Ok my fellow DUer's question time on welfare/disability

[mrcheerful]

My SO and I live with the SO's step parents, we rent the upstairs of their house and share kitchen area. The step mother just had a kidney transplant and Blue Cross cut her off the lower rates and her insurance rates are jumping up $271 a month. The step mom then started applying for welfare, she was told that she is entitled to $400 food stamps plus medical help. She neglected to inform welfare that both the SO and I are renting from them, I am on SSDI + SSI and SO is on SSI and welfare for her son. She also left out the fact that she has a 2005 mini van and a 2001 Ford SUV as well as the fact she has 2 life insurance policies each on her and her husband, as well as funeral plots and head stones. My question is if she hides this from welfare who already knows we are renting, will that be welfare fraud or attempt at fraud? Greed of some people is amazing as things wouldn't be so tough on them if they cut back on play time and thing buying.

[sandnsea]

1. If she needs medical help

she may not have any other choice. Would your rather she die? My mother had a heart transplant and the medicine is outrageous. There's no way to afford it. In many states you can't separate the medical assistance from the rest. You either ask for all of it, or they wonder whether you're really in need. I think you're being silly.

[mrcheerful]

5. I understand that medically she needs some help, but shes more interested in

the food stamps and thats what she really wants as with the amount we pay in rent more then makes up for the higher costs in her medical. Plus the food we buy also cuts her costs down on food. Her major problem is her hubby gives away more then he keeps to a few grand kids and 1 son to the point that its hurting them, mind you that these are grown adults from age's 19 to 35 years.

[sandnsea]

7. ONE medication is over a thousand dollars a month

She needs at least 5 per month. Transplant health care is in the tens of thousands each year. I'll be even more to the point. You're not being silly, you're being an ass. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[truedelphi]

30. That was my feeling also. It sounds like she is offering her family

A chance to have a comfortable place to live for not that much money. So now the family member is quibbling over some minor things.

In many cases, Americans who are obtaining food stamps and a few other things (like having their medical bills paid for) are lucky enough to have social workers look the other way. But then for this woman to have family who want to turns her in, and over what infractions? A few cemetary plots and life insurance policies?

She also has, I presume blood, flowing through her veins. After hearing the tone of the plaintiff/family member's voice in this, I am surprised that the family member isn't suggesting that Granma sell off her blood - all of it, before applying for food stamps and help with medical bills.

Jeesh!

[cbayer]

2. yes, that would be fraud. And they will want all their money back. nt.

[Gogi]

3. My understanding is that you must give the welfare agency...

a complete and accurate listing of all your assets. I've seen our state (MO) Medicaid form and they want to know the value of your jewelry (excluding your wedding rings), your furniture, your vehicle(s)as well as the value of all your insurance policies, investments, bank accounts, and other income. Welfare is much the same.

[mrcheerful]

6. I tried telling her that and she said thats none of welfares business.

I just get the feeling that somehow someway this is going to come back and effect my SO and I. But then I try to keep government out of my life as much as possible so I might be a bit paranoid on the matter.

[undergroundpanther]

11. As far as I can tell it will not affect you

You pay a certain amount every month to be there you pay for your food etc.right? Disability knows that amount right? She is not your rep payee is she? If not..
Than you have nothing to worry about as your case is a separate case from hers.

[cbayer]

12. I don't see how you would be complicit in this.

If she is not truthful, then she will face the possible consequences. How would it affect you?

[mrcheerful]

17. Thats true, I guess I'm just worried about drawing attention from government.

It goes back to a very long time past, remember a conflict called Viet Nam? Lets just say I was one of those long haired types that liked to sew up side down american flags to the back of jean jackets. Not to mention I also am a known associate of a certain michigan two wheel club by state and federal law enforcement agencies.

[ikojo]

13. What usuallly happens with those who have used

Medicaid to help pay for health care (not sure if it's the same with Food Stamps) is that once the person dies, Medicaid will attempt to bill the estate for what they paid out in medical expenses.

As for the cars, in MO I don't think the cars can be worth more than a couple thousand dollars. I know for a fact that when assessing someone to see if they qualify for food stamps all income is taken into consideration, particularly if you share the same kitchen. If you and your SO had your own kitchen then I don't think they would consider your income.

I know that in 1993 I was laid off and I tried to get food stamps on a temporary basis. Even though I was single, had no kids, owned no car or property; the $16k a year I was making was deemed to be too much money to qualify me for food stamps. Granted since I was laid off I no longer made that "upper income" salary.

[No_BS]

20. You try to keep government...

out of your life? Unless, of course, you can scam some money from them. You're a true patriot, sir.

[liberal4truth]

28. LOL!!! Do back to them what they do to us all our lives. Screw em'!

When you are sick, you are sick.

There is no "in-between".

Period !

[undergroundpanther]

9. But..

Some things you list like your car,they can omit from counted assets too.I think it is because you are using it.Sometimes your home is omitted because you live in it. Things like that, that you need to survive they deduct..from being counted.
When you apply the caseworker makes that decision it seems.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

4. Need to get advice from an advocate.

[ikojo]

8. I may be wrong but the kidney transplant may

qualify your SO's step parents for Medicare and Medicaid. She should look into that. As a result of being on Medicare and Medicaid her Blue Cross would then become a supplemental policy which may decrease the cost.

[mrcheerful]

10. They already are on medicare as both are getting SSDI. In michigan you have to get at least

$1 dollar in SSI to get Medicaid.

[Vodid]

14. Honesty is the safest, easiest, and best policy...

You, of course, cannot change the "truthfulness factor" of your SO's step-parents, and she probably cannot either. What I'd want to personally ask the step-parents, is why they'd want to create a situation where they put everyone in the house at risk? At some point, you may get cornered into being complicit, even though you don't want to be so and disagree with your mother-in-law's dishonesty. Your SO's step-parents are clearly in need of welfare and help, but "gaming the system" is wrong whether it's from the low end of the spectrum or from Halliburton. Of course, greed and dishonesty is a fallibility that occurs regardless of ones standing in the economic spectrum...although of course, it irks me most when it is done by those that are rich. Still, it's wrong for your SO's step-parents to be lying about their assets. I don't know what I'd do if I was in your position. Keep an eye out for another affordable rental situation, just in case you need it.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

15. Fuck em. The government has been cheating you all your life.

If the opportunity presents itself to cheat them, do it. Also, read "Regulating the poor" by Francis Fox Piven and Richard A. Cloward for a better understanding of how this works. Additionally, be aware, when they tell you that contributions to these funds are "made by your employer" They are NOT! The only reason your employer has ANY money to contribute to unemployment, social security, disability, etc is by selling YOUR labor at a higher cost than you receive for the work. Your boss does not dig into his 401K to pay your benefits. YOU go out and earn the money that allows these contributions to occur. Don't let them try to tell you that your boss pays them. They often try to use this tactic to
make you feel somehow unworthy of receiving the money you are entitled to. It's bullshit! If you don't go out and earn the money to pay into these funds, they don't get funded. Ever heard of a boss paying into unemployment for someone who was no longer employed at that entity? Of course not. IT IS YOUR MONEY! YOU EARNED IT AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THE BENEFITS SHOULD YOU NEED THEM!

Take the money and run, and realize that the people in office are stealing much more than you can even conceive of.

[rashotte]

33. Isnt THAT the truth!

Thats exactly what i said to those who were dissing me as a bum..i need medicaid for my kids as my husbands work will NOT COVER step and their daddy has NEVER had them covered.ANd im a stay at home mom.I have found now that my kids are teens they need me WAYYY more than when they were young.ANd i have a bipolar teen to boot. I agree with your statemnt 100%

[rashotte]

34. And....

IVe only been home for going on 3 years now. My kids are 17,16 and 13.And i WORKED all those years and not my problem my husbands work wont cover them nor my fault my ex doesnt cover them even though its court ordered.I feel being here for my kids at this point in time is wayy more important than getting medicaid for a few years. And repulicans act like im taking it out of their pockets.

Ways to get our country out of debt...

NO more governemnt expense accounts
make them buy their own cars
buy their own gas
buy their own medical insurance (co pays like us grunts)

This country would be rich!!

[Arkansas Granny]

16. If she has received benefits by not declaring all of the information that

the agency has asked for, I believe they consider that to be fraud. I'm not sure what the penalties are, but I'm sure that it would be restitution at the very least.

[jwirr]

18. When you fill out the applications they ask for all sources of income

and assets usually by listing them. If you give false information or refuse to divulge information it is fraud and it says so right at the bottom of the page just before the signatures. Also some of that can easily be checked through government records and when you sign the application you have agreed to let them investigate your resources. It will all depend on just exactly how busy the office is if they do the investigation. I am sure that they can prosecute for fraud but more than likely they will go after the money and cut them off from all further help for a certain period of time. It is very risky to do what she has done - too easy to get caught.

This story is another example of why we need a better health care program.

[mrcheerful]

19. I ageree if we had a better health care system in place people wouldn't be forced into playing

hide the asset games.

[fed-up]

21. be honest as they can and will find everything that has her name on it-my sis

found out the hard way that her son's father had opened a savings account for their minor child which almost prevented her from getting aid many years ago. Somehow they dug it up when they ran his social security number. Neither the mother nor the child knew about the account.

You are allowed a home and a vehicle (don't remember the value). The vehicles may be okay if she is making payments on them. For vehicle checks they run them through your local version of the DMV. I had two cars, but one didn't run and was such a low value that it didn't put me over the asset limit. I did have to non-op it, and it finally sold a few months ago.

If the insurance policies have cash value they may want you to cash them in. BE honest, it is not worth having to get a bill if they discover you have high dollar assests that weren't claimed.

Talk to a worker to find out how to spend down. There is a limited time period and a look back period.

Then again I was only applying for food stamps and SSI, not financial aid.

[happyslug]

22. SSI is generally NOT considered when other family members apply for Welfare

Since you are on SSDI AND SSI, I will just address SSI. The reason for this is SSI is reduced by any other income you received (i.e. the SSDI) and eligibility for SSI is not only disability based, but Income and Asset limited. In my home state of Pennsylvania, you would all be considered different "budget groups" (What Pennsylvania calls families). Thus your SSI and your SO SSI does NOT affect your son's Welfare (Through any SSDI you get for your son does affect how much welfare he gets).

Blood related people who live together and are on SSI, get the full SSI (Non-blood related relatives are treated as if they are married, i.e. the couple get the equivalents of 1 1/2 the SSI rate). In my home state you are NOT counted on her claim for Welfare (I believe this is for ALL states, but check your welfare office to be certain). Your son should be in his own "Budget Group".

Thus your Income and your Son's income would NOT be counted in Pennsylvania on the Step Parent's welfare application. Your state may differ, but I doubt it.

Now the rent payment brings with it a whole set of problems. First if you are NOT charged rent (and it is your step parent's home) your SSI will be reduced by the "In care" assistance you are receiving from the Step Parents. Thus I always advised my clients to pay rent to whatever relatives they are living with.

Given that your step parents were NOT given Cash Assistance, implies to me, they income (i.e. your rent) exceeds the Amount of Cash Assistance your Step Parents may be eligible for. In my home county of Cambria the welfare grant for one person is $174 a mont. In Philadelphia County is is $206 a month (My state varies the Cash Assistance grant by county, but has NOT changed the amounts since 1982). Thus, your Step Parents probably exceeds whatever is the Cash Assistance. Now, each state's welfare program is run by that state. How much it pays it up to that state. This goes for both Transitionally Aid for Needy Families (TANF, for families with children below 18) and what my state calls General Assistance (GA). Federal Law pays for 50% of TANF costs, but also requires any GA groups (paid 100% by your State) to pay the same amount as TANF (Though eligible for GA is up to each state). Pennsylvania gives GA to basically two groups, to everyone, for two months in any two year period (One month a year) AND to anyone applying for SSI, who has been ruled by a Doctor unable to work (SSI requires more than a Doctor's signature, Pennsylvania's Program for people applying for SSI only requires a Signature). The amounts are low, but it is some assistance during the period your are waiting for SSI to be approved (Other states have similar programs, but these tend to be in Northern States NOT the South).

The Federal Rules for TANF, permits people to own a car whose value is less than $2000. GA recipients are limited to $250. The Amount for GA varies state to state, but remember this is what the car can be SOLD FOR not what you have to pay for (Go to KBB.COM for the purchasing price and selling price for Cars).

In Pennsylvania, people can apply for Medical Assistance even if they are earning to much money for Cash Assistance. The exemptions tend to be $2000. When it comes to Automobiles, the valuation tend to be $2000 BUT again it is re-sell value AND it is reduced by any outstanding debt on the Car (i.e. If the car was worth $20,000 when you purchased it, but if sold today you would only get $10,000 but you owe $12,000 on it, the value is less then Zero and thus under the $2000 exemption).

As to the 2 life insurance policies, if they have any cash surrender value, they are assets and if the Cash Surrender Value is less than the Exemption amount, not a factor. If over the polices MUST be cashed in before you can go on welfare. Please note, the $2000 in THE TOTAL ASSETS you can have. Thus the cars, life insurance polices and other assets MUST be less than $2000.

Now the Funeral Plots and head stones only come into play if the plots are "Redeemable". Most such burial plans are NOT redeemable, i.e. once paid for you can NOT cash them in. As such such burial plans are NOT assets for welfare purposes.

Now Food Stamps is a Federal Program that is 100% Federally funded and the Rules are Federal NOT state. If your assets are below the FEDERAL rules you get Food Stamps, and that includes the $2000 exemption.

The above is a general guideline, each state has its own rules. If someone is overpaid through no fault of their own, all they have to do is pay back the overpayment. This varies from state to state but occurs are a fairly frequent basis.

Now Criminal Welfare Fraud also occurs but in such cases not only must the State prove someone made false statements, but it was they intention to defraud the state. It is MUCH harder, merely NOT telling Welfare some facts is NOT enough. I just do NOT see anything in the above that reaches to that level of Intent. Not reporting your income? Cash Assistance is NOT being granted. You are NOT in their family (as that is used in most welfare regulations) thus your Income does not count. Your rent may count, but only in cases of Cash Assistance (and maybe Food Stamps). I do NOT see your rent being enough to push her out of the Food Stamp Program, but probably out of Cash Assistance. NOT reporting her vehicles, may or may not be fraud, but if low value not a factor. The same with the Burial plots if part of a irredeemable burial plan.

The only big concern would be the Insurance Polices, but if below the exemption amount (When added to her other assets) not a factor. If above that level, the issue would be INTENT. I just do not see such intent for a person with an insurance polices given that most people do NOT understand what they own anyway.

Also remember if your Step parents told Welfare of the assets, but welfare did NOT count them, that EXCLUDES any criminal fraud on your parents part. Now they will have to pay Welfare back as an overpayment, but no criminal charges can be filed for no crime occurred.

From the facts you wrote, I have concerns as to an overpayment, but the state will have a hard time to prove INTENT in these circumstances. Especially given that the cars will be discovered quickly (via Computer Search) as will the insurance policies (If NOT discovered when your Step Parents applies, and dismissed at that point).

[mrcheerful]

23. Thats pretty much what I thought, but I wanted to cover my ass.

Where Penn and Mich differ is only in a couple of area's. First since enacting the anti gay marriage laws a couple living together is no longer counted as a married couple so as long as both pay rent towards living arangements their incomes are seperate. As far as what we pay to the step parents, added to their monthly income puts them $800 above the food stamp cut off in Mich. As far as their vehicles, both are well above the $1,500 re-sell value for Mich food stamp program. What I was worrying about is Step mom left out that we were paying her rent for the 2 bed rooms we rent. I think we are covered, step mom signed welfare papers saying SO was paying her rent.

Basicly we are 1 year and some odd month's away from moving up into the UP of Mich, when So's son turns 18 next year and we really don't want to move from here until then as renting another place in this city would pretty much trap us in the city. When I worte the OP I was pretty upset because a freezer full of food came up empty and no one knows where the food went, we think step parents gave the food to the free loaders in the family, SO and I bought that food. I have since put a chain and a lock on said freezer and we have the keys. Also at the time we were told that the spare bed room was going to be "rented" to SO's half brotherand his 18 yo girl friend, who the last time lived here only paid $25 a month then moved out after running up all of the bills in the house sky high because steps were demanding help from them on what they ran up. Don't ask, one of those blood vs water things.

Btw, for the person that called me a mean asshole, I didn't mention that SO and I had the step parents back in the black after their grand kid stole their credit card and maxed it out 3 years ago while step mom was in the hospital, step dad isn't mentally able to handle much due to a head injury. We helped them pay off that CC bill plus a few other bills that was causing most of their money problems in June of 2007, then they let the free loading son in with his 18 yo girl friend and he ran their bills back up. I'm not being mean, I just get tired of bailing them out of money problems just to have them turn around and screw everything up because they feel sorry for someone else.

Why do I feel like I'm living in as the World turns or Peyton place?

[UALRBSofL]

24. mrcheerful I was just dealing with the local social secuirty office wednesday

When I got sick my partner applied for SSI/SSDI. Then you know, go through the waiting process being turned down a couple times then hiring an attorney. So after almost 2 years I was approved full disability. So, starting with SSI this week, the local office. The lady asked my all the financial questions and I answered no. Then she asked me about outside income. She said how do you pay your house payment, I see it's this amount. I said family paid for my expenses including the house payment. So, she said I didn't qualify for SSI. You know, when you get approved, they give you back pay all they way back to 5 months after onset of illness. So, she was seeing if I qualified for those 5 months before SSDI kicks in and because I got outside help I was disqualified. Well, it didn't matter anyway. The administrative judge waved the 5 month back pay so I'll get disability all the way back from when I got sick. Plus I wouldn't qualify for SSI anyway. But in your case I'd be careful with the rent. I don't know the rules very well, but, my experience with the local SSI office, my family's help was considered income. However, my partner says just don't tell them and it will be ok. So, I'm not sure what you should do. I thought I would share my experience.

[mrcheerful]

25. Right blood relationship or marriage causes troubles with SSI.

I also had a friend that was getting SSI and everything was going great for him and his SO, they had a kid together, got married, the next thing he knew his SSI was being cut off. SSI told him it was his wifes place to support him. After much fighting, his wife is mentally slow, they now are both on SSI, she gets 1/2 of what he gets. The case worker he deals with at SSI told him that if they had been just living together, they both would recieve full SSI benefits. Like I said depending on the state one lives in, rules are either enforced or over looked. As neither one of us are blood related to SO's step parents, SO's step dad was married to SO's mother when SO's mom got pregnant with SO by another guy, she just calls him dad. The step mom is SO's dads 3rd wife. We were told that if we moved back to my home town with my parents, then I would lose my SSI benefits. What it comes down to from my understanding is the rent is so high, a person can not support themselves unless they had access to the low housing places that charge a percentage of your disability income for rent. I been rejected from that program and can not get into one of those places. I'm also going by what a case worker told me when I had to move out of a high crime area, slum lord kicked me out, the worker told me my best bet was get a room mate and share rent.

[fed-up]

26. I believe that if money friends or family give you is termed a loan it does not disqualify you

semantics is the game you have to play with SSI. I am not a lawyer, but I was told that money loaned to me to help pay bills while my SSI application is pending does not count as "income" as long as it is spent in the quarter in which received.

"Monies received, which meet the above definition of a loan, are not income to the borrower (SSI applicant/recipient) for SSI purposes since such funds are subject to repayment. Any portion of such funds not spent by the borrower are a countable resource to the individual (borrower) if retained into the quarter following the quarter of receipt."

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/ssi/03/SSR78-26-ssi-03.html
This may help

Superseded 1992

Superseded by SSR 92-8

SSR 78-26: Treatment of Loans for Supplemental Security Income Purposes: Income or Resources

SSR 78-26

PURPOSE:

To provide clarification of policy with respect to when proceeds of a loan are (1) not countable income for Supplemental Security Income (SSI) purposes, and (2) when they are considered a countable resource under the SSI program.

CITATIONS:

Sections 1611 and 1631(e)(1)(B) of the Social Security Act, as amended; Regulations No. 16, Sections 416.1102 and 416.1201.

PERTINENT HISTORY:

Existing regulations define income as ". . . the receipt by an individual of any property or service which he can apply, either directly or by sale or conversion, to meeting his basic needs for food, clothing and shelter." A resource is defined under regulations as ". . . cash or other liquid assets or any real or personal property that an individual (or spouse, if any) owns and could convert to cash to be used for his support and maintenance. If the individual has the power to liquidate the property, or his share of the property, it is considered a resource. . . ."

When an individual borrows and receives money through a lending process, as a borrower, or receives money as repaying on an outstanding loan (lender), a determination must be made whether such money is considered a resource or income for SSI eligibility and payment purposes. Since inception of the SSI program, proceeds of a loan have not been considered income to the borrower because of the obligation to repay. Existing regulations do not spell this out. Similarly, since inception of the SSI program, outstanding loans made by an SSI applicant or recipient from money available to him/her have been considered a countable resource to the extent there has been a negotiable instrument showing existence of a loan agreement. This is because a negotiable instrument is convertible to cash and, therefore, meets the definition of a resource for SSI purposes. In such a case, the negotiable instrument would be a countable resource to the lender.

Existence of negotiable instrument, however, is not the sole criterion of a bona fide loan. The interpretation of a bona fide loan for SSI purposes is that where a borrower receives money (from relatives, friends or others) a loan is created if there is an understanding between the parties that the money borrowed is to be repaid and it is recognized as an enforceable contract under State law. The transaction which creates a loan can be in the form of a written or oral agreement if enforceable under State law. Absent a negotiable instrument, a bona fide loan must still be convertible to cash in order to be considered a resource for SSI purposes.

POLICY DIRECTIVE STATEMENT:

For purposes of determining when a loan is not considered income and when a loan is considered a countable resource under the SSI program, the following policies apply:

A loan means an advance of money from lender to borrower where borrower has to repay, with or without interest. This applies to any commercial as well as noncommercial loan (between relatives, friends or others) that is recognized as enforceable under State law. The loan agreement may be oral or written, as long as it is enforceable under State law.
Monies received, which meet the above definition of a loan, are not income to the borrower (SSI applicant/recipient) for SSI purposes since such funds are subject to repayment. Any portion of such funds not spent by the borrower are a countable resource to the individual (borrower) if retained into the quarter following the quarter of receipt.
(However, in initial application situations, if application for SSI benefits is made in the second month of the quarter, money received in that month which is retained is considered a resource in the month following the month of receipt (i.e., third month of the quarter)).
Where money is given and accepted on any understanding between parties, other than that it is to be repaid by the receiver of the money, there is no loan involved for SSI purposes. Such money could be a gift, support payments, etc., and must be treated accordingly (i.e., as provided in rules applicable to such items).
If there is a bona fide loan as defined in (1) above, a rebuttable presumption is created that the loan meets the definition of a resource and it is a countable resource to the lender unless the presumption can be rebutted.
For example, an SSI claimant (lender) reports an outstanding loan (based on an oral agreement) made to a relative (borrower). In this particular State such agreements are enforceable. Accordingly, the loan is presumed to be a resource to the lender because it can be converted to cash if the lender calls for repayment from the borrower. However, should the borrower die without leaving an estate, the lender can rebut the presumption of a countable resource by showing that the loan can no longer be converted to cash.
Money received by the lender as repayment of a loan (which meets the definition of a resource) reduces the outstanding loan balance and is considered a countable resource to the lender inasmuch as the repayment amount represents a return of part of the loan principal; i.e., the total value of the resource, which is the repayment amount plus the outstanding loan balance, remains unchanged.
Interest on a loan is counted as unearned income to the lender in the quarter of receipt and, if retained, as a resource as in (2) above.
DOCUMENTATION:

Evidence must be obtained with respect to the existence of a bona fide loan agreement. The burden of proof with respect to the bona fide nature of the loan is with the claimant. As with other legal questions, questionable loan situations will be referred to the appropriate regional attorney.

CROSS-REFERENCES:

Claims Manual Sections 12335, 12349ff, 12502, and 12521.3

[mrcheerful]

27. Update time

SO's step mom was denied both food stamps and medicaid, welfare had a few reasons why, first because SO and I are paying rent on the 2 rooms in their house, it put their income way above the limits. To many assets, the vehicles and life insurance are valued higher then the limits. Step dad has a paper route that pays him $200 every 2 weeks that Step mom forgot to tell them about. Then I found out that because Blue Cross was dropping her from the dialysis coverage, step mom assumed that her Blue Cross payments were going up, but she doesn't know because Blue Cross hasn't got her new payment plan figured out. From what I found out, theres a very good chance that Blue Cross will charge less, it has been the dialysis that drove the Blue Cross up.

[JL810]

29. it is administrative fraud.

For Food Stamps she can have one car (exempt, the one with the highest value) the other car however is an "asset." For Food Stamps (federal program) I think she can only have 2000-2500.00 in assets TOTAL.

(But you should have her check the asset/income limitations on line somewhere for FS, to see for sure, run a search "Food Stamps, Asset and Income" you should get the amounts you need, also check "exemptions" to make sure her second car can't be an exemption some how?).

If she is "over assets" (has over 2500 in assets) that means she is receiving benefits that she is not entitled to receive period and she is receiving them by deliberately withholding information (that they asked her to provide) that is administrative FRAUD.

Criminal Fraud has a higher standard of proof. State Welfare Agencies send their administrative fraud cases to prosecutors to screen for criminal prosecution. Food stamps is a federal program (unlike some of the state welfare programs which are 'state programs) --so she could have a federal fraud charge or the state could prosecute, either one I think could take it (because while FS is a federal program, it is administered by the state so the state has a interest as well).

The rent she receives from you and your SO -is INCOME to her and by failing to report it she is not reporting all of her income. If the income she receives from you makes her ineligible for food stamps (puts her "over income") that is Fraud too. Again, she is receiving benefits to which she is not entitled and she is receiving them because she deliberately "knowingly" failed to disclose information they requested. Even if the income didn't make her ineligible (didn't put her over income) it could have the effect of reducing the amount of food stamps that she is eligible for --thus she could be receiving more benefits than she is entitled to receive and she is receiving them by deliberately withholding information (fraud).

Life insurance policies can also be "assets" if they have "cash value." Some policies cannot be cashed in--their value as an "asset" is the cash they would receive if they cashed them in right now.
The funeral plots should be exempt - not an asset.

All of these 'assets' she may not have reported are added to any she actually did report (i.e., money in checking/savings, CD's,) it doesn't take much to get to the FS asset limit.

I understand times are tough but this is not the way to get help. It can bring more trouble than she needs--some of these state welfare workers and agencies are bulldogs, they don't' cut anyone any slack for any reason.

If it turns out that the assets she has reported, combined with the assets she has not reported is more than 2500 (double check the asset limitation) I would try to convince her to tell them she doesn't want benefits anymore and hope they go away and don't look at her case any further. If they try to get back the benefits she has already received (charge her with an "overpayment") there will more than likely be a fraud charge attached to the overpayment. If the welfare agency charges her with fraud, then the potential exists for criminal fraud charges (however, it is more difficult to prove criminal fraud then administrative fraud so just because one is proven doesn't mean the other necessarily will be).

If she stops taking benefits right now they may go away. If she is charged with a fraud overpayment -she may be able to negotiate w/them to drop the fraud in exchange for payment in full of the overpayment amount. It is serious -no joke--they can make her life miserable. It seems like she has enough going on right now with her health, etc. There are other sources of help, food banks? I don't how old she is but she may be eligible for meals on wheels or for other types of food assistance for older people (with higher income/asset allowances than welfare allows).

Sometimes "negotiating" with welfare can be done directly with a worker assigned the case sometimes it requires filing an appeal first..it depends. Also, check your state welfare web-site, and double check the numbers given the specific information about her household.


Oh, If you prepare and share food with your stepmother than you should be included in the Food Stamp Household. I suspect your not included in the Food Stamp Household from what you have said, but if you are included, you are at risk too, all "Food Stamp Household" members are liable.

[Kire]

31. I don't know about the other things, but....

....you can't own more than one car.

My Aunt is completely screwed because her daughter's car was in her name. And she can't just give it away either. She put it in my cousin's name, but my cousin didn't pay her for it and they need see that she did.

(warning, this may disturb some people)

Now, she has post-traumatic stress disorder on top of four broken vertebrae, a broken nose, a broken elbow, some broken ribs. She has vertigo that makes her fall down all the time, always getting more injuries. She thinks she has cancer in her liver and her cervix.

Her ex-neighbor assaulted her and there was no witnesses. She emails screaming ranting emails to everybody all the time, our family, the victim's assistance agencies, the politicians, the media, and nothing ever helps. It is difficult dealing with her even for me. Most of my family find it too hard to even look at her emails.


She keeps claiming that the welfare agency care more about illegal immigrants than her. She is a US citizen but she used to be a millionaire in Asia.

Plus, somebody stole her identity and ruined her credit to the low 400's. She can't get any kind of job. They also foreclosed on her house last year and she squatted in it for several months. The bank is suing her for a couple of hundred dollars for every day she stayed in there.

I really don't know what to do. It got me so upset, I had to get some distance. I could write the nicest, most beautiful emails (I live 3000 miles away) trying to encourage her and inspire her and everything, and the next minute an eggshell will break and I'll be the one talking about it with my therapist. My last email about the subject was to tell her that she needs to find an advocate, and that "help is available". She disagreed with me, and I haven't really let it affect me too much for a month or so.

It's awful. Her friends are writing to us about how horrible of a family we are and that she's going to be crawling with maggots under a bridge somewhere, but what can we do? She had two cars in her name. Now, her own daughter won't even talk to her, and is talking about a restraining order. I haven't heard how that is turning out, either. I'm not sure if my cousin is talking to me, either.

It's wild.

Anybody got any ideas?

Thanks for letting me tell my story. Heaven help me if she reads this message, even though I will never reveal her name publicly.

[pop goes the weasel]

she can give the car away

There are dozens of charities that will gladly take an old car as a donation. So, she should give away the car that needs the most work and keep the other one for her personal use. People are permitted to have one car in their name for personal use.

And she may qualify for disability income based on her psychiatric state. Often, people will get assistance faster for the mental issues that come from untreated physical disorder and lack of social support than they will for the physical issues to begin with. So, damaged vestibular? No help. Clinical depression because life has gone to shit after the damage? Suddenly, one qualifies.

[happyslug]

35. Title and ownership are two different things, For welfare and SSI is is OWNERSHIP that counts.

It is while accepted that a person who owns something may or may not have his or her name on the title of what is owned. Title is who has the right to transfer title to someone else (And generally ownership at the same time) but that person may NOT own what he or she is selling. If you sell something, because you have title, you can be sued by the person who has the real ownership interest. Thus your Aunt can NOT sell her title to the car, for in reality the car is owned by her daughter and selling the title interferes with her daughter's right of ownership.

Now the law presumes Title and ownership is one and the same, but that is a presumption that can be overcome by evidence (i.e. you Aunt's daughter showing she made all the payments and pays the insurance and maintenance for the car and that she, your aunt's daughter has the car).

What you need is a letter, notarized if possible, from her daughter that it is her car and is in her mother's name for some valid reason (i.e. Insurance or just the bank wanted it in her mother's name when the loan was taken out or for some other reason). Her daughter may have to go to a hearing involving your aunt's claim for SSI or Welfare (or Food Stamps) and say why the car is hers not her mother's (Where her Daughter can clearly state it is her car not her mother's even through it is in her mother's name and why it is hers not her mothers). If her daughter does get a restraining order on your aunt, make sure the Order clearly says the car is the Daughter's (As a Order of Court, given great weight by Welfare and SSA).

One question, is the car is her name alone or both her and her daughter's names? If it is the later, she has an unsalable interest, no one will buy it unless BOTH persons will sign and since the Daughter will refuse (And I would recommend that the Daughter refuses and write a letter to that affect) your aunt has an unmarketable title. i.e the value of her interest in the car is zero.

You may have to fight this all the way to your local court i.e. through the welfare system (If you aunt has a welfare problem) or the SSI system (If this is a SSI problem). The problem is she has to show she has no ability to sell the car, if she can not sell the car, the value of the car is zero.

What I have done for some clients in my state's welfare program, wrote letter to SSA and Welfare about the value of various items that had no real value (and why the item had no real value). You may have to get someone to do this for your aunt. Tell her to check with her local Legal Services offices and tell them about her problem, it is more common then you think. Welfare is the worse, demanding some sort of "Legal Document" to show no value. An opinion letter from an attorney stating the facts of who in reality owns the car may be sufficient.

[DU GrovelBot]

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