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Domitan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:28 PM
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Hot discussion/debate on Autistic Culture (with a Deaf sideshow)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:15 PM
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1. Mahalo (thank you)
Look for it on LBN before it sinks down again...

Interesting that these types of posts generate such heated discussion. Most other disability topics I've posted in the past have sunk to the bottom with a loud Thud.
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:58 PM
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2. yeesh
What a good example of the social model of disability in action. The whole thread is almost a parody. We need an article on disability rights on DU.
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Banazir Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 03:23 AM
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3. It gets so one is sick of responding...
Because all people end up saying is "Autism is defined as bad. Therefore everything about being autistic is bad because medical science says so. People who want to cure autistic people are good. The only way to help anyone autistic is cure. So people who don't want autistic people cured are bad and sick and deluded and not really autistic and don't understand suffering."

People add in their tales of relatives who "can't even" something-or-other, or who have had a horrible thing done to them (but somehow the cause of the horrible thing is seen as autism, because all horrible things done to autistic people are autism's fault). Then they say that autistic self-advocates have not had those things done to them and have never experienced whatever state of "can't even" is being discussed. Then they make it sound as if autistic self-advocates want to take all the help away.

Most people doing this seem absolutely impervious to the idea that autistic people might have something legitimate to say about all this, and either ignore autistic people as "not really autistic" or patronizingly pity autistic people for lacking empathy for the "plight" of the autistic underclass they've created. I think that allows them to go merrily on their way without having to consider autistic people's opinions as meaningful.

And yes, neither progressives nor conservatives as a whole tend to understand disability rights issues. At all.
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 06:06 PM
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4. I noticed that...
business of most of the posters being offended that people with autism have the audacity to have an opinion about how they should be treated. What nondisabled people don't understand is that, while there might someday be a cure, in the meantime, there is life to be lived. And life should be lived as fully as possible. I know of group homes for severely mentally disabled adults where the nondisabled social workers are so focused on everything looking "normal" that would rather the residents be spoonfed by the staff than allow the residents to fingerfeed themselves. I have dexterity problems, and often eat with my fingers when my hands are hurting; if I had a low IQ or brain damage and needed supervision to live, even being able to feed myself would be taken away from me by those sorts of people!

I don't care if researchers run after cures--some things really do need a cure. But why on earth do disabled people have to pretend to be normal? Why does that give comfort to nondisabled people? The disability doesn't go away just because a certain behavior is enforced. An autistic person can be forced to make eye contact, but that doesn't make the eye contact meaningful. Deaf people can be forced to communicate orally, but that doesn't make their oral speech useful or natural to them. It used to be that people who used wheelchairs had to pretend to be able to stand and walk if they went out in public (as FDR did), and if they couldn't, they were called "hopeless cripples" and weren't supposed to ever be out in public. And why? All because it would disturb the sensibilities of nondisabled people who want to pretend that everyone is just like them.
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Banazir Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. For autism in particular...
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 07:52 AM by Banazir
For autism in particular (not necessarily all other conditions), the problem with cure is that autism is simply a word for the outward manifestations of a set of very deep and fundamental differences in the way the brain works. Even when some of these differences cause extreme difficulty with certain ways of doing things, they're still outgrowths of that basic brain organization. Autistic people (and a number of other people with different kinds of brains) are not neurotypical people with a piece missing or broken, so curing autism (of any kind) would be more analogous to a brain transplant than to setting a broken leg or curing a disease.

So the reason many autistic people oppose a cure is that regardless of how difficult living with an autistic brain may be at times (and few of us will deny that part), it's our brains and the structure of our brains affects far more of our lives than the criteria for autism cover. Moreover, most efforts to cure us only see those superficial outward manifestations rather than the deeper differences.

Unfortunately, most people read this and decide that self-advocates think that everything about being autistic is wonderful. It's not and we know it's not. But as an illustration, I recently read a book in which an autistic boy showed his mother affection, in a very autistic sort of way, his movements and choice of ways of touching her were all screamingly (and beautifully) autistic. She wrote that for that moment he was not autistic anymore, until he ran off stimming on something. She illustrates that dominant perspective that autism is superficial, and that it doesn't underlie and affect nearly everything we do and think. She simply saw him showing affection and turned off her own awareness of his internal nature for a moment, presumably because autism and affection or happiness didn't mix in her mind. Most autistic people do not have this mental block or this view of autism as superficial, and I think it is the view that it is a superficial thing which can therefore even be cured that drives the hunt for a cure. If people knew how deep it ran, they would know it was impossible.

I agree with everything else you wrote, but I don't think that just because something has a medical name necessarily means it needs a cure. Some things that have been medicalized are deep differences in brain configuration, and the medical definitions are only the most superficial manifestations of that difference. Other things that have been medicalized I see no problem in curing, provided the person wants a cure. I hope that by my other message I have made clear that this is not a message against helping us live in the world in the best way possible, but searching for a cure detracts from that (and many of the things touted as cures are extremely dangerous, physically or emotionally). I hope that explains a little better why many autistic people have a problem with the attitude that we just need our brains transplanted or something.

I do wish people realized how deep any form of autism runs, because I think if they did they would understand this, and I do think their attempts to cure us stem from the myth that there is a 'normal' person hidden behind autism (which in turn stems from the fact that autistic people often don't have glaring outward physical differences although we do have more subtle ones often, so it is tempting to view autism as something relatively superficial behind which there is something else, which of course there isn't). People are also handed a superficial definition of autism by medicine, a definition which is equivalent to defining humanity by describing the consistency and shape of our skin. It's that superficial definition that a lot of us are trying to challenge, but unfortunately our attempts to challenge it are often taken in a superficial way that portrays us as liking who we are because of savant skills or some similar thing (which is not the real reason most of us would prefer to stay this way). Failure to recognize the depth of the difference also often results in superficial teaching methods that teach us to go through the motions, rather than going with the way our brains react and respond to stimuli and building on much more solid ground that way.

In addition to being autistic, by the way, I am physically disabled. That is something where on the cure issue I'm indifferent by this point: If it went away, I'm sure I'd be glad (particularly because it's painful), but it's not high on my priority list in life. Autism is different, and deeper, and I can't imagine wanting to get rid of it because if you somehow rewired my brain to take out the parts that contribute to the medical definition 'autism', there wouldn't be a lot left that was similar to how I am in the first place. If I woke up tomorrow physically non-disabled, I would wake up with more stamina and motor skills and less nerve pain and so forth, but I'd still be me. If I woke up tomorrow non-autistic, I would wake up a completely different person.
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 08:58 PM
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6. Sorry I've been away . . .
As I've said many times, if there were a cure for autism, I would not want it.

OK, so NTs can function faster than I can, they can handle more sensory input at a time, and they can communicate with other NTs better than I can. I am much smarter than they are, I am more logical, and I communicate with nonhumans and computers better than they do. Who is to say their brains are simply "better"? I'd say mine is better for a significant number of tasks, thank you very much. How would they feel if I suddenly started an organization called "Defeat Neurotypicality Now"?

I try not to just blanketly hate NTs, but yee great googly gads, they make it so very hard!
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