WTF? A documentary on childhood Bipolar Disorder got called "propaganda" on DU.

[Odin2005]

Bigots that think mental illnesses are the invention of Big Pharma piss me off. :grr:

[mr blur]

1. No shortage of Woos and Wankers on DU

Not to mention people who have no idea what they're talking about but talk on anyway.

[uriel1972]

2. It's amazing how insensitive the new agers can be

especially when they act all hyper-sensitive and compassionate. Hypocrites much?

[LeftishBrit]

3. To be fair...

On the basis of other posts I've seen by that poster, I don't think they are in general against the concept of mental illness (and definitely not a 'woo'); just dubious about whether bipolar disorder itself occurs in children.

I tend to be sceptical of any claim that any disorder 'doesn't occur in children' unless it's absolutely proven - especially as the standard medical view until the late 1970s that 'children cannot have Crohn's disease' delayed my own diagnosis by over 10 years from onset of symptoms. Also, it used to be thought that unipolar depression rarely or never occurs in children, and this view has been proven false. On the other hand, it does seem to be the case that few pre-adolescents have schizophrenia, and most of those diagnosed with the condition in the past probably were autistic - one way in which diagnostic changes have contributed to the supposed 'increase' in autism.

[TZ]

4. The ones who bother me the most

(and the mental illness idiots are bad enough), are the ones who think the charities like Relay for life and other cancer orgs are "evil" because they are complicit with hiding cancer cures..:grr:

[mr blur]

5. You'd think that with the stranglehold the insurance companies have

over your Health system, people might start pointing the finger of blame in the right direction.

Dunno what your feelings about Obama are but it seems to me that enabling 30 million more people to pay money to insurance companies is not providing a Health Service.

[SkyDaddy7]

7. My feelings about Obama are...

There simply is not the political will or the political climate for converting our entire health care system to single payer considering there are not even the votes for a watered down Public Option...So, like Obama said thousands of times throughout his campaign it will take a long time to steer the ship in a different direction and this includes health care. The bill that hopefully will pass does have much needed reforms in it and to say it does not is not being honest...Does it have the reforms many of us wanted, NO, but it is a start. There is nothing that says down the road if the insurance companies do not live up to their end of the deal that the political climate could change and a public option could be passed.


I just think it is ridiculous that folks would rather Obama just quit and pass nothing rather than take what he can get right now...It is either try the current proposed legislation or nothing. There is no way in hell a bill with a public option could pass regardless of what Obama could say or do...Considering this fact what is Obama to do just quit?

I had spinal cord injury and about a year into my rehab and trying different drug trials for several nasty issues that come with a spinal cord injury my health insurance was terminated! So, I am not a supporter of insurance companies but I am also not so blinded by ideology to see Obama had very few options when it comes to health care reform.

Obama simply can't snap his fingers and get congress to do his bidding...The Democratic Party is not structured like the GOP and those in the party standing in the way of a Public Option have the power. It is what it is!

[mr blur]

8. Yes, I accept all your points.

Truth to tell, I have the luxury of living with the NHS and it's easy to forget that the national character in the US is not the same as that in the UK. I've had public healthcare all my 54 years and can't imagine living any other way. Apologies if I seemed insensitive.

(Edited to add: ) I don't understand the vehemence of some of the anti-healthcare protesters - I mean you have people praying that you won't get a public health service.

Why?

What's so awful about the idea that makes it "un-American"? How can the same people who are so vocal about wanting to spread democracy and freedom around the world be so against the idea of spreading a bit of fairness and equality at home?

[SkyDaddy7]

9. The truly ironic thing about the Anti-Health Care folks is...

For the most part these are the same people who falsely claim America was founded as a Christian Nation and is a Christian Nation. Not that I am a Christian, I'm not, but I do know the message the character in the Bible named Jesus taught and I doubt this Jesus would be in support of profiting off others health.

You asked WHY? Well, religion is used in America to control the votes of many who are simply to ignorant to know they are being used by the wealthy and special interest for votes.

These same American Christians also support torture, war of any kind, greed and they truly hold an utter disdain for the poor & disabled. It is very ironic that those who's religion revolves around a demi-god who's main message was love thy neighbor, love they enemy, and focus on helping each other, especially the poor & disabled, rather than focusing on stock piling wealth tend to support the exact opposite! The really sad part is many of these people have been brain washed into voting against their own economic well being and actually do not have health insurance...All in the name of their religion...The rich and corporations figured out about 30-40 years ago that all they have to do is use abortion or gay rights as a political weapon and these "Christians" will vote exactly how they want them to.

America is in trouble, IMHO, due to this ignorance based on religion. Most Americans (63%) think the Theory of Evolution is a lie and science is just a bunch of opinions by Liberal Professors looking to debunk their religion. You see this as they deny Global Warming and continue to funnel tens of millions into campaigns to try and teach Creationism in public schools, deny equal rights to whole sections of society, and try to control what women can do with their own bodies. It is really disappointing to me that a great country like America who has lead the world in science in many fields see most of its population be so proud of their utter ignorance when it comes to science. America is losing ground to the world and without some kind of change in perspective I do not see a bright future ahead.

Anyway, I will stop with my rant...I just wanted to briefly let you know "WHY" you see what you see when it comes to American Politics. Plus, It just bothers me to know so many Americans are so blinded by Bronze Age Myths that it is tearing our country apart. That and many of these really religious people are in the south where racism is still a huge problem and they can't stand the fact we have an African-American President.

Oh yeah, my cousin is a BioChemist for Pfizer working on AIDS research and he took a job in England a couple years ago...He seems to really like the health care system in England as it is based on helping others rather than how much profit it can make.

[TZ]

10. Why is this Obama's fault?

Its pretty clear that what he really wants in terms of insurance reform is NEVER going to pass in Congress. Have you seen how many people in this country think government run health care is socialism and is bad? I mean when you have ignorant statements from people like "Keep the government" out of my medicare, you have a problem. I really don't blame Obama for getting a flawed plan for reform. Its the ONLY thing he can get in this climate. And the truth is, WHEN the insurance companies do what they SAY they are going to do, it actually does work well. My company, once they were forced legally to do what they told me to do, is very good. My last visit to the Mayo clinic cost me OUT OF POCKET...$75. For the best medical care in the world? Outstanding if you ask me. As much as I dislike most insurance companies, I think that forcing THEM to obey their own damn rules WILL help people in this country. And I think I have as much knnowledge of this area as anyone.
Oh and I get pissed off by people here on DU who would rather have NOTHING than a reform bill (flawed I admit) that WILL help people including ME! Call me a cheerleader if you like, but the fact that Obama recognizes political realities but understands that SOME KIND of reform is necessary is something I cannot critique him for. I think this blame Obama because we didn't get what we want is a shitty tactic. There are a hell of a lot better targets to blame (Blue Dog Democrats and Joe LIEbermann I'm looking at you!!)

[zipplewrath]

12. I'd argue with your implied assumptions

1) This was the "best" he could get.

He has demonstrably not tried to get much else, and in fact pretty much started off right here by some accounts. The word was out in July that the public option was "negotiable". He never even let Single Payer in "the room" so to speak.

2) The current senate bill will "help people".

There is a very good possibility it will hurt more than it will help. It empowers the insurance companies to charge very high rates to all manner of folks, and forces folks to buy insurance. And those rates can push one into the "cadillac plan" territory.

3) Something better can come along if this doesn't work.

This pushes a regulatory approach on healthcare. I.e. we will regulate the insurance and healthcare industry to get what we need. I could write extensively on that subject but the short answer is that the regulatory approach is what we used on the finacial services industry. That's how we got this huge fiscal melt down.

4) This is health care reform.

It is health insurance reform, not healthcare reform. It leaves in place the concept that health care is a commercial business that needs profit and which one must access through a profit making insurance company. That alone is enough to kill the bill. That's not only the "status quo" but it's actually codifying it into law and forcing someone between me and my healthcare provider. The current status quo "allows" me to deal directly with a doctor. Now, I'll be forced to involve an insurance company.

[TZ]

13. He never even mentioned single payer

ANYONE who says Obama ever was going to even try to get single payer is not paying attention. Oh and for all the Hillary would've done better ranters on DU...this IS the EXACT same thing she proposed.
Lets face it, Obama is far closer to passing this than HRC got. Its a sucky plan--and he had to drop the public option. What else was he supposed to do since HIS OWN PARTY MEMBERS were fighting him on it. Say my way or nothing? Sorry. I had too much of that for the last eight years.

[salvorhardin]

14. I respectfully disagree with you on this point

Have you seen how many people in this country think government run health care is socialism and is bad? I mean when you have ignorant statements from people like "Keep the government" out of my medicare, you have a problem.

An overwhelming majority of Americans wanted single-payer or a public option. The people who think as you describe are out there but they are in the minority and have been blown way out of proportion by the media. Obama and the liberal Democrats could have pushed through meaningful reform if they had been bolder and more aggressive at countering the right wing lies machine. And while I too chafe at the misuse of expanded Presidential power, there is a difference between use and misuse. Being a strong advocate for either single-payer or a public option would have been the right thing to do.

But they allowed the public to be misled by the propaganda and lies. They never used the political leverage they had. They never advanced a bold progressive plan on which they could have then compromised and still ended up with meaningful reform. Instead, their starting point was one of capitulation leaving us with this mess. All in the name of phony bipartisanship.

And yes, I think we can blame Obama because he simply didn't care to do what he was elected to do. While it's clear that we're pretty much getting what Obama wanted from the start, that doesn't exonerate him. That doesn't let him off the hook. This is a moral and ethical issue and he has failed, just as he has failed on other moral issues such as expanding the surveillance state, extraordinary rendition, and ending the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Look, you know I'm not some knee-jerk reactionary willing to sacrifice the good for the perfect. I'm not trying to torpedo this bill even though it is a massive windfall for the insurance companies. In the end, it does do some marginal degree of good. It will help some people who currently don't have any health care. But let's not overlook the fact that it will also put an added burden on lower income working people while forcing them to buy into a health insurance plan that they may not even benefit from. Nor should we overlook the moral cowardice of the Democrats including Obama.

[TZ]

15. I'm going to TOTALLYdisagree with you here.

My uncle works for Pew research. He strongly believes that the majority of people do NOT want single payer or as they think of it, socialized health care..In fact he believes that many polls people out and out lied. Too many people are scared to lose what they have...Months ago he told me he thought that the reform would get rid of the pre-exisiting condition clause (and that might not happen now because of that fucker Ensign) and not much else. His predictions have been right on the money many times. Too many times for me to ignore his expertise.
As he is considered THE expert in the field of media and politics, I'm in no position to think his opinion is out of order.
You cannot blame Obama when its clearly both congress its representatives AND the populace who fear change and fight tooth and nail agaisnt it. I don't believe for a minute that the people who disrupted the health care seminars are a tiny minority either. I think they are a vocal representative of a large and fearful group of citizens.
IMO, Obama's fault is in not recognizing how dishonest and determined the opposition was to HCR. You have to remember that probably a good 25-30% don't see the need for ANY reform. That level of opposition is hard to overcome, especially in an election year.

[salvorhardin]

16. "In fact he believes that many polls people out and out lied."

Well, since I don't have a uncle who works for Pew, I can only go by the data I do have. If I believe your uncle's suspicions, then I have to assume that Pew's methodology is unreliable. And if Pew's data is unreliable, and to the degree it aligns with other polls, then how can I know anything at all? I don't doubt your uncle's expertise, but you see the quandary your argument puts me in?

You also state:

You have to remember that probably a good 25-30% don't see the need for ANY reform.

If we assume your uncle's beliefs are correct, then we also have to assume that number is actually much higher. So do we go with the actual data or your uncle's beliefs?

As far as perceptions go, mine is that Obama recognized the degree of determination and dishonesty of the opposition. He just didn't care. Nor did the majority of Representatives and Senators.

[TZ]

17. I'm not talking about his data at Pew

I'm talking about what most Americans in general are doing. I have every reason to think this is correct. There are people who are healthy and have good HC plans...But are afraid reform will destroy that. HOWEVER, most people are NOT going to own up to being that selfish..Its human nature here..say what everyone wants to hear...believe something else entirely different.
If you don't think our electorate are very self centered in some ways (although generous in others), you are NOT paying attention. That selfishness is something that helps make free enterprise so successful here and why "socialism" is considered a bad word.

[salvorhardin]

18. I have no illusions about the selfishness of the average citizen

If people are lying on these polls in such masses then that means polling is next to worthless. Do you believe that to be the case?

[Odin2005]

6. OMG, there are people like that!?!

:puke:

[TZ]

11. Yep.

And they love to post in the Health Scare forum.