This energy, though called "natural," is spiritual or supernatural, and is part of a metaphysical, not an empirical, belief system. New Agers often refer to this energy as subtle energy. Chi is thought to permeate all things, including the human body. Such metaphysical systems are generally referred to as types of vitalism. One of the key concepts related to chi is the concept of harmony. Trouble, whether in the universe or in the body, is a function of disharmony, of things being out of balance and in need of restoration to equilibrium.

----------------

hope that clears things up for you :crazy:
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yep, that sounds like the bullshit I read alright
I'm paraphrasing, but: what about when someone has a skin type of "vava" that provides a more centralized transdermal-differentiation of the conduits of chi, thus allowing for more concentrated loci during the reiki touch session? Does that actually mean ANYTHING? Or is it bullshit to sell woo-woos? If so, I want in - what a bunch of mugus these woo-woos are...
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Total garbage - some fools are so desperate to believe this shit,
they'll spend a fortune on it.






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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Qi=Chi=Kee
And let's all remember the words of the late Perry DeAngelis:

"Qi spelled backwards is 'crap'"
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is that the one that has the centerfold babe totally showing her chakras?
That's hot.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Kitty Porn
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's a dog! EEeeww...interspecies porn
Here are the good guys!


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. 3.14159 + 1
:rofl:


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. OK.
See Pi is 3.14159

Now add a letter to P and you get Q.

Thus, if Pi = 3.14159

then Pi + 1 is, Qi = 3.14159 + 1

See? Thats's my little joke. :P

Funny huh! :rofl:

Hello?

Crickets?

Dang, that joke is always a sedative-hypnotic.



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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Well, I got it anyway. And thought it was.... supposed to be funny.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Ouchie!
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 10:22 AM by bluedawg12
:rofl:

I am busy working out the formula for funny.

My tarot reading said I was close.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's an attempt to get rid of an awkward Scrabble letter (nt)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. Qi is a Chinese word that is difficult to translate, but not unlike its English equivalents
Edited on Wed Apr-22-09 08:31 PM by HamdenRice
I suppose your willingness to think seriously about a concept like Qi or Chi is proportional to your exposure to other languages. If you don't have a lot of exposure to other languages, it might sound like "bullshit" or "woo woo" but if you have lots of exposure to non-European languages, it's not particularly surprising.

Originally the word seems to come from the word for vapor arising from cooking food. More broadly, it is sometimes translated as energy or spirit.

If that sounds overly mystical, mixing medical and spiritual concepts, it isn't.

Think about the word in English, "energy" and all its cognates.

I could say, "that woman is energetic" and the word would refer to personality. Or I could give you a precise formula in physics that relates energy, mass and momentum. Or I could tell you about the role of oil in our economy by discussing "new forms of green energy," or give you a tip about "energy stocks."

Similarly, we could talk in English about the biological basis for "respiration," or the artistic concept of "inspiration" or the religious concept of "spirit" or the criminal law concept of "conspiracy" -- all originating from a word related to "breath." That doesn't mean that all the cognates in English are "bullshit" just because the word has traveled metaphorically in the language to mean many things.

Chinese language is very different from English in terms of its roots, and how concepts developed and words became metaphors for other concepts. Qi is a word that has many meanings. That doesn't mean that it is "bullshit"; just that you don't speak Chinese.

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. The word in and of itself might not be bullshit...
...but I haven't run into any usage of the word yet that isn't bullshit. I suppose if one translation is something like "breath", and someone in the context of say, running hard for a while and slowing down says to a fellow runner, "Hey, slow down a moment, I've got to catch my qi!", that wouldn't be bullshit.

I think you know we aren't talking about those kinds of usages of the word. If I say, "Sarah Palin would make a terrible President!", am I being closed-minded because I'm not considering all of the possible people who might be named Sarah Palin apart from the well-known governor of Alaska?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The word is one of the most commonly used roots in Mandarin
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 12:52 PM by HamdenRice
It's also used to translate concepts from western science to Chinese. It's very difficult for westerners to tell from translations whether it is being used in a spiritual or material sense.

So, for example, if I said, "you need 6-8 hours of sleep per day to cultivate your Qi," you might think I was engaging in "woo woo."

But if the idiomatic translation was, "you need 6-8 hours of sleep per day in order to have enough energy to function," then it probably wouldn't be considered "woo woo".

Although it's used in acupuncture to explain energy flow through "meridians" that no western medicine can find, it is also used to explain the flow of bile from the gall bladder. Chinese doctors trained exclusively in western medicine talking about western medical techniques and functions in Mandarin will use the term qi almost as much as a practitioner of "Chinese traditional" medicine.

A tai chi (qi) master who says he can throw an opponent using qi might mean that he is projecting some mysterious energy from his fingertips to several feet in front of him; but another tai chi master might be talking about the prosaic use of leverage to increase the effect of energy.

One qi gong instructor might be interpreted to be saying that he is asking students to practice making qi flow through meridians; another might be saying that qi gong is the practice of breathing deeply.

The term qi is simply too ubiquitous and amorphous for a non-native Chinese speaker to evaluate in any given translation whether a prosaic or supernatural effect is intended -- just as a non-native English speaker might have trouble understanding what is intended by the term "energy": is it energy coming from crystals to my shakra or energy generated in my mitochondria?

Sometimes qi has a meaning as vague as "stuff." Unless you are fluent in Mandarin, your best bet is to withhold judgment about a particular use of the term.

If you "haven't run into any usage of the word yet that isn't bullshit," then the next logical question is, how much Chinese literature have you read in Mandarin or how much Chinese translated into English that nevertheless declined to translate qi? There seems to be a lot of hysteria within "skeptic" circles about the use and translation of the term.

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That "hysteria"...
...(yes, never miss an opportunity to frame an adversary who says something you don't like as "hysterical" about it) is because most of the usages we English-speaking folk encounter in daily life are woo-ish uses of the word. Eventually a word means what common usage says it means. Since we have ordinary English words for the ordinary non woo-ish senses of the word "qi", when English speaking people use a Chinese loan word it's typically because they're going after a specific as-English-speaking-people-will-take-the-word meaning, and when it comes to "qi", that meaning is almost always mystical.

Take the word "sombrero". In Spanish, it simply means "hat", any kind of hat. When we use the word in English, we use the word to refer to a very specific style of hat, one from a Spanish-speaking culture. Would you expect me to start calling berets and bowlers and fezzes and top hats "sombreros" just to show how learned and multi-culturally sensitive I am?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Then you must agree that many posts in this thread are wrong
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 01:07 PM by HamdenRice
For example, 'Qi is shorthand for "bullshit"' (post number 1) would have to be modified to say, 'When western writers, writing in English, decline to translate qi into English, they are probably using qi to refer to, what in my opinion is a bullshit concept, but the Chinese word, qi, in Mandarin, is perfectly legitimate if metaphorical word that has many meanings, much like the English word, "energy" or the root "spiri" which is used in many English words.'
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. All of your proposed modifications...
...are completely unnecessary in the well-understood context of the conversation here: English speaking skeptics. It's absolutely ridiculous and purely gratuitous to fault the poster who wrote "Qi is shorthand for 'bullshit'" for not taking into account every possible meaning of the word down to it deepest and broadest etymological roots.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. The magazine wasn't using "Qi"
in the more practical Mandarin context that you're describing, but instead used it in a mystical context. Even the most nuanced reading of the magazine wouldn't provide a context in which the word was presented as the English version of "energy" as we use it in a purely scientific sense.

Do you really think this magazine translated the term "Qi" incorrectly, misleading, whether deliberately or not, their readers into the buying the products being peddled on the pages of their magazine?

Quote:
"If that sounds overly mystical, mixing medical and spiritual concepts, it isn't."

I'm not sure about your definition of "mystical", but to me someone who use spiritual concepts to guide their medical decisions is practicing mysticism. Here's the definition from dictionary.com:

mys·ti·cal (mĭs'tĭ-kəl)
adj.
1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
5. Unintelligible; cryptic.

I'm in the skeptics forum, so I can say pretty confidently that mysticism is bullshit without having the fear of offending someone. You make not think so, but if that's the case, you're probably in the wrong forum.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I agree, they are using it in the mystical sense--but the linguistics are interesting
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 07:16 AM by HamdenRice
But it's also a curious phenomenon -- how to translate the untranslatable.

The biggest regret of my life is that I did not learn Mandarin, which I would have had to start doing when I was young. I learned other languages, mostly European. Then in my late 20s, I started learning an African language, SeTswana.

But I had always minored in East Asian studies and found some of their concepts fascinating but elusive.

There is this strange contradiction in language and translation. On the one hand, language is universal. On the other hand, languages develop conceptual constructs that are untranslatable.

For example, any human who has a language can be dropped into the most isolated community, one that has been out of touch with all other communities for thousands of years and has a language completely unrelated to our languages -- say in New Guinea -- and in a while pick up that language. I used to read for research first hand accounts of the first explorers of southern Africa -- Livingstone, Broadbent, Moffat and the like. Some were chauvinists, but some, like Livingstone, became deeply impressed by the local cultures. But what was so fascinating in reading their journals, whatever their perspective, is how they learned the local languages and began to realize that the local people were talking about things that weren't so different from what Englishmen would be talking about -- gossip, politics, lawsuits, crops and pests, gripes about the chief. So I guess Chomsky is right. Many concepts behind words are hardwired. They are universal. Grammar and syntax also seem to be hardwired. The phonetics however are arbitrary.

But then, on a conceptual level, cultures veer off into untranslatable concepts. Words get related to each other through phonetics in ways that change their meaning. For example, we have the words, "warrior" and "soldier" for a professional fighter. In Setswana the word is "mogale" or "mohale." I couldn't figure out what it signified until a fluent English- and Tswana- speaking friend explained that the root, "gale," means "sharp." He said, the connotation was a lot like the way Americans think of Indian fighters as "braves." "Mogale" means roughly "sharp one." Rather than being related to "war", "mogale" is related to a personal attribute of one who fights -- he is "sharp" (clever), and he carries a sharp weapon (a spear).

The Tswana word for money is "madi." It's the same word for "blood." The Tswana had no word for money until the British arrived, and the Tswana transliterated the strange thing ("money") the British were telling them they needed to the word it sounded like, "madi" ("blood"). But the connotations were also that the Tswana saw that this foreign money/madi suddenly "circulated" through the community like blood. They also learned that in order to earn money you had to go to the mines, where many people died from bloody accidents. So money/madi is connected to blood, the circulation through the community of this new foreign thing, and the danger and sadness of dying in the mines. The word for "blood money" is "madi madi." When Botswana (the country of the Tswana) became independent, they renamed their money after something much more positive -- Pula ("rain"), which is very treasured in semi-desert Botswana. (One way to say hello, is "May it rain!" which, I now suppose also connotes, "may you make money", which, Botswana with its superfast economic growth rate, seems to be doing.)

There are other weird examples. Tswana (and most Black South African languages) have no pronouns for the genders. The have a very gendered language (mother, father, sister, brother, etc.), but no "he" and "she." The pronoun they use is roughly translated, "this one" and "that one." You may notice that speaking informally with even the most educated black South Africans, they will often refer to third persons as "that one" or "the other one" because it takes them a few seconds to think of whether to use "he" or "she" -- the same way a non-native Spanish, French or Italian speaker has trouble with masculine and feminine nouns and "el" and "la" -- or will refer to a man as "she" or a woman as "he".

So my only point in posting about qi is that while many westerners are enamored of the mystical concept of qi, none of us can really begin to imagine what it means to a fluent Chinese speaker, and yet it is one of the most a fundamental concepts throughout the culture. What are its connotations and related concepts? How does the mystical connotation affect the way a Chinese doctor trained in western medicine thinks about prosaic, material, scientific processes that also are described as "qi"?

Another example. I spent some time working on an environmental law project with Chinese counterparts, so I had to learn a lot about Chinese law. In Chinese law, there are two concepts that are untranslatable -- li and fa. Li seems to mean law as "order," "pattern" and "doing the right thing." Fa means a rule that regulates the lowest common denominator of behavior; it's sort of like "criminal statutes." Chinese law, because of its Confucian nature, has always prized li over fa. But the result, which is strange to a western trained lawyer, is that Chinese law is full of "li" statements -- a person should do this or a person should do that for the good of society. We simply don't have that in our system, or not very much. Much of our law is in the form, "if a person does X, then Y will happen" or "in order to do X, a person needs license Y." Western law is mostly fa.

Some western advisers went into these Chinese projects saying, you can't improve your environment with laws about what people should do to be virtuous. But then to get them to change their system to ours would require a makeover of the entire cultural system of law, politics and government administration. I think it's hard for westerners to understand that as bad as Chinese government often is, it has a 4000 year history of thinking that it's job is to make society virtuous, and most Chinese think of it that way also. That's why when it's not virtuous and is revealed to be corrupt, people get really, really angry and rebel. That's when government loses the "mandate of heaven."

It's just interesting to me.

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Now that was a good and interesting post.
If you'd come at the matter this way in the first place the discussion would have been a lot less contentious. Perhaps we need both "li" and "fa" posting guidelines. :)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. "li" and "fa" posting guidelines
:rofl:

:hi:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. I understood your post to ask about a skeptical analysis of a concept used in TCM.
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 10:47 AM by bluedawg12
TCM = traditional Chinese medicine.

The counterparts in the US, of alternative medicine, merit skepticism. Hence this forum.
The same rules should apply to alternative medicine from any other source or culture.

I must admit, I am not a Mandarin scholar and all of the cultural uses of Qi in China are unknown to me.

But the intent of the question posed in the OP was clear to me.

So, I had to rely on a some experts in the field of medicine who happened to be of Chinese origin, spoke the langauge, hailed from that culture and some of whom were also experts in "Western" medicine.

That search led me to a web site that specifally sought to examine the impact of Qi, and other aspects of TCM, on Chinese health care delivery.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9609/china.html

Traditional Medicine and Pseudoscience in China: A Report of the Second CSICOP Delegation (Part 2)
This is the second of a two-part report of a recent CSICOP delegation to the People's Republic of China. In this article the authors describe their participation in a symposium on pseudoscience in China, held in Beijing, and their further interactions with practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Shanghai.


>>The statements of the TCM physicians, on the other hand, tended to be rambling, global, and tangential (this was not merely a language barrier, for many of them spoke excellent English). The traditionalists were difficult to pin down because when they had no available answer, the question would be redirected. While TCM physicians downplayed the importance of statistical approaches and placebo-controlled clinical trials, they did not hesitate to enlist such data when it seemed to their advantage. We came away with the strong feeling that the TCM community, with a few exceptions, does not really understand the power of the placebo effect nor the need for double-blind clinical trials. They seemed not to comprehend why we were not impressed by testimonials or anecdotes about individuals who had recovered after TCM treatments. Many claims seemed inflated, such as that for TCM's effectiveness in Alzheimer's disease and AIDS (see, e.g., Hou 1991). In the end, we were left with the same sense of frustration we often felt after arguing with advocates of `alternative medicine' at home. Both exhibit an essential vagueness when explaining the mechanisms presumed to underlie their treatments. Both are prone to assume that metaphors count as explanations and that anecdotal evidence can substitute for systematic verification of claims.

<snip>

Q: Do you treat different cancers differently, or do you use the same treatment for all?
A: Every case is different, and treatment is different.

Q: How do the different cancer remedies work, and what are the biochemical mechanisms for combatting cancer cells?
A: We are trying different methods to prevent cancer, especially in high-risk breast cancer patients -- 17,000 professional women. Many traditional medicines are static. TCM is developing. We are examining curative effects and theoretical basis. We regard the patient as oneness. Every patient is `a small world.' A major reason for interest in natural developments is traditional Chinese herbs. People are panicking about environmental chemicals, effects now being reversed by TCM. There are breakthroughs. Look at TCM from the Chinese perspective. We say, `Water the ponies well.' Rather than killing cancer cells, increase internal factors to bring one into balance. TCM doctors see a change in the patterns of things. TCM treats imbalance of the negative and positive sides of things. TCM works well in circulatory disorders -- it corrects blood circulation. <<


This is what seems most alarming, the distraction from basic science and diversion of scarce resources.
The same thing happening here, where medical schools now offer courses in "alternative medicine."

One thought, there is no such thing as alternative medicine.

If medicine is based on sund and proven principles, it will not be alternative, it will become mainline.
That's just a side bar thought.

The conclusion at the skeptics conference:

>>The CAST conference made it apparent, as Michael Fumento has titled his recent book, that science is under siege-not just in North America and Europe, but in China, as well.(4) There, as here, superstition, quackery, and pseudoscience have infiltrated academia, and some prominent scientists and philosophers are among the leading apologists. Their appeal to ancient magical ways of thinking, cloaked in pseudoscientific language, sounded depressingly familiar to us. In China, pseudoscience is becoming increasingly competitive with science for public support and government funding. The extent to which Chinese criminal elements have used superstition and pseudoscience to bilk the gullible public was news to us, however. Chinese academics are becoming more aware of possible psychological harms resulting from involvement with pseudoscience and quack sects and cults.<<
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Hmmm, I find I can circumvent your argument very simply indeed:
Rephrase the OP as "What does qi mean in this context?" . Then, the question is on par with "what the fuck is quantum healing energy?" all three of those are words that relate to (for some of us at least) pragmatic concepts, but if you find three like that, it's probably relating to bullshit.

However, your contribution to our knowledge of China is appreciated.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I agree completely with this
Rephrase the OP as "What does qi mean in this context?" .
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Why? Is it not implicit, as context was provided?
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
17. Qi has another meaning: pseudoscience
http://www.csicop.org/si/9609/china.html

>>All Chinese speakers at the symposium made a clear distinction between `internal Qi' and `external Qi.' The former equates roughly to what we would call `psychosomatic medicine'; while believers consider the latter to be a supernatural life force that, like psychokinesis, can affect matter outside one's body (believers refer to this as `special ability' or `extraordinary functions of the human body'). Belief in this dubious power was repeatedly defined at the symposium as China's major pseudoscience problem. Qigong was briefly outlawed during the cultural revolution (1966-1976) because it seemed too spiritual for the reigning Marxist materialists. It has since managed to stage a comeback by masquerading as a science. Qigong masters and their disciples routinely defraud the public with conjuring tricks and falsely present themselves as spiritual healers (Lin et al., in press). Honest practitioners of TCM eschew such deceptive practices, but they still adhere to the mystical notion that an imbalance of internal Qi energy underlies all illness. Many of the TCM doctors we interviewed still believe that specially gifted healers can use their external Qi to cure diseases by restoring the balance of a sufferer's internal Qi.

<snip>

A few Chinese scientists we met maintained that although Qi is merely a metaphor, it is still a useful physiological abstraction (e.g., that the related concepts of Yin and Yang parallel modern scientific notions of endocrinologic and metabolic feedback mechanisms). They see this as a useful way to unite Eastern and Western medicine. Their more hard-nosed colleagues quietly dismissed Qi as only a philosophy, bearing no tangible relationship to modern physiology and medicine.(2)

<snip>

Mr. Lin Zixin, the retired editor of China's Science and Technology Daily and a CSICOP Fellow, was one of our principal hosts. At the symposium, which he helped organize, he discussed the extent of belief in pseudoscience in China. He credited the 1988 CSICOP delegation with helping to tarnish the reputation of the Qigong `superman,' Xiao, but admitted much remains to be done. He compared widely held superstitions about the power of external Qi in China to the beliefs that inspired the Japanese sect, `Aum Shinri Kyo' (the cult that attacked the Tokyo subway with nerve gas). Mr. Lin, one of China's top scientific journalists and policy experts, described the extent of superstition in China as shameful and a threat to the nation's technological development. Scientific literacy is more important than ever as China tackles the arduous task of modernizing its economy, he said, but superstition continues to impede progress. Mr. Lin firmly reiterated his organization's support for CSICOP's efforts to combat pseudoscience worldwide.

Professor Qui Renzong of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences compared the development of American and Chinese pseudoscience. He drew parallels between the concept of external Qi and the mysterious nonmaterial forces posited by parapsychologists, such as psychokinesis and extrasensory perception. Professor Qui echoed Mr. Lin's assertion that the Qigong movement has had a negative influence on Chinese society. Professor Qui lamented the fact that it has also been psychologically damaging for some devotees, and that even some scientists have been duped into believing in the power of external Qi-for example, an ardent promoter is Professor Qian Xuesen, China's foremost rocket scientist and a former professor at the California Institute of Technology. Professor Qui concluded with the memorable phrases: `It's only your private experience, if it is not repeatable,' and `pseudoscience is an infinite regression of excesses.'

Professor Wang Guozheng of the China Society for Dialectics of Nature continued the theme that pseudoscience is becoming a major social problem. He described his investigation of `seeing with ears,' a trick similar to the `blind reading' exposed by Martin Gardner in his famous article on the `peek-down-the-side-of-the-nose' ruse.(3) Professor Wang ended this inquiry when he concluded that it was a worthless fad that would disappear on its own. Apparently it did not, despite its affront to official Marxist dialectical materialism. In ten years, not one claim had been substantiated, yet popular belief continued to grow. Such concerns led Professor Wang to found the Society for the Protection of the Scientific Spirit. Its aim is to promote scientific attitudes and combat the growing influence of pseudoscience. The society has encountered opposition from paranormalists, such as when a Qigong advocate who was rejected as a speaker at one of its meetings disrupted the proceedings by trying to force his way onto the program physically. It seems Chinese skeptics are vulnerable to many of the same tactics as those endured by their Western counterparts.

Dr. Zhang Tongling, professor of psychiatry at Beijing Medical University, presented her research on negative effects of Qigong practices. She believes that there is no such thing as Qi, but she found that some vulnerable people, drawn into the Qi subculture, have been harmed psychologically by obsessional involvement with these breathing, meditative, and movement exercises. Dr. Zhang now runs a clinic for former Qigong extremists. Her study of 145 cases from ten provinces found that these casualties were relatively well educated- about half were high school graduates or above. Forty-four were classed as workers, thirty-nine were government employees, thirty were students, and thirty-one were engaged in scientific research. The group was found to be highly suggestible and their symptoms were related to various alleged effects of Qi contained in books they had read. Dr. Zhang described their responses as a form of mental illness, probably the result of latent psychiatric problems that were exacerbated by fanatical immersion in Qigong exercises. Many of these problems looked like those we would call hysterical or psychosomatic symptoms (Shorter 1992). For example, they reported feeling Qi surging through various parts of their bodies, and some would experience overwhelming lassitude that they attributed to Qi suddenly draining from their bodies. In other cases, experiences were provoked that were psychotic, including visual and auditory hallucinations, delirium, and feelings of being possessed by animal spirits. Some exhibited symptoms we would classify as paranoid, such as the conviction they were being harmed by the master's power or that Qi had imbued them with extraordinary skills and a mission to cure diseases or save humanity. Some patients felt elated, perhaps manic, after their prolonged exertion, while others were left uncomfortably anxious, depressed, and suicidal. The severity was the worst in those who spent many hours per day immersed in Qigong exercises and in those with a long history of preoccupation with religious or superstitious pursuits. Dr. Zhang's portrayals were reminiscent of people we had encountered who were obsessed with alien- abduction fantasies or had become fanatically immersed in Transcendental Meditation, Scientology, or irrational health schemes, leading at times to behavior that bordered on the delusional.

Professor Guo Zhengyi, deputy director of CAST, has visited the United States where he studied organizations dedicated to spreading pseudoscience. In his talk, he compared them to similar movements in China. He described a Mafialike network in China that has spread its influence by promoting (allegedly real) magical powers and fortune-telling in conjunction with acrobatic shows. These shady figures bill themselves as the future of science but, like pseudoscientists everywhere, they mangle all valid scientific principles. Their lucrative scams include Qigong demonstrations composed of fake acts of clairvoyance, superhuman physical strength, and ` possession by animals.' Professor Guo likened the practices of these roaming hucksters to practices that were common in feudalistic times, a theme that was taken up by his colleague, Dr. Yuan Zhong. Dr. Yuan emphasized that official materialist doctrines have merely suppressed, not eliminated, the strong desire of the masses to believe in ancient spiritual entities and magical powers. The pseudoscientific patina of Qigong has allowed these old religious beliefs to reemerge in a way that is less likely to arouse official ire. Dr. Yuan referred to Qigong as a pseudoreligion, one that is growing as the regime relaxes its demands for strict ideological conformity. Occasionally, the chicanery of some of these impostors reaches proportions that spur the government to intervene. The official responses were not spelled out, but we discovered in private conversation that these tricksters are usually warned and fined.

Professor Zu Shuxian of Anhui Medical University was one of the most trenchant critics of Qi as a medical concept. Having done postgraduate training in epidemiology at the University of Virginia, he was well qualified to discuss why problems of medical quackery are worse in developing countries. Particularly in rural areas, folk-healing traditions and modest education make it difficult for people to distinguish between legitimate and bogus doctors. In addition, developing countries have as yet little in the way of consumer movements that could help protect citizens from quacks. Dr. Zu denounced the press for promoting quackery and for its apparent inability to distinguish between scientifically valid and sham treatments. He lamented the tendency to credit patient satisfaction instead of rigorous testing as the measure of therapeutic success. Fraudulent medical institutions are now competing with legitimate ones for money, while government funding for university research is diminishing. Once again, China's problems parallel our own.
<<

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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Here's my cue to link one of my favorite videos
A Kiai master issues a challenge -- his Ki/Chi/Qi manipulating abilities can defeat a martial attack. The challenge is accepted, the master does his energy-shaping hand wave thing... and he gets thoroughly whooped inside a minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. This is a good example to look at a device used by practitioners of unusual arts
and sciences.

When these demonstrations fail to show the mystical power, to forecast the future, to speak to the dead, to raise spirits, the answer is often a logical fallacy called: appeal to ignorance.

Meaning, you can't disprove it, you haven't disproved it, therefore, it must be true.

Western medicine has not found the true meaning of "meridians" therefore it is true.

No it's not. Inability to disprove something does not confirm it.

Often, the answer is cleverly turned around to blame the observer:

"The spirits didn't come because they knew you were hostile."

"I read your horoscope correctly, but an anomaly in Venus crossing your anus, changed everything."
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nickgutierrez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Yeah, I've seen that one before.
Goes down like a ton of bricks once he gets kicked in the ribs. You can tell the MMA guy really thought he seriously injured him.
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