I've just got to say this

[Andrea]

I've been staying away from DU on purpose lately. As more supers go over to Obama, it has started to look like he'll be the nominee (although I think there is at least a 33% chance that he will self-immolate before Denver). I thought that by staying away from the obnoxious O people, I could be more objective about him and maybe feel like I could vote this November. It's not working. Just seeing him and hearing him, even without the sycophants chorus, is enough to turn a person off him. I don't get how so many people can support someone who is so clearly not only elitist, but downright disdainful of average people.

So, I came back here tonight because it's not working, so what the heck. Now, I don't go into GD: P unless I'm on some kind of mission. But, you can't avoid the crap because it's all over the front page. So what do I see? Now that people are starting to believe he'll be the candidate, the kool-aid kids have to kick their hatefulness up a notch and say that they won't support him if he picks Clinton as his VP. I am floored. I am flabbergasted. I am disgusted. I am in utter disbelief. Just what the hell is wrong with these people?

It's not good enough for them to get their woefully inadequate candidate nominated. No, that takes us really close to a loss in the general, but they aren't satisfied until they get a SURE LOSS in the general. They won't stand for any attempt to reunite the party. They have alienated all the non-cult members and they damn well want all the non-cultists to STAY alienated. This is the most despicable, hateful, destructive bunch of people I've ever seen. They aren't satisfied with their "win", they have to rub everyone else's nose in it, too.

If they aren't on Karl Rove's payroll, they damn well ought to be.

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere. As I said, I've been staying away so I'm behind. I'll catch up. But in the meantime, I just had to say this before I exploded.

[raincity_calling]

1. Can you give examples of

"clearly not only elitist, but downright disdainful of average people" because I don't see it. I have reservations about Obama (I am supporting him) but I don't see him as being "elitist" and "disdainful of average people."

[Catchawave]

3. For starters, look at his

supporters. Oh, not just on DU, because most of us are intelligent enough to do our own research and make up our own minds, but everywhere else, there is no "there" there. :shrug:

In Two Americas most excellent thread are many answers to the "disdainful of average people" observations.

The ENTIRE Obama campaign is an insult to the "average people", with their "either you're with us or the hell with you" mantra (just listen to his speeches!). Yeh, I'm dissed.

[Andrea]

5. I'm surprised that anyone has to ask.

There have been so many. The most recent is calling the reporter "sweetie". In other words, "Okay silly child, we'll give you a chance to ask a question later." Some other very well publicized examples are the "bitter" comments and the remark that his grandmother is a "typical white person".

I'm really struggling with this. No way I would vote for McCain. I would hate to throw away a vote on a third party candidate (unless he/she were really viable - and definitely never Nader), but I can't feel right voting for someone who does not respect me as a person. I'm a three strike person -white, female and over 40. Neither he nor his supporters have any use for me.

What's really unbelievable is, he won't even pretend to have respect for us. Usually a politician will at least give lip service to respecting other groups, since we can vote, but apparently he doesn't get the concept or thinks he can go it alone.

[Name removed]

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[Andrea]

18. If there was a third party candidate that polled well enough

to stand a chance, I would consider that viable and would vote for him/her. However, Nader shares a lot of the responsibility for the last eight years of the Bush regime. No matter what he claims to support now, I will never vote for him and will never trust him. His ego kept him in the race in 2000 when he didn't stand a chance. He knew what he was doing and did it anyway.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[waiting for hope]

2. I'm with you Andrea and agree.

The sheer maliciousness that is directed at anyone who is not on board is staggering. The have lost all perspective that all of them are politicians first and that what the Clinton campaign is going is trying to win. Like it ot not, they all pander (McClurkin - Obama, Hagee - McCain) and neither of the remaining two on the Dem side is any different than what all politicians have done in the past (well, with the exception of Edwards and Gore). Obama's elitist perception translates into lost votes, we saw that with Kerry and unless he can turn that perception around, we will have snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. I have said this before, DU is a vacuum, this board is not a reflection of the rest of the country. But to argue that is like walking a thin line on getting tombstoned or suspended. I'm going to hang around for a bit, I've been here too long to totally break the habit and I would like to see how it all shakes out, especially come November.

And :hug:, feel your frustration. ;)

[Andrea]

9. Thank you, Waiting for Hope

Sadly, I don't see any effort at turning around the perception. Unfortunately, I think we must brace for a loss.

I don't know what will come from that. Obviously, McCain will try to destroy what is left of our country, but I don't know how people will react when Obama loses in November. Will they just give up? Will they ignore it? Will they finally be angry enough to fight? I just don't know.

[cornermouse]

4. I want someone with a plan.

A nice solid tangible plan. I wanted to scream and run when Bush started talking about visions (intangible to say the least) and now the democratic party is hanging our future on "hope" and "change"? I don't want to hope. I want to know. Real change requires a plan and I'm sorry but I never go to someone's website (usual Obama supporter mantra) for anything other than wild promises and a rosy future. :rant:

[Andrea]

7. I agree so much

Without a solid, tangible plan you a) don't know what you are getting and b) have no way to hold their feet to the fire.

Even so, I'm not so much worried about what kind of president he would be as what kind McCain will be. That's because I really doubt Obama can be elected. McCain is what we are looking at, and it's going to be hell.

[cantgetfooldagin]

17. BRAVA cornermouse!!!

[balantz]

6. Here's one observation in the link posted below.

The vitriol we are witnessing just may be a concentration of immature individuals grouping together to voice their shared venom.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6087133&mesg_id=6087212

It may not be quite the same in the real world. I wonder how many of these electronic people act around their friends and neighbors and work-mates?

Maybe they are playing a game with this and it makes them feel good to reign supreme with their man on top?

I don't really watch Obama too much. It seems I remember him to behave in ways that might illicit, or quietly approve of such behavior. A sort of arrogance. But like I said, I don't watch him that much to really give a good observation. I can only watch him so far and then the empty words he spews make me stop watching.

What is it about him that excites people? I see people nodding and smiling and puffing their chests out as they applaud him.

It reminds me of when I was in my twenties and at a rally in Portland for Dukakis. I was excited about the prospect of getting a Dem in after eight long Reagan years. It was the only presidential campaign rally I have ever been to. I was screaming so loud and full of such emotion that it didn't matter what the man said, I was onboard. Looking back, I really don't see what I was excited about. It wasn't really about him, it was about getting a Dem in. I know the Obama phenomenon is different, but there is that "get the Dem in" dynamic at play too.

[Andrea]

8. Thanks for pointing out that thread.

I was happy to see some people in it being decent and rational.

This behavior, whether limited to the internet or not, really shows me some bad things about people today. I, like most everyone, was raised on the concept of good sportsmanship. We were taught that it wasn't just for sports, but for life. It included good standards like don't cheat, play fair, don't kick someone when they are down, don't be a sore loser, but also be graceful in winning. If we've lost that, we've lost honor. Just because we've had to live under this Bush regime for eight years does not mean we have to lower ourselves to their behavioral level. And yet, that's what a large number of people are doing.

I don't watch Obama much either - just as much as I can stand. I see looks and gestures that absolutely reek of arrogance. His refusal to give any policy statements or talk about anything of substance is tantamount to saying, "Just trust me. Don't bother your silly little head with details. I'll handle this." The interplay between him and his audience shows me that he is encouraging their cult like behavior. He's clearly studied religious speakers and adopted many of their methods. It's all call and response. Most politicians study religious speakers because they are very skilled at rhetoric, but they don't take it to the extreme of expecting to substitute an effective speaking style for any actual positions.

I've never seen anything like his audience's response in real life - only in the movies. I've been to a bunch of political rallies - a few for Edwards, a few for Kerry, a recent (non-campaign) Al Gore appearance, loads of local and state-wide candidate events. None of them have been anything like this. None of them were encouraging us to check our critical thinking at the door. It was all about them being in agreement with us, speaking up for us on various issues. His people seem to be abandoning all individual thought and consideration and turning themselves over to him. I've never worked for or supported a candidate with whom I agreed on absolutely everything and I would never expect to, nor would they expect me to. I'm a thinking being with my own experiences, so there will be some disagreements. I look for people with whom I agree on the big issues and the most issues and balance that against the opponents.

I've never seen people behave like that at rock concerts, either, which would be much more understandable to me than this. I guess it is something like the film of the old Beatlemania days, but nothing like anything I've ever seen at the Stones or Springsteen concerts I've attended.

I can't be part of any movement that expects me to turn off my own thoughts and buy in to a total package. It's just not in me. The more I see them in rapt fervor, the more I know it's dangerous and I have to stay away.

[Catchawave]

10. In my 20's for Carter !

Post Watergate and ready for CHANGE ! Jimmy was very inspiring and truly a Washington Outsider, but with intelligence and experience that Obama sorely lacks. Jimmy had a plan too, but was a miserable failure because making nice across the aisle does.not.work. That disappointment made me very apathetic about politics, until 2003 and John Edwards.

I see the same wool being pulled over the twentysomethings for BO too. Unfortunately, not only will O be Carter version 2.0, but with the Bush arrogance. IMHO.

[balantz]

11. It's all puppetry.

People don't see that the game is so sewn up now that there is no chance in Hell we will get to have a true democratic leader become POTUS. For how long I don't know. It will take some really big shiftings in the world to begin to change the national (and world) politics. The elite run this whole thing and Obama is just a player in all of it. Now I have to wonder about some others I looked up to. Don't these politicians know what the game is? They must see that there is no choice but to work within the elite system. Look what happens to those who try to circumvent the system, they are shut out politically, or worse. Is there really anything we can do? Am I tinfoiling here? Do others of you see it this way? Try to tell it to the masses out there and you are dismissed as a looney. People are afraid to see the truth that they are just being duped again and again.

[waiting for hope]

13. Spot on Catch - and I so love Carter too, I just

hope that history will treat him kindly.

[bobbolink]

12. I decided long ago to write in Edwards, and that hasn't and won't change.

I also think we're likely to lose, and I decided long ago that might be best, in the long run.

Remember the frog story? As long as we're slowly coming to a boil, people accept it.

If McLiar turns up the heat, and we boil suddenly, maybe people will finally come to their sense.

:shrug:

[ccinamon]

14. Bobbolink...

I feel the same way you do..and I'm writing in Edwards as well!

I feel a bit like Cassandra...spouting the truth and no one believes you!

Here's hoping that $4/gallon of gas is that extra kick in the head so many Americans seem to need before they start using what few brain cells they have!

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. !

:thumbsup: :yourock: And don't go "Obama" I can't stand him! And his DU supporters suck!