Can you give me some hints on what to look for in a used piano?

[wildeyed]

My daughter started taking lessons and really seems to like it. We have a small electric keyboard, but I think we will need to upgrade to a real instrument soon.

I have seen pianos on craigslist and ebay for next to nothing but it looks like moving and tuning would be in the $300-$400 range, so even a "free" piano isn't actually free. If I pick up one of these bargains, I want to be sure that it will play decently once I have it moved and tuned.

Anything in particular I should look for? Anything to absolutely avoid? Thanks in advance for the advice!

[DarkTirade]

1. The only advice I have is as follows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OACS3pGKSw

[wildeyed]

2. Duly noted........

No pianos in marching band :P

If she decides to march I will switch her to something more appropiate.... maybe tuba?

[DarkTirade]

3. How 'bout bassoon?

They have those in bands, why not marching bands?

[wildeyed]

4. Trombone?

That is loud and brassy. Should go well in a marching band.

My 9yo nephew has been recuited by the music teacher at his school to play trombone. He has very long arms and pouty lips, both of which are apparently a plus. My sister says his practice is a horror...... What we do for our kids :crazy:

[ProfessorGAC]

5. As Someone Who Once Rebuilt A Used Piano. . .

. . . let me tell you a couple things i'd look for:

1) Ask if there are any cracks in the soundboard. Small ones won't affect the sound that much except on the strings directly over the crack, but if the crack is bad, you will need someone who knows how to butterfly the cracks with the right kind of wood. This is costly.

2) Make sure there are no sticky keys. Sticky keys can be the result of about 4 different things. If it's only swelling of the wood of the keys, sandpaper fixes that in minutes. But, if it's the escapement that's sticking, you have to know the mechanical workings of the piano quite well to find it, shave it without compomising structure, and reassamble. If it's the hammer pivot, that requires someone who really knows what they're doing. If i had to do it, i know i wouldn't do it cheap.

3) Ask about mushy keys. On some older, cheaper pianos, (like my sister's family), some keys lose their levered resistence. That makes one or a few keys require LOTS of pressure to get the hammer to escape. That really screws up the playing since you can hit all the notes with the same touch and one note will barely sound, if at all. You have to really whack those keys. This usually happens because the hammers are out of alignment and there is no hammer weight on the escapement. If the hammers aren't applying weight to the back of the key, then the force you use is just pushing the key down and barely flinging the hammer. This could be hammer pad wear, or a pivot problem. Again, this requires a professional and could cost $10 - 15 per key.

4) Make sure the pedals work. Not so much the piano pedal or sustenuto, (if that actually works on the piano, sometimes they're fake.) Resizing the levers, if they're not working quite right, isn't a hard job and you can probably do it yourself. Most pedeals have a coupling on them that allows the two rods to be screwed in and out to make the longer or shorter until the dampers can be pushed off the surface.

5) Make absolutely sure that the escapement removes the damper as soon as the key is hit, and they fall back when the key is released. If there are serious damper escapement problems, the piano will be almost unplayable. This is major work and you'll have to hire a pro to fix it.

6) Ask about hammer wear. Hammers can compress and have some that will be much flatter at the impact point. This will generally cause one note to come out a little "late". For a beginner, it might not matter, but as she gets better it can make playing fluidly pretty touch.

That's enough, i think.

Tuning should not be all that expensive. Moving costs won't be cheap though. I have a guy in a town about 17 miles away that tunes for only about $20 bucks and will regulate for another $50. Since i know how to do both, i only have him come around if i'm too lazy to do it myself. So, just shop around. You'll find someone who knows what they're doing and will do it fairly economically.
GAC

[wildeyed]

6. Will I be able to visually inspect for cracks in the sound board?

I guess I could also visually inspect the hammers, see if some of them looked worn? As for mushy and sticky keys, I will just press each one and see how it sounds. I know next to nothing about pianos, and I think a lot of the people posting theirs for sale on craigslist know even less. They inherited the instrument or their kid played 20 years ago and now they are downsizing and need to get rid of it fast.

I emailed DD's piano teacher and she suggested we look into digital pianos if we want to stay under $1000. Initially I was disappointed by the idea. A real piano with heft and history is so much more emotionally satisfying than a fake plastic and silicon piano. But then I looked at the digitals online. They are small, lightweight and according to reviews, provide a fairly realistic playing experience. Also has the added benefit of coming with earphones :)

So we shall see what comes our way. Maybe there is a nice second hand piano in our future or maybe not.

Thanks for the info. It will be a big help with our decision. :hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

9. My Suggestion On Cracks

If you're looking at low cost, you're talking about spinet, upright, or console. You should get a flashlight and a mirror on a string. You can see the back of the soundboard that way. Take the front panels off (if it's a spinet, there may not be a lower panel that's removable) and you can check the soundboard by looking straight at it.

As to hammers, just look for splits or really bad flat spots.

One note on digital: Unless you spend a LOT more than $1000, you're not going to get a weighted action keyboard that feels anything like a real piano. You have to start looking at $1500 and up for that, in my experience. You can probably get a real piano, used, for less than a good feeling digital. The headphone thing, i can't explain away. If you don't want to hear practicing, then digital would be the way to go.

I don't concur with the reviews you read. While i've nothing against digital pianos, and i've used them onstage, the cheaper ones have low power, small speakers, lack resonance algorithms, and few other detail rethat all result in a "nothing like the real thing" experience. If you used a Kurzweil, or a high end Clavinova through a really good power amp and great speakers, that may be more true, but the cheap option doesn't include an eight hundred amp and a couple of thousand dollar speakers! The lower cost digitals do not have the richness and room fill of even a low cost spinet.

So, i'd continue looking in the direction you are. You could also sell it again, and the net will probably be better than selling a used digital since people consider digital tech disposable these days.
GAC

[Bonhomme Richard]

7. Ask or see where they kept it.

If it was over a heating vent or element...stay away.

[MilesColtrane]

8. Make friends with a professional player or teacher.

Or, work out a quid pro quo with them. Offer them something in exchange if they will accompany you to take a look at prospective purchases.

Sure, you could give a piano a cursory visual inspection, but there are a lot of intangibles concerning the action and sound that can only be evaluated by a professional. They'd be able to tell you why that "bargain" isn't such a bargain after all, and they would be more knowledgeable about possible resale value down the road.

[Sparkly]

10. Hire a piano technician to look at it!!

Look up "piano tuner" in the yellow pages or ask for a reference at a local music shop. Try to get one that belongs to the professional guild.

It might cost about $100 but they'll tell you a lot about the piano.

[wildeyed]

11. That is exactly what I did!

I found a seemingly perfect piano on craigslist, but at $1000 it still would have been an expensive mistake if the sound board had been cracked or it had some other grievous problem. So I found a guild certified tech on the internet, he popped over to look at it, gave it a clean bill of health and I picked it up two days later :)

I am so pleased with the purchase. It is a much nicer piano than I thought we would be able to afford; a full sized studio upright, beautiful walnut and it sounds, at least to my untrained ears, very nice. The tech appraised it at $2,500, so I guess it was a smokin' deal, too.

Another quick hint in case anyone else is shopping for a piano, get a book called The Piano Book. Full of lots of good piano buying advice plus brand ratings and model numbers. They also publish a yearly supplement with updated prices and ratings.

[Sparkly]

12. Congrats!

What make is it, and how old?

[wildeyed]

13. 1996 Kohler and Campbell

Manufactured by Samick in Korea. It is one of their middle of the line models. Maybe not great for a serious pianist, but a whole lotta piano for a 7 year old just starting out. I don't expect that we will ever need to purchase another piano for her. This one should get her through. And if she loses interest in a few year, I can sell it for at least what I paid. I am very tempted to start lessons myself!

Here is a picture of the little prodigy at work ;)

[Sparkly]

14. Excellent -- and darling pic!!

How cute that she puts her stuffed animals next to her on the bench!! I love it. :D

(Until she starts using the pedal, you might want to sit her on something so she's up a little higher. Her elbows shouldn't be way below her wrists like that. Sorry -- I'm a piano teacher and HAD to say it! And is that a Faber Piano Adventures book? Those are good!)

[wildeyed]

15. Yeah, I figured her form wasn't the greatest.

I will look more closely next time she plays and make sure she is not ingraining bad habits.

Her little friend from the neighborhood is taking piano lessons, too, and today they played piano together off and on for hours. So nice nice to see her enjoying her music so much already :)

[Sparkly]

16. Not her fault -- she just needs a higher bench or something to sit on.

Wonderful that she's enjoying it! :)

[ProfessorGAC]

17. What Sparkly Said!

Good for you. Glad you got a good one. Of course, one that new would very unlikely to have some of the things i worried about. I was more concerned you were looking into something 20 to 40 years old, or something.

You should have many, many years of service from that piano.
GAC

On Edit: While i agree with Sparkly on your daughter's elbow height, unless she's playing hours per day, that won't hurt either technique or create tendon stress for now. And, by the way, she looks tall enough to me, that she might just be able to sit on a bed pillow, and back the bench up just a bit. That will raise her arms a bit and still keep her within reach of the pedals.

[wildeyed]

18. Thanks, Professor!

Initially I was looking at older pianos, but after researching and seeing a few in person, I decided to wait and buy something that was better quality. The cheap pianos were mostly spinets and the quality wasn't very good. It seemed like I would spend $400 + another $200 for moving and still need to upgrade sometime in the next few years if my daughter progressed much past the beginner stage.

The piano we bought is good enough that it should take her through the intermediate stage with no problem. If she loses interest in a few years, I am confident that I can sell it for at least what I paid. So in a weird way, this is actually a cheaper piano than a really cheap one would have been, once you take resale and moving expense into the equation. At least that is how I justified the expense to myself ;) Besides, I am so in love with it that I may even learn how to play myself. I can already play 'Ode to Joy', although I am not as good as my daughter.

I think that when I took that picture, she was messing around with the pedals which made her look more shlumpy than usual. I am going to ask her teacher about correct form at the next lesson, look at how she plays at home and add a phone book or whatever to make her more comfortable.

:hi:

[Sparkly]

19. You must keep us posted on her progress!

Look at those beautifully rounded fingers!!

Somewhere online, I saw a contraption that (supposedly) enables little ones to use the pedals -- like a box at their foot level, with an extension that presses the pedals. On the rare occasions they use the damper pedal, I just let them "shlump" as needed! :)

(Sometimes I've had students who were ready to really work with the pedal technically, but not physically, and I just waited until they grew a bit. Same with octave playing.)

I hope she loves her teacher!!

[wildeyed]

20. She is not ready to use the pedals yet, just interested in how they change the sound.

DD likes her teacher very much. She took Kindermusik from her last year, so they already have a bond. I hope we are able to continue with the same teacher in the fall. She is very popular and needs to cut back on her number of private students due to some family challenges.

I will update on her progress. :hi: