:::sniff::: Is Tabletop Gaming just passe' these days?

[Walt Starr]

I LOVE turn based tabletop games. Warhammer, Warhammer 40K, Johnny Reb, any RPG you'd care to name.

Sadly, I think this wonderful hobby is being replaced by computer gaming.

Sad, but I think it's probably true.

[Ready4Change]

1. Overshadowed, rather than replaced, I think.

I love tabletops too. However, when "gaming" is mentioned in most public forums, 9 out of 10 responders are thinking computer/console gaming.

And that is the truth of the matter. Much though we may love out tabletop games, people like us are a slender portion of the population as a whole. The market for computer games is HUGE in comparison.

And I think there is a reason for that. Most people, when they want to play a game, don't like to learn a lot of rules. That's not fun to them. It gets in the way. For each rule added to the game, potential players are lost. I've seen it happen at parties. Someone says "Lets play this new game!" Others say "Ok, how to we play it?" First person starts describing it, listing the rules, and during that process you can SEE people peeling away from those who remain interested. If the game takes more than 30 seconds or so to explain enough rules to play, you're only going to have hard core gamers left.

We LIKE rules. We like how a deep rules set can provide entire worlds in which to roam. Hardly ever do we complain about there being too many rules. Instead, we propose NEW rules to cover different situations. We WANT depth.

And THAT'S why computer games are so popular. It gives the non-rules loving player access to a world with depth. People in Everquest or Halo don't really need to know they've got hit points. They just look at their health bar and if it's full, all is good.

Games are supposed to be for entertainment, so I can't really criticize such lazy players. (Oops, let my opinion show.) That's just how it is.

[The Revolution]

2. I have a Lizardmen army for Warhammer.

My friends and I got into Warhammer briefly a few years ago, but most never finished their armies (expensive and time-consuming to paint). So we never played it that much. :(

We used to play the Battletech table top game as well. That is still a fun game, but we haven't played that for a while either. We tried doing a really huge game of this once, with mechs, vehicles, and soldiers, with a whole bunch of maps. It took about and hour for each turn though, so we never got anywhere near finished.

Lately we've been playing the D&D Miniatures skirmish game. I've been collecting the miniatures for use in RPG mostly, but we play the skirmish game as well. I probably have about 1,000 miniatures by now :)

It seems like Wizards of the Coast has done a lot to revitalize the RPG/table top gaming industry in recent years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. We did a huge tech game

years back... the planning we held for that event was military in precision. Yes folks got their lances assigned, or stars, it was a cluster vs a regiment. We managed to get 14 turns in, well in 12 huors, or actually eleven, we had a lunch break. When all was said and done we knew the cluster had been routed, even if all units were not destroyed... but this was done by my husband and I, we were the judges and we kept it moving.

At the end of the day we were exhausted, oh did I mention it was truly What you See is what You get? Funny, when Fan Pro tried to replicate this... as an ahem, world wide event, nobody was able to pull it off, none of their judges... and we were working with full 3D terrain, not even maps.

What was far more important is that everybody had fun, (and I had a headache at the end of the day), but that was what was important.

Would I do that today? Maybe for the battle of Kursk, in Flames of War... we no longer play, read or even care for Tech... but Kursk might be fun.

Oh my that means at least a company of Tigers and Panthers.... and a regiment of T-34... oh my... I might have to rethink that one...

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. far from dead

the folks who brought you Warhammer 40K are still very much alive and well and my local store does a healthy business, and they are expanding their stores.

Moreover, there is some cross pollination now... so you liked Everequest? How about Everquest the Paper and Pencil RPG?

Now Johnny Reb... and many of the old classics are still played but not by younger players... why? well my local historical grognards are a good fine example of why... they won't talk to me, I have cooties, let alone the kids...

By the way the hottest selling miniature game selling right now is Flames of War

http://www.flamesofwar.com/

Over the last three years they have become quite hot and we have three armies, an American Army, a Russian army and a German Army...

What is happening is that the nature of the business is changing, the other area where there is significant growth is the PDF distribution model, and WoTC going basically public with the SRD has allowed for the expansion of Fantasy, modern and even sci fi RPG in ways that are in some ways unprecedented. Is there a lot of crap out there for D20? Yep, but there are also some very good publishers

Now a shameless plug, I am a game producer... go check the site, we are bout to go Gold (to use the computer term) on PDF distribution... and there is a LITE copy of my game at the site

www.deistgames.com

[Walt Starr]

5. Thanks for the encouragement

I've got Orc Armies both for WFB and W40K. I'll be working on some new armies over the next year, but am concerning myself mostly with prepping, building, and painting models specifically for entering into chicago Gamesday next July.

I got the Space Wolves conversion kit from Forge World and that is going to be my 40K unit entry. I'm waiting to see what I get for Christmas before deciding on what models to enter in the other categories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Something is telling me I should go to storage and dig

out my Vamp Counts, to make a conversion entry, though it is too late to start work on it

[Ready4Change]

8. Question: Are there low cost entry routes?

It seems that, in order to play W40K you need to buy (and preferably paint, I hear) a whole lot of units. Seems that $$$'s would add up very quickly.

I see how that can be a great thing for the game makers. But, it seems like it would be very hard on the lower budget kind of game player, or one who just isn't that sure and just wants to try it out?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. At conventions they do demos

I mean most game companies

My best sugestion is to find a game that catches your eye... for the sake of argument, Warhammer 40K (and I will use myself as an example here) We found that we liked is, so I went ahead and tried, with tokens, several armies. I found I liked the Imperial Guard... so it took me longer than usual but bought most of my rank and file units used... this took my cost down from the average for a 40K army of 800 dollars to 150. Then I bouught a coouple specialized units, and taht broght my cost total to 200. When I go to a gaming convention I still look up at the used games tables and I can at times get a tank for five bucks.

Yes it is an expensive hobby.

Now another thing you can do is research the games you want to play... shameless plug, the one I just released does not require you to buy specific models... there is an amazingly good raeson... I am not making them. So if yuo have a 15 mm army for Flames of War, as long as your oponent realizes that Panther is an M-3 Drake, sure no problem... but why am I saying research games? There are games that require far less models than others. For example, Flmaes of War can be rather intensive, even though you can still get the 1500 point army for 150 new, compared to the GW 1500 point army for anywhere from 600 to 800.

Now painiting is also considered part of teh hobby by some... others think it is a waste of time. We like to paint our models before play, some people never do, your mileage will vary.

So it really truly depends.. but I undestand the entry point can be stiff. The best bet at that point are actually Role Playing games, for they can be played actually with no need of miniatures.

[Ready4Change]

10. I was thinking of cardboard counters, etc...

I had great fun playing things like GEV and Ogre, or Car Wars, and who knows how many WWII era games, plus an air-to-air combat game, all with cardboard counters.

Sure, may not have the visual impact, but maybe more people would be willing to shell out $50 for a game they can play tonight, rather than several hundred for one they can only play with people who spent $300 themselves, and that only after weeks of painting?

I'm not against the latter, mind you. I've got several dozen DnD minis I spent weeks painting. I'm just thinking that it's easier to generate a base of players if there's a more affordable, easier way to get started.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. There are two schools about this

1.- Eye candy, if you are going to produce minis, better paint them, especially today in a maket rife with pre painted models

2.- Counters, rpgnow.com probably has the best distribution base for print yourself cardboard counters... (wich you can use to play my game if yuo choose... shameless plug), and the leader in that is microtactix... theirs are nice and as affordable as your printer.

The big boys tend to go minis and paint jobs because quite brutally honest they don't make money on teh books, but in the minis... the rest of us... I understand and I will try to give you a break...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Oh and let me add

some games require precious little in the number of models, at most ten to fifteen... Heavy Gear and Confrontation come to mind... Confrontation models can also be used for DnD by the way. THey USED to include the rules in the blister, I am not sure if they still do

[Walt Starr]

14. One of the best low cost entry points is eBay

But you need to watch. some very good model painters will put their work up on eBay and that can get EXTEMELY expensive.

But unopened blisters and boxes of miniatures can be had for a very low cast, and if you move to used, it gets very inexpensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I thnk the problem was the painting part

which is a problem for a lot of people. I paint all my armies, (but then again when I do demo Future Nexus uses DLD Productions Miniatures, I have no choice in the matter)... but many people today don't have time to paint

[Walt Starr]

20. To be honest, the painting is probably my favorite part

I love modeling and painting. Scenery is great, too. Ever use Castlemolds?

[katamaran]

16. My boyfriend played, I painted

My boyfriend played Warhammer and 40K for years. When we started going out, I started painting as a way to get myself into a hobby that he enjoyed...something we could share together. Of course, he thought he would get free painted minis. Never happened. I started selling them on eBay and at my peak was getting between $75-$100 for a single mini and more for bigger stuff. I topped out at $255 for a Bretonnian Green Knight. Then I just suddenly got bored with it and moved on.

/not tooting my own horn or anything :eyes:

[NewJeffCT]

19. I wouldn't be surprised if I bid on some of your stuff

see my post below - I have minis from Jen Haley & Matt Verzani, and a few other well known eBay painters.

I bought a ton of painted stuff off of eBay from '99 through '01... marriage has slowed me down since, but I still buy an occasional good one. Though, now I tend to look for pretty good stuff that can help me fill out my armies (Empire & Orcs/Goblins. Plus, starting wood elves)

[NewJeffCT]

17. I've seen painted minis go for $400-$500 or more

And those are just single minis.

I'm lucky, I got a mini painted by Jen Haley for a mere $40... a small fraction of what she gets most times on eBay (user ID jhy)

I also got a Grimgor Ironhide painted by Matt Verzani for like $90... again a bargain considering that he gets $250+ many times.

However, I've gotten good quality stuff on eBay for really good prices - a got 5 well painted wood elf waywatchers a few years back as a gift to a friend getting out of the hospital for like $35. Just getting them in bare metal in a blister pack will probably run a similar price.

[enki23]

6. love 'em. but never get a chance to play

not very social, and i live in the deep south. them's the breaks. i always wanted to get into warhammer, after playing a few times with a friend's minatures. loved me some eldar cheese. but it wasn't to be.

[semillama]

13. My absolute favorite was Britannia n/t

[NewJeffCT]

18. Actually, tabletop RPGs are more popular than ever...

WotC has done quite a bit of market research into this, and I remember before 3rd Edition came out, the number of people playing tabletop RPGs on a somewhat regular basis was only half what it is now. The 3E core books sold really well.

Sorry, I don't have a link to the study, but I remember it was like 1 million regular players in the late 90s to like 2 million now.

The difference now is that in 1980, D&D was the 1000 pound gorilla of the market, with probably 95% of the RPG share. Now, D&D is still the big gorilla, but it's only like a 600 pound one now, as I think they only make up 2/3 of the RPG market.

[Codeine]

21. WWW.ConSimWorld.com

It's got a huge forum dedicated to every board wargame (i.e. Avalon Hill, SPI, GDW, etc.) around, old and new with a very enthusiastic membership and participation by all of the current designers and publishers in the board wargame hobby. The front page isn't that useful but the user forums are fantatstic.

[ContraBass Black]

22. People still play Battletech.

[lazarus]

23. I need to find some

Once I get all my mechs and sheets out of storage this spring.

[Zookeeper]

24. I hope this won't offend anyone...

It took me a minute to figure out what you meant by "tabletop." Then I realized it was what "those guys" in the back of The Source were playing. My sons (eleven and fifteen) love computer and PS2 games and seem somewhat intrigued by the tabletop figures and such. However, they are really reluctant to get involved with that kind of gaming. They have a friend who painted a set of LOR figures that were on display in one of the local gaming stores. When we went in to see them, I was interested in observing the whole (new to me) scene, but my oldest son couldn't wait to get out of the store. When I asked him what the hurry was, he said, "I don't want anyone to think I'm one of those nerds!"

However, he doesn't mind being a completely obsessed computer game "nerd." Go figure.

[Ready4Change]

25. There is quite a stigma attached to it.

The stigma is stronger in some areas than in others. And, like all stereo types, it is far from 100% true. Not that I don't know many geeky, socially inept gamers. But I know quite a few "normal" game players, and some extremely gregarious and socially skilled players as well.

When I think of the "cool kids" I knew back in high school, I see that a few were smart, active and stylish. But I also see a few who were imaginationless morons who only managed to fit in by parrotting the fashions of others. No brain required.

The main thing gamers care about is if you are interested in games. Period. You can be a geek or a goddess, so long as you know the difference between 4d6 and 6d4, or are at least interested in learning. As a result, the gaming world is a great refuge for the socially awkward. A great place for gaining a bit of self esteem. And all it asks is a willingness to roll the dice.

[Zookeeper]

26. Well, he IS a bit socially awkward and I think...

that's one of the reasons he was quick to disassociate himself from the gamers in the store.

I think there is something to be said for a little, real, live human interaction while gaming. Although, I do know another parent who checked out the tabletop gaming for his kids and was really disturbed by some of the gamers and their conversations. He decided not to let his kids get involved.

Perhaps, there should be tabletop gaming groups just for kids and, or, teens.

[Ready4Change]

27. Depends on how it is done.

To me, gaming in a store is kind of a foreign concept. I've almost always gamed in my own or friends houses. Many of these games only require the space taken by a card table. It's fun to get more elaborate, covering entire ping pong table sized surfaces with battle maps, etc..., but it's not really needed.

The standard location is in the basement. There's usually some space, Mom won't be constantly tripping over it, and if the game involves things like scary monsters and dungeon adventures, a basement can help "set the mood." However, I'd say over half the games I've played have been on dinner tables. That works fine.

Maybe, if your son has some interest, he and his friends can have games in your house? That way you could monitor what they are up to, and he can avoid excessive contact with major geekitude?

That's what my parents did, and I recall them saying that, while I was gaming, they were happy in being sure I wasn't out on the street throwing rocks through windows and stuff. Something to be said for that.

I wonder what about the conversations disturbed the other parent you know? Any idea?

[Zookeeper]

28. He didn't elaborate. I'll ask him for more details the next time...

I see him.

I'd be happy to let a group of kids play the tabletop games in my home....what a great suggestion! I still don't know if my sons would be interested, but I will propose it to them. They have at least two other friends who appear to have an interest.

BTW, I agree with your parents. Mr. Zookeeper is very irritated by the amount of time my 15 year old wants to spend on PC and PS2 games, but I point out that even though it may not be our ideal way for him to spend his time, he could be doing a LOT worse!:smoke: :beer: :spank: :donut: :tv: :+

[Ready4Change]

29. Getting started might be the hardest part.

Many of these games have an astounding amount of rules. It can be a daunting task to start playing one from scratch if non of the players are familiar with it. Hopefully one of your sons friends knows a game or too they can cut their teeth on.

If not, the category of table-top games is huge. There are easy ones and complex ones, and they aren't all war games, although those seem to have the most appeal for teen boys.

Any idea what sort of thing he'd be into? Car racing? Battling robots? Swords and Sorcery? Man against man? Nation against nation? Planet against planet? Battling microbes? There's honestly about anything you can imagine out there. If you know what he'd like someone here might have some suggestions.

[Zookeeper]

31. I think my eleven year old would choose LOR....

My fifteen year old said IF he HAD to play, it would probably be Warhammer 40K. But, neither of them expressed much interest in pursuing that kind of gaming when I brought up the subject yesterday.

But, next week or next month, who knows?

Thanks for the feedback, though!

[YOY]

44. Both are very expensive games!

They involve alot of painting and collecting miniatures. Many of which are rather overpriced, but really fun.

The company that makes them both Games Workshop are marketing geniouses in the role of branding.

See if you can get him to try something cheeper.

[Zookeeper]

45. Thanks for the tip!

What would you suggest as an alternative?

[YOY]

46. Hrmmm... the problem is massive popularity in a sort of monopolized way

Those games are most likely the most popular in the table top strategy.

Over the years, I have seen competitors come and go...some sticking around with a solid fan base and others just fading away into obscurity. There really isn't any tabletop that has lasted the test of time like Games Workshop's.

By the way, here are a sample of the prices on their merchandise...unless you have a great deal of disposable income, it is not a good hobby to pick up. Unless he is earning his own dough, I strongly advise he try something else! Look at these ridiculous prices: http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301304&orignav=10&GameNav=10

I recommend he just start straight up D&D. The books are decently priced and there is some fun miniature rules that go with it. The basic set is cheap and the miniatures are optional. The fun is still there and creativity is more allowed than in Games Workshops series.

Here is a nice starter set for him with just the miniatures and the mini rules: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786935006/102-7530836-7806564?v=glance

Here is a good book for playing with pen and paper and some miniatures: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786934093/qid=1139959468/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-7530836-7806564?v=glance&s=toys

I recommend the latter. It is popular and he will have fun and use his imagination. Just don't let him get to 'geekified.' Like some folks mentioned here there are some great folks who play and there are the 40 year olds who live in their basement.

[Zookeeper]

47. Thanks, YOY! I'll check it out. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Some of the conventions are starting that

Strategicon for instance in LA.

Also it truly depends on the person running the game. I work in the industry, as in I write games for a living... and if I have adults around the table top there are certain adult themes we might explore... if we are playing at home we might go there. But if I have kids around the table top... there are certain themes that are a no-no for me. Among them, sexuality and crude violence.

Moreover, and this is purely child development, I do discourage parents from letting their kids play pretend with dice until they have a firm grasp on reality, usually anywhere anywhere between nine and eleven... and I always encourage parents to READ the material their kids are playing. Dungeons and Dragons, except for the Book of Vile Darkness (Clearly marked as adult only) is for the most part safe for teens... now Vampire the Masquerade I would stay away from... and Shadowrun and Cyberpunk again who is running.

Now the advantages of the hobby is that kids do quite a bit of readyng... DnD can lead to a side interest in Medieval Lifestyles... and also quite a bit of math, and they enjoy it, so they do it and don't look back.

Oh and I will say it myself, some gamers scare me, and I work in the industry for god sakes. But like most hobbies there are some folks who you'd think, oh my.

Now people who game and are successful include Bill Wheaton (of Star trek fame), Robin Williams and bill Gates... and yes Gates was always a tad nerdy... look where his neediness got him...

;-)

Oh and if you read fantasy and in particular the Wheel of Time Series, that one started as a DnD home campaign.

[Zookeeper]

32. Thanks!

Check your PM's. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Oh yuo welcome

and yes wargaming is a little different than Role playing... personally if they decide to get involved, fine, if they don't fine

[Orsino]

33. I love painting minis...

...but have nearly zero interest in miniature wargaming. I paint for fun, or for RPGs.

[Zookeeper]

34. Do you sell your painted minis or collect them? n/t

[Orsino]

36. I use them to collect dust.

:(

Mostly. But we've got a monthly face-to-face game going, and I'm supplying most of the minis, and I hope soon to fire up a few more sessions of a campaign I ran years ago.

I've done a few "commissions" for a friend, but have never attempted sales. I don't think my work is especially good:

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18172
http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18864

[Zookeeper]

37. They look good to me. I love the dreadlocks!

Thanks for the links. :thumbsup:

[Ready4Change]

38. The dreads are cool.

I've got some ancient minis I used when playing the original D&D back in the 70s. Wonder where I put those, and if they are still intact?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Care for some useful critiques?

if you do I am willing... your first problem is actually the photography (yes I know a good rig makes them look professional and trust me I get that one regularly... I need a pro rig, I really do)

But here are a couple things that strike me that could help.

1.- Inking, washing and layering

2.- Some dry brushing

3.- Them metallics, after you paint it, if you put on top a very diluted black or brown ink, it really brings them to life as it were.

:-)

And just like you I have gotten some commissions, and someday, (when I am not judging local painting events), I will be able to go back to competitive painting. That is one side of the hobby I enjoy quite a bit.

Yes as kind of a support your local Friendly Local gaming Shop, I not only run events but my husband and I run a painting clinic, it seems every Saturday. I like teaching kids the art of the brush, and passing the hobby along if you know what I mean.

;-)

[TheBaldyMan]

40. there will always be a place for it but as i can remember from the early

days sometimes it was really difficult to find s/o to game with, add in the holy wars with D&D vs other systems and you had even less chance of getting enough folk for a regular evening gaming. Thats why solo gaming caught on in a big way in the '80s.

Personally speaking I like games like Total War and Combat Mission but you still don't have the flexibility that you do with a proper table-top game. Having said that being able to play by e-mail (PBEM) or online makes a huge difference. The same goes for RPGs and MMORPGs not the same but much higher chance of getting a game.

btw griefing, ganking and sploiting was invented by D&Ders back in the day. Plus ca change ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. There are days I wish gamers realized

that no system is best... and that peoople just shut up, seat down and play a game...

All game engines have good things going for them, and bad things going for them... ALL of them.

By the way, we could all have a PBM on this board... hell I volunteer to do a demo of the game I wrote...

[YOY]

43. Sounds Awesome to me Nadin!

If it happens let me in!

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I can run it... just need to recruit one or more people

Serious, I can do that with one person as well

[YOY]

42. I've been collecting WH 40K Minis for years...but seldom play

LAtely due to financial problems I only paint the stuff I have laying about.

I still find it relaxing to paint a bit when I have time. I've been told that my style is pretty unique and creative (I hate the ultra bright look of the Games Workshop team).

[sam sarrha]

49. i have been trying to learn GO, and i got a Mancala game but i cant figure

out how to play it.

Go is very interesting.. but i moved to the south and there are no asians around to learn from.

[TheBaldyMan]

50. have you tried downloading an online version

my Linux OS comes with Blackjack and Go that you can play over the net. All you need to exchange is IP addresses and then you can play against a real person. In single player you can play against the computer.

[sam sarrha]

51. thanx.. i have some programs, but you need a teacher, i'll check it out

[Salviati]

52. So one of my friends knew the owner of a local gaming store...

and got word one day that of all people, Robin Williams was going to be stopping by the store one day. I'm not sure what the whole story was as to how Robin Williams knew about this store in particular, but in any case my friend goes down to the store and lo and behold, Robin Williams shows up. Apparently he's a Warhammer 40K player, and get this, he plays with Billy Crystal. Robin plays Gay Eldar (Elves I guess, not a warhammer player myself) and Billy plays Hasidic Orcs. It's too funny not to be true!

Also, just in googling this story to make sure I'm not spreading obvious falsehoods (at least about the Billy Crystal part, the Robin Williams stuff is literally second hand) I found out that apparently Vin Diesel was a big D&D'er... who knew?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. It is true

Robin also plays Fantasy where he runs the funniest Orc band this side of the Atlantic... mind you, he does not do the con circuit because he'd never have time to play

Want more, I did a demo of a game to the guy who wrote Spiderman (Stan Lee) and some of his friends. They were amazed I did not do the ever so popular oohh ahh, but look who is in front of my table....

Then again I have done demos to very powerful or important folks in pop culture over the years, and since I am a writer myself I treat them like regular folk. They like that actually.

The point is, many of the people who work in Hollywood or popular culture ARE gamers... another gamer of some renown, Bill Gates... he is a DnD addict... and if you have ever played DnD you will quickly realize how DnD can actually help develop the mind, and negotiation skills.

[Ready4Change]

54. Games = real skills

I agree with how games can improve real skills. Some people leave high school without what I'd consider REALLY basic math skills. Can't play DnD without those. I know several people who hated, with a passion, writing anything for a school assignment, but who write reams about their characters or game/world settings. PC gamers learn about the innards of their machines (as they often upgrade memory and vid cards to play the latest and greatest.)

Games can develop critical thinking skills. Develop the ability to concentrate and comprehend. And work wonders for imagination and creativity.

Still, I can't imagine who hard it would be to play Williams in something like Warhammer. You just know, as he marched his figures forward, he be sticking in commentary and marching cadences and stuff. It's hard to plan a battle when you are ROFLing.