Need some opinions on a possible guitar purchase

[freethought]

Greetings fellow DU guitarists. I'm seeking some opinions on a type of guitar I would just love to have in my little, burgeoning collection.
I have always been a fan of the Gibson ES-335, but a new one is nearly $3000.00 with some signature models even more. I have wondered about buying an Epiphone Sheraton, which are about $600.00, and "improving" it. What I mean is, putting additional cash into some higher quality parts, ex. new pickups(Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan etc..), new tuners, replace stock electronics with a higher quality set, and maybe even replace the stock nut with a new one made of bone or some other synthetic like TUSQ.
I kind of hem and haw about this, kind of caught between trying to be patient and save up the cash for a Gibson or slapping down the CC for the Epiphone.
Anyone have an opinion? Or perhaps done the same sort of thing? I would appreciate the opinions!

[Iggo]

1. I feel your stress.

I bought an Epiphone Les Paul Custom with the same attitude, that I would hot rod it 'til it was all Gibson'd out. That's still kind of the overall plan. But I soon realized I could've got a faded SG or Explorer (they were new at that time and very cheap) for a few hundred more. I think that, by the time I get done putting all the high end shit into my Epi, I'll have paid twice what it's worth and significantly more than what I could've gotten either Gibson for.

Not exactly the same situation as you, I know. Just lettin' you know you ain't alone...lol.

[freethought]

2. Hey, I appreciate the input!! Thanx!!

My problem is that when I tend to want something, especially when it comes to guitars, I tend to be impatient. I want it NOW!! I'm not sure I could hold the urge back long enough to save up 3K in cash.
Know what I mean!

[Bonhomme Richard]

3. My two cents. I would hold off until you can afford the Gibson.

At the end of the day you will have what you want and the guitar will hold it's value. You will be happier. I always wanted a Les Paul and was looking at the Epiphones but waited. I now have the Les Paul and love it.

[here_is_to_hope]

4. Is this for playing or?

If its to play, get a used Sheraton and hot rod it, if its because they are 'pretty', get a used 335 Gibson.
New guitars are never a deal, ever. Not only do they lose half their value when you walk out of the store, the resale market is swamped, driving the price even lower.
I have done many swap outs to hot rod lower end Epi's, as long as you have a set neck, everything else is relative.
I am a player first and a wall hanger kind of guy second.

[freethought]

5. I'm a player. NOT a collector!

At least not in the sense that I intend to accumulate a slew of expensive guitars or vintage instruments with the intent of keeping them as an investment.
I am trying to narrow down what I would want in my small collection. Two strats, a tele, one dual humbucker "HOT ROD" , the 335, and my trusty $250.00 Yamaha acoustic will do it. I tend to favor Strats and Teles. I have a Mexican made Fender Tele which is great. The instruments would be played and not displayed.

[here_is_to_hope]

6. I would do an Epi then, I suggest

finding a use one or a second and putting the money into the pick ups and pots, do it all, the wires, jack, everything, including the saddles.
My own 1990's Epi has all Gibson stuff throughout, I have about 400.00 in it I guess and it rocks the real deal.
The nut is pretty important, especially if you are a string bender. Bone is best, Tusq is good too but I still prefer bone as I make my own. Plastic nuts suck and cause problems but you know that!
lol...

Are you thinking of doing the swap yourself? Its not too hard IF you get everything as a group and its prewired. The hard part is setting in the new pots and jack, tough reach on a holly body, just takes patience.

[freethought]

7. I would take the instrument to tech/luthier

The one thing I do know when it comes to the 335 style of guitar body, is that the bridge pickup has to be removed to access the chamber with the pots and switches. Definitely not like a Strat where the control plate can just be unscrewed and removed. I would rather not take a chance by doing it myself but rather pay someone who may have done the job a few times.

The nut would be definite, tusq or bone. I'll decide on that once I have an instrument in hand.

Thanx for the input!

[here_is_to_hope]

8. "holly body"...lol...

As to the pot swap, even removing the bridge pick up will sometimes just exposed the block of wood running down the sound board so that might be a reach. Some of the 330's were completely hollow and I heard of a few odd duck 335's Gibson made that were not blocked. I get to them by taping the F holes off and using my fiddle tools to get at it all. I worked on a ES175 (1966) over the weekend, new nut and reset the intonation, cleaned up the saddles and dropped in two NOS V/T pots dated 1959 (where he found those, I have no idea!).
I don't know where you are located and if it isn't against DU rules to suggest it, I could handle the swaps for you once you find the right guitar.
Handcut and fitted bone nuts for example, I do for 30.00, more for Mother of Pearl or Ivory (yes, Ivory!).
Its not a business for me any more but I do all of the work for the guitars shops within 100 miles of me, custom stuff only. I also have wholesale accounts to purchase genuine Gibson parts (I am still authorized by Gibson, Martin for warranty work).
PM me if you are interested.

Since it is a player you want to hot rod, I would go the broken or second route, there is an ebay seller who sells only broken in transit and NOS stuff. The repairs are usually broken pegheads (why do they ship guitars with strings at pitch?) so you get them cheap. Neck repairs like that are relatively easy and surprisingly cheap to do.
The money you save going this route can be substantial, beat the guitar up some more and sell it as a "relic", lol.

[freethought]

9. Relic guitars baffle me.

"Hot Rodding" is kind of relative. I don't intend to install a pair of EMG active pickups or a S.D. Dimebucker into the guitar. Seymour Duncan makes a humbucker which is "slightly hotter" than a P.A.F. or a clone, which to me sounds nearly ideal.

I can't understand for the life of me why this 'relic guitar' has become such a rage. If I ding one of my instruments I practically fall into depression. I like to keep my guitars in good looks and order!

[here_is_to_hope]

10. Its all about stage looks...

My personal stage guitar is a 1922 Stella acoustic with KKSound pick ups under the bridge, the guitar looks as old as it is, just beat but I always get ooohs and aaahs when I play the thing. It sounds as full and warm as anything made today, no matter the cost. I have been playing this guitar for almost 22 years after finding it at a pawn shop in Florida.
Today, these old Stella's go for big bucks, the original parlor guitar craze started with Stella's.(see link below)
Players like vintage stuff because its "burned in", some believe that only a 1962 Strat that has 100,000 hours on it will have the blues tone they want but a 1962 is going to run a lot of money.
But you can beat a new guitar with a chain, sand it down some, burn it with a cigarette, poor beer on it, leave it on the roof doe a few days, and presto, instant cred.
The money they get for these beat up but still new guitars is baffling.

I would agree on the Duncans, slightly hotter gives you more headroom in tone, backed to half volume will give a thinner, strat like tone, full volume will give the warmth and even crunch of the PAF.

http://www.stellaguitars.com/

[kysrsoze]

16. Yeah, go for the Epi. You can do it even cheaper with a Dot Deluxe - Nice Geetar

I was thinking of buying a used Sheraton, but unless I get a good deal, I'm going with a Dot Deluxe. Either one is a great buy.

I own a Gibson Les Paul and a heavily modified Korean Epi LP. The Gibson is killer, but the Epi is really not far behind. My buddy owns a Gibson SG Std and will reach for my Epi before my Gibson. The difference between the Epi Dot/Sheraton and Gibson ES in sound quality and playability are even narrower than LPs. With some reasonable mods, you can have a fantastic playing guitar, but make sure you try a bunch of them, including used ones. The Korean-builts are generally better in quality than the more recent stuff.

Here's what I would recommend changing if you get a Dot or a Sheraton:

- New pickups - Gibson 57/57+ Classics sound VERY nice in Epiphones, but I can't knock Dimarzios or Duncans.
- Replace Volume/Tone knobs and switch - go to guitarfetish.com for cheap, quality parts. Don't replace the jack unless you have trouble.
- Paper-in-oil capacitors. Some great Russion old-stock capacitors (they're a gray color) are all over eBay and cheap. No need to go with Bumblebees or Jensons.

Parts I don't recommend changing (lots of hype and not much benefit, if any):
- Nut - for tuning stability, you can do wonders by tightening the nuts and screws on your tuning machines and rubbing the nut slots with a sharp pencil (graphic is a great lube). Plus, the nut only helps you when you're playing open strings/chords! Think about it.
- Bridge/stoptail - these are good quality and don't need to be replaced.

Good luck with it, and let us know what you do.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. If The Neck Fits Your Hand,. . .

. . .i'd get the Epi and trick it out.

That satistifes your impatience and, unless you're really brand conscious (and it doesn't sound like you are), you'll have a fine guitar.

If you're thinking about an upgraded pickup, look into the Dimarzio FRD (or "Fred"). It's the pickup designed for Satriani. It's very thick but EXTREMELY smooth.

I put one on my main Ibanez. I already liked the pickups i had, but the FRD has punch, and just sings. The false harmonics just JUMP out of the speakers now!

I put a DiMarzio PAF in the neck position. That's really, really round.

Neither pickup is ultra hot, but both have plenty of gain, but no rough edges.

I think you'll like 'em.

Either way you decide, have fun.
GAC

[freethought]

12. Noted!

I have seen some of your posts before and it seems as if you know what you're talking about.
Right now I have to sort of stifle myself for guitar purchases, I don't have the income and have to use the paycheck to take care of other things. However, things are looking up!
I'll keep this forum posted.

[charlie]

13. I like the Dimarzio Fred, too

I've never dropped one in a hollowbody, but I'd imagine it'd be a good match. What I especially like is it has a smidge of single coil tube-y hollowness that boosts articulation. Even through an amp with mondo gain, the notes in chords are distinct. And as you've mentioned, the shimmery gliss on single notes are to die for.

(Though they're not quite as warm, I like Bill Lawrence L500s for the same reasons: punch and clarity. Dimebag Darrell used them for his inhumanly mechanical chugga-chugga, and Nuno Bettencourt does his hyper-articulate funk with them. They keep precision playing crisp, without sounding thin or bite-y.)

[ProfessorGAC]

14. You're Right!

The thing i like best is that with full saturation one can still hear all six strings in a chord.

And, i also forgot to mention that they allow coil tapping, which makes them even more versatile.


Thanks Charlie for reminding me.
GAC

[DrDan]

15. why buy new? I collect also - and would never choose the Epi over a Gibson

lots of bargains abounding right now.

Long term - I don't see you losing any money on a patient-purchase of a quality guitar. Epiphone made some terrific guitars . . . back in the '30's and '40's - the Broadway, for example. Now - just Gibson knock-offs.

Here's one for $1200 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-ES-335-S-Professional-Deluxe-Solid-body-Nice_W0QQitemZ270475029741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item3ef9916ced. And don't be concerned that it was labeled a "second". Gibson did that for a while to clear inventory. I have owned them - and not a problem to be found.

Stick with the Gibson - be patient.

[kysrsoze]

17. Epiphone is a quality budget guitar, and with mods, will come close to feel/sound of a Gibson

Freethought can get something really nice and make some simple mods for less than half the price of the 335 you suggested. Interesting 335, but it's a solid-body, which isn't anything like a 335 semi-hollow. You can get a used Gibson faded SG or LP, essentially the same guitar for $600 or less, even new.

[DrDan]

18. except for a few vintage Epi's, I would still be patient and wait for a decent Gibson

to show up on the used market.

This is a good time to go bargain shopping.

[old mark]

19. I have an Epiphone LesPaul/SG 1961 copy, tripple pickups, gold hardware,

cream finish. It is not a Gibson, but it is a fine guitar in its own right. I bought it used for $450. The Gibson version (a current re-issue) lists for over $6500.
The Gibson is all mahogany, as is the Epi. The Gibson has real MOP inlays, while the Epi's are fake. Both have Grovers, humbuckers and great necks.
The Epi sounds somewhat different, but it is not a "lesser" sound, just a little different from my Gibson LP Special.
I used to own several Gibson Les Paul Customs from the late '60's and early '70's, and they are not all that wonderful, believe me - especially not at the ridiculous prices they are selling for now.

Play a few Epiphone 335 types, such as the Dot,the Sheri, etc, and you will be pleased with them.

mark

[Swamp Rat]

20. Though I have only bought Gibsons, the Epiphone is not a bad instrument

I'm down to one electric guitar now, a Gibson SG, but I would love to own an ES-335. However, if I had to plunk down 3k, which is more than I have for such a purchase, I'd likely get the Epiphone with a very good amp and Electro-Harmonix pedals, etc., and upgrade the Epiphone hardware, as well as get very good cases for the equipment.

If I had 3k, I'd likely buy the best used Ramirez or Rodriguez cedar top classical guitar I could find... preferable with 7 strings (low 7th tuned to B or C)