May I suggest that part of this strife scenario is the human need to BELONG?

[bobbolink]

I have seen this at DU for a long time, now, and it affects so many different aspects, from what I can see.

An issue gains popularity, and that draws crowds, as everyone wants to "belong". It is a human NEED--we instinctively know that we cannot make it alone, and NEED the tribe in order to survive.

So, the war becomes an issue, people flock to it out of a sense of outrage, and it becomes powerful and sexy. There is then also the comfort of belonging to a like-minded group.

Because of some well-liked advocates, voting machines became a very popular issue here, and attracted many of us because of the justice aspect of the whole issue. Then it became sexy and powerful.... it was another group it was comforting to be part of.

The same can be said for gay rights and a few other issues, and now the candidates groups. There is power and comfort just in the belonging. There is nothing wrong with that--I'll repeat again, it's a HUMAN NEED to belong.

In fact, I doubt there will even be a response to this idea.

It isn't "sexy", and doesn't make us feel included and popular.

What is sad is that there are other worthy groups that don't make it because it doesn't become popular and sexy. They are just as important, but they never seem to rank in interest. You know, of course, that I'm going to say that poverty is one of those important but neglected issues. It just isn't sexy. There is no comfort and no power in being an advocate of poverty issues. To the contrary...... it is very likely to cause considerable DISCOMFORT and isolation to stand up for poverty.

Nobody seems to be able to articulate WHY poverty doesn't rank... all the reasons given have holes large enough to drive a tank through.

The belonging and forming of "tribes" isn't a problem, as I see it... it's a normal human NEED.

What I see as the problem is the denigration of others in other tribes, and the lack of willingness to assign importance to issues that aren't on the national radar, ignoring and isolating those who care and are affected by the issue, and, finally, an unwillingness to look at the "shadow" side of one's own stand, and the "shadow" side of the stand of a given candidate.

Until we are all willing to look at our shadow, and recognize in that how interconnected we truly are, all these wars will continue--both with us and the globe. That's a basic tenet of the peace movement, but it doesn't seem to catch on.

That stabbing and isolating and popularity contests goes on within the party--it isn't limited to the RW. It goes on in ALL the candidate groups, and it goes on within the Edwardians themselves. Having been a target of that, I can say that the need to look at the shadow exists in the Edwardians just as much as it does with the Obamans.

I'm not pinning any hopes any longer that that process will happen, or that ANY of these groups, and that includes this one, will stand back and look at the need to belong, and recognize how they/we all isolate and reject others in order to have our own clubs where we feel important and needed and BELONGING.

[maryf]

1. Brilliant

Thank you so much, and forgive me for the inordinate wordiness of my post below:

Once again, Bobbie, you have shown what a grasp you have of human nature, in this case the tribal nature. As you infer even the free thinkers, which I believe you and I and others here consider themselves, have a need for community, for a sense of belonging to a group: different than the group(non)think group mentioned in this forum who seem to have to attach themselves to one idea or mindset, the free thinkers like to recognize and applaud the different thoughts and ideas which each individual mind produces. That said, the free thinking people still revel in community, still relate as a "tribe" if you will; it is the applauding of each person's mindfulness and refusal to buy into a set thought pattern which gives us our commonality. But we do forget sometimes that to "deny" a "membership" of one to a group may result in the unfortunate isolation of some individuals perhaps even more individual than the majority of us. These are frequently the true initiators of new thoughts which may well be our salvation; and as you say we must look into our shadows to recognize where we have neglected or ostracized others (more on the shadow later) who may have a wealth to contribute in regards to ideas and plans of action.

That said, I like to think you and I, and hopefully others, are in a group that can produce more thoughts and ideas that can perhaps help solve the humongous problems we are facing. To me the first priority is to address, and force in some way the PTB to address, the exponentially growing economic and social justice problems in this world, poverty being the most egregious. The human rights to a home, to a sense of belonging to a community, to have food whenever needed, to be recognized and respected, and to feel safe, are rights denied to the poor, and as this group numbers in the global majority and includes most of us to some degree, to be able to sustain humanity we must be sure to see all provided with the basic needs so that each may contribute of themselves without having to place survival as their top priority.

The recognition of the shadow side which you discuss and each of us has is critical to our growth as a community. We have to start to see where we are neglecting, abusing, ignoring, snubbing, other members of the human race including in this little DU world. To place oneself in another's shoes may be cliche but is perhaps the best way to see one's shadow, to see where we have done wrong to another. To quote Matthew 25 once again with you, my dear friend, "whatsoever you do unto the least of my brethern, you do unto me", Thank you for being, Bobbie, you have put a mirror in front of my face, you have made a difference with me, which will hopefully help me make a difference with others.
:pals: hugs, Mary

[bobbolink]

7. I believe you have misunderstood me. Let's converse more to see if that's true.

"different than the group(non)think group mentioned in this forum who seem to have to attach themselves to one idea or mindset, "

Actually, I'm saying the oppposite. I'm saying we ALL have that need for belonging... for a comfortable place in the tribe. It goes back all those thousands of years.... we couldn't survive without the tribe, and we still know that, even though our modern lifestyle gives us the illusion that we're self-sufficient. Hurrah for rugged individualism. GAK.

What I'm saying is that what you label "free-thinkers" are doing the very same thing.... drawing a circle around their beloved members, and shunning the others.

Is that truly "free-thinking"?

The language is different, just as is the language of Dems vs. Repubs. But we BOTH, Dem and Repub, want to BELONG. No, scratch that, we NEED to belong.

And rationalize those we leave out, including those who are just like we are... "free-thinking".

We just use different language for painting the dividing lines.

[maryf]

11. I understood you perfectly

Read again "That said, the free thinking people still revel in COMMUNITY, still relate as a "TRIBE" if you will; it is the applauding of each person's mindfulness and refusal to buy into a set thought pattern which gives us our COMMONALITY."

This is, in essence, saying that the free thinking people GROUP, is still a group as the groupthink group is a group, and as such can be exclusionary by nature. I really think I understood what you said!

I was kind of writing as a reminder to myself that

"But we do forget sometimes that to "deny" a "membership" of one to a group may result in the unfortunate isolation of some individuals perhaps even more individual than the majority of us. These are frequently the true initiators of new thoughts which may well be our salvation; and as you say we must look into our shadows to recognize where we have neglected or ostracized others (more on the shadow later) who may have a wealth to contribute in regards to ideas and plans of action."

Even the Republican we rail against may well have a contribution to make to the whole group of humanity.

The only people who possibly deserve to be excluded from the human community are those who kill for malice, torture, I think you get the drift.

On edit

As John Donne said...No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.

[caseycoon]

2. A lot of truth here.

People do want to belong. It's also natural to gravitate toward like-minded people. For example I can't imagine myself even CONSIDERING being in a group of republicans. Even in individual groups here on DU they don't all agree with each other, though. To me there are some things that must be done ASAP. Like restoring our Constitution. Ideally, the whole Democratic agenda would be instantly applied, but it can't be done that way. I guess it's it's natural for folks to concentrate more on issues that apply to them, but I see it as one big package. No group of people is more important than any other group, or shouldn't be. We are all people. We need to realize that is we want changes in our situations, then others have the right to want (need) changes to theirs. If we would all help each other we could certainly get more of those changes & needs taken care of.

I feel like I'm just rambling. There is so much wrong in this country it's just totally overwhelming.

[bobbolink]

4. "I can't imagine myself even CONSIDERING being in a group of republicans."

The first time I read that sentence, I was nodding my head... "Yes,I can't too either."

BUT... when I reflect... some of the people who have cared for me the most in all the shit I'm going through have actually been the republicans. Yes, really.

So often, it's the "liberals" who shun and judge. Yes, really.

There was a letter in Dear Abby (or the other one... can't remember) this morning about a gay guy who asked how to say to his friends that unless they support gay marriage, he can't maintain a relationship with them. Dear Abby, or whoever.. said that was just shallow. That you find friends in all areas of life.

WELLLLL, says I.... long ago I realized that I can't pretend to be friends with those who VOTE to cut back all the supports that I and thousands of others NEED IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN LIFE. It's akin to a Jew voting for a Nazi, it feels like to me.

YET..... there are people who vote Republican who DISAGREE with those cutbacks *MORE* than Dems do!! In my situation, I've had discussions with all stripes, and I see the various disconnects.

I haven't a clue what to do about it, because unless/until we ALL start taking poverty seriously (and I don't see that happening.. all the other issues, as your post indicates, are so much more important), people will wander around in a fog as far as poverty is concerned, and their votes will reflect that.

I WILL say that I'm hurt more by people claiming to be "liberal" and "progressive" who dismiss poverty. Maybe that's not very "logical" of me, but it's how it is.

Rambling, schmambling. We MUST discuss all this, and we MUST start from where we are in our heads.

We give WAAAAAY to much credence to "pretty tongues". NONE of us are conversant on this, and it's time to just start talking, and more importantly, SHARING OUR EMOTIONS AND BEING WILLING TO HEAR THE EMOTIONS OF OTHERS.

[Two Americas]

3. popular and sexy

Brilliant post, and I think you are correct. What makes some things popular and sexy and others not? Beyond the human need to belong is the need to identify with the winners, and which groups are seen as sexy and popular is skewed by that. Then it becomes a matter of how we define winners. In the groups people form here and elsewhere, the criteria we are using for identifying winners is rarely examined, or even acknowledged as a factor in our decisions about where to place our trust and loyalty.

As I said often on poverty threads here, it is not anything that poor people are doing or anything about them that is wrong or needs fixing, it is what the winners are doing, it is in how we define winners. Poverty isn't a disease or mental illness. We don't have a poverty problem, we have a problem of selfishness and greed, of exploitation and domination and bullying. Poverty and homelessness and alienation and isolation are symptoms of that problem.

There is an assumption that those "needing help" are in some way defective, or not "making the right choices." The implication is that if we all "made the right choices" that life would be fine, and to the extent that anyone's life is not fine, they must have "made the wrong choices." The right choices are rewarded, the wrong ones punished. This is reinforced by the Oprah-Deepak Chopra New Age beliefs that have permeated modern society - the doctrine of a just universe that gives one back what one puts out, and that thinking beautiful thoughts magically will produce "abundance" in one's life, and that this abundance will then fulfill all human needs.

I am convinced that the opposite is in fact true. The right choices are punished - severely. The wrong choices are rewarded - lavishly.

[balantz]

5. The "disease" is the burden of a stigma

laid upon the poor by the unfair judgement of the successful, upper classes of society. It is easier for these upper classes to accept the lie that the poor are defective and can't be helped because it is cheaper not to care to help with "expensive" social programs. The only "expensive" part of these programs is that they don't have huge profits for the corporations. The corporations would rather see the nations wealth funneled into profitable ventures, not for the welfare of the poorer class. The true expense is when these programs are cut and the poor suffer. The expense is the burden that the poor must carry with their suffering. These programs are what the masses of poor people depend upon to survive in a world that is becoming more and more costly. The poor are fellow humans and fellow citizens who also contribute to society and are being given the shaft by this society. Ride a public bus and look around and you will see it in their eyes.

[bobbolink]

8. "The only "expensive" part of these programs is that they don't have huge profits for the

corporations."

:applause: :bounce: :applause: :bounce: :applause: :bounce: :applause: :bounce:

Dang, you're good!

May I quote you????

Really, that is so right on target!

[balantz]

9. Use it up.

It belongs to the people.

[bobbolink]

46. Thanks much. and I have one back for you.... spoken by a friend today.

"America is where we run a race and the winners get money and triumph and promotion and and we honor them in every way.

"We shoot the losers."

[balantz]

51. That's a good one

Also, when the race finally gets under way, and the losers are shot (either in reality or metaphorically) it is run by one marrionette holding both sets of strings.

[Two Americas]

55. there is no expense involved

There is no expense to feeding and housing people. Human beings are not a burden, a cost, a drain, a waste of time or money, an expense or a commodity on the market.

There is no expense involved in taking care of our fellow human beings.

There is an enormous - almost incalculable - cost involved in neglecting the needs of the people.

[maryf]

15. Virtue is its own reward...

And if one read "Justine" by De Sade your point in your last sentence would be beautifully illustrated.

(I know I've said it before so forgive me if I'm being repetitive), I read once that happiness comes from something good happening to you, joy comes from making another happy...if the right choices make me unhappy (being punished severely may just do that), but helps make another happy, I'll be joyful! But then again, it could be twisted to say doing things for others is a selfish act to gain Joy. If it works as a ploy to get more selfish people thinking of ways to make others happy...So be it!

The most dangerous book I've heard of in regards to increasing selfishness in this society is "the Secret", I've not read it, but from all I've read and heard of it, it pushes the "think and it will be so" credo to the point of delusion, and takes all its readers out of the realm of helping those in dire straits by placing the blame on the victims of society.

[balantz]

20. I was invited to watch "The Secret"

It was at a gathering at an upper middle class house of a pleasant (cough cough) couple without kids making about $150,000 to $200,000. It was a Nikken party, magnets and supplements and such for the health, sold in a heiarchical system where the sponsors get a piece of each of their underlings. Sort of like Amway I guess. All the people but three or four of us were a part of the Nikken group and were helping to sell the system. They were very upbeat and positive. It was all a marketing farce that could work if one is really into pumping a product with a self-improvement, get rich scheme driving the sales pitch. You really have to be well off with lots of social connections to have a social network with enough people under you financially who want what you have, and what you are striving for. Perhaps one could belong to a church and make it work within that structure.

So we first watched this movie, "The Secret", It was based on a probable truth that all of life is abundance coming from a common source and everything and everyone is connected to that source of abundance. The movie was presented well with a number of new age feel-good gurus in the movie pimping the philosophy. I'll admit that I was jazzed a bit after watching it.

The dangerous part was that all one has to do is believe that source will give you anything you need or desire, and all you have to do is be positive and expect that abundance to come to you. If you are negative and stay closed you will not attract abundance from the source. That's all good and well for the well off people at that meeting who were already accustomed to making wealth and already had many social connections. For someone like me it would have been much more difficult to find people to sell the product to, and so the philosophy behind "The Secret" may not work as well for a poor person like me.

The friend I went with was convinced to buy a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff and set up in business with the company, but hasn't made a penny because she is not an aggressive sales type person and doesn't have the social connections to sell much of those products. But she did have a credit card and added that couple thousand onto her already horrible debt.

[maryf]

21. Ya see

Your friend just wasn't positive enough! poor dupe!

[bobbolink]

23. Oh yes, that "negative" "positive" thinking stuff is VERY popular with "progressives".

And it's just one more form of blaming the victim.

It's hideously evil.

[Two Americas]

54. it is all there is to it

The New Age social and religious concepts have been gaining more and more control over modern liberalism, and have reached full and ultimate expression in this election cycle, to the point that I now think it is accurate to say that New Age spirituality is synonymous with "progressive" - it is the definition of "progressive" and it is all there is to it now.

I agree that it is hideously evil. I also think that it is the root cause of all of the failures of the left. It is also the source of the power and influence of the religious right, and the main reason that blue collar people vote Republican or do not vote at all.

[lildreamer316]

57. Balantz,

I am sorry that was your exposure and reaction to "The Secret". Mine has been quite different.
I first came upon the movie for free online. I now have it in my possession, not ever having paid one cent for it.

It came to me and my family at a time when we were barely making it...food on the table was hard; arguing and begging for utilities to give up "one more week" or maybe a couple of days? My husband, bless his heart, had wrecked our only family car, and was in court (attorneys + everything else for fees) and facing mandatory 30 days incarcerated. I did not work at the time.

It was..not the worst,I am sure, but not very bright times, indeed.

The movie helped me to see things from a different perspective; to realize that *I* was more in control of myself than I was giving myself credit for; that I could *choose* how to react and how to feel about a situation.

Today, we are well on our way to being secure. We got another car last year that lasted exactly as long as it needed too. THEN, we qualified for a car with a loan, something neither of us thought we could *ever* do!! (we do not have debt, no CCs, etc....but no credit either!). The payment are right where we can afford. The insurance, too..suprising after the wreck and court stuff he had.

My husband has served his time; one day a week for almost eight months instead of the dreaded 30 days straight...allowing him to get a WONDERFUL job (that did not mind his jail time!! REALLY!!). This job, within the year, moved him up to an even better position, and we got the hint today that he may be headed for an even BETTER position within the next year or two!!

Last weekend he made...well, enough to cover our bills for a month and a half (we still do live fairly simply, however).

I tell you all this not to say that "The Secret" either completely is responsible for our better fortunes, or failed in that we did not visualize even better for ourselves, but to say that it profoundly made an impact on how we perceived the world and in turn, ourselves. We both modified our actions to exude the most positive attitudes that we were able. Perfection in this is not strived for, just to do the best you can. Thinking "positive" was,if not (provably) necessarily a help, certainly a better feeling way of dealing with our situations that being upset and stressed and worried..and focused on the problems we faced, instead of the joys in life.

The key to the "Secret" is to just, as in many things, take from it what rings true to you, and leave what does not. The push towards materialism in the movie turned many off, and I understand that. I believe it was made that way to reach the widest audience possible, to strike a common chord in the collective consciousness that is the consumerism-obsessed society in which we live. I believe the authors/producers wanted to get the message out that underlies the 'prosperity' overlay..that true prosperity is a wealth of self-confidence, and love for yourself and others around you. I truly believe that one cannot fully love another without loving one's self - and this is just another path to learning to honor and love the source/divine/amazing natural creation that is you.

When Oprah had her two shows about this, I did watch, and some very enlightening and interesting discussion happened. At one point, she says in reference to a point about "The Secret" ..."How can I serve?"

How can I serve? is an integral part of using "The Secret" in my life, and, I hope, is becoming so in many others. As I see for myself how changing my attitude is helping me to become not only more materially secure, but more secure in my relationships with my husband and my son; my friends and my extended family; with the concept of the world and the collective conciousness (my fellow human beings); I become even more motivated to serve, to help, to try to do what I can. I want to set a good example for my son.

It is a shame that these people at the house party were using the movie only as a selling motivator, and, it seems, to insiduously move attendees to invest in their little enterprise. But that is not really "The Secret"'s fault. Again, we are being challenged, one by one, to think and evaluate everything for OURSELVES. Blindly following a 'religion'' 'belief system'; or 'cult' of ANY kind is something we all need to put behind us, for the good of the country and probably the world.

The Secret is not supposed to be a belief system or a religion; just a different way of looking at life and yourself. The point is to CHOOSE, and make an autonomous choice, and if it does not seem to feel right to you, that's ok too. I do believe that part was lost in translation, or maybe it was assumed that everyone already knew that...I dunno.

ANYway, I've soapboxed enough for you to deal with, I am sure. I hope that I've been clear. I also do want to state that I don't totally agree with the way the movie comes across.."If you don't get that NEW CAR you've been visualizing, you only have yourself to blame!" is a bit much to swallow. I admit it is possible that if I had tried harder, I'd be driving an 08 now, instead of an 03, but my brain just did not accept that as a realistic possibility. I don't really know if that kind of visualization can work. I can say, however, that our general, overall goals are being reached; and an overall positive trend has ensued. Whether that is due solely to hard work or partially to "The Secret"; is not provable in any scientific way. But it sure did change my (and husband's)attitude - and I do think that made a difference.

Moderation in everything has always worked for me - bottom line. Even in beliefs and practices. I don't fully condemn something like this, but I don't fully believe it is the be-all end-all either. And I can definitely get on board with the idea that like attracts like. It's never done me a bit of good to be negative all the time. It's not fun, either!

It has made my journey to this point, happier. I think that is enough to make it worthwhile, for me.


I EDIT TO ADD: As I perused DU, this jumped out at me in relation:

"What kind of Church teaches despair and anger? One designed to keep the working class divided against itself, so that it will not unite to challenge the ruling class."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3409101

[bobbolink]

63. We do NOT "choose" how to feel. Our emotions come to us.

Our choice is to be honest with ourselves about what we feel, and honest with others, or to play games with ourselves and others.

I will agree that many people aren't SAFE places to share real feelings with.

BUT... and here is the kicker.... COMPASSION means literally "to feel with".

If we can't fEEL our own emotions, and be honest with them, and grow with those emotions, we will NOT be able to feel with others.

And that, in a nutshell, is what I see as wrong with our society today.

NO empathy.

NO compassion.

People dead emotionally.

[maryf]

66. People have lost the perception

to even know what they themselves are feeling, they've been numbed...by the media, society, "feel good" drugs. My mother was on Zoloft when my father died, she couldn't cry...went off it soon after. But it not just the drugs, its the whole "American" lifestyle where things are what we love...

[bobbolink]

71. We're so afraid of emotions.... afraid we'll "lose control", so we develop all sorts of

denials and walls around our hearts.

It has created a very harsh and uncaring society.

I don't know what it will take to break down those walls.

As for your mother.... that is the way, now, and it's another way of losing ourselves for the sake of gaining $$$$ for Pharmco.

When JFK was killed, Bobby Kennedy went into a HUGE funk. His depression was so deep and so lasting that people around him were worried about him. Today, of course, he would have been drugged to the eyeballs. BUT... he stayed with his "dark night of the soul", and dealt with it all in his heart.

As he came out of it, his heart was more open, and he developed that deep compassion for poor people. It was very clear... one could see it in his eyes. He KNEW, he FELT, and he EMPATHIZED.

Poor people may be a lot of things, but most of us are very honest because it's one of the very few things we have left. Poor people could SEE his heart in his eyes. They KNEW that he KNEW.

Going all the way through his grief must have been terrible. YET.... look what the result was.

Can we do less?

:hug:

an excerpt from today's message I receive daily in email:

Finding Happiness

Happiness is accepting and choosing life, not just submitting grudgingly to it. It comes when we choose to be who we are, to be ourselves, at this present moment of our lives; we choose life as it is, with all its joys, pain, and conflicts. Happiness is living and seeking the truth, together with others in community, and assuming responsibility for our lives and the lives of others. .... We are not just seeking to be what others want us to be or to conform to the expectations of family, friends, or local ways of being. We have chosen to be who we are, with all that is beautiful and broken in us. We do not slip away from life and live in a world of illusions, dreams, or nightmares. We become present to reality and to life so that we are free to live according to our personal conscience, our sacred sanctuary, where love resides within us and we see others as they are in the depth of their being. We are not letting the light of life within us be crushed, and we are not crushing it in others. On the contrary, all we want is for the light of others to shine.

Jean Vanier, Finding Peace, pp. 54-55

[balantz]

6. Excellent post Bobbie, thanks n/t

[bobbolink]

10. Thanks, balantz. One of the things that has affected me a lot in life

was a group I participated in with non-violence many years ago.

To make a long story longer.. I mean shorter :), we ended up in a huddle, all holding on to each other. :grouphug:

Well, that was fine, and it felt great... was a spirit-lifter to all involved.

BUT... our wise leader didn't leave it at that.... he asked us to look around the room, and imagine how it would look to an outsider coming in the door.

Would s/he feel welcome?

Would s/he feel like approaching?

How would we respond to an "outsider" at that moment of our hugginess?

Questions well worth keeping in mind, and asking ourselves when we're involved in all this, and think we have peace uppermost in our minds.

[maryf]

12. cheers!

I like the Jewish tradition of having an extra place set at the table for the stranger who might come by...:grouphug:

Again Bobbie the mindfulness and concern for humanity shines through, thanks!

[bobbolink]

13. "Jewish tradition of having an extra place set at the table for the stranger "

Now that brings a tear to my eye...:cry:

We have so much to learn from others, if we but would.

Thanks!

:hug:

[maryf]

17. Thank you!

We need to keep an open heart and mind, and think of all the learning we could gain! :)

[bobbolink]

24. "think of all the learning we could gain! "

That's the ending of my talk.... that we USians, in our pumped up elitist way, looked down on Africans and enslaved them without ever considering that maybe we had something to learn from their beautiful traditions.

We tried to eradicate the Indians (and succeeded quite well) without ever considering that we could learn from their beautiful beliefs and traditions.

We conquered the Hawaiians without ever considering that we could learn from their beautiful traditions.

NOW the time has come to learn from poor people. STOP looking down on us and trying to "FIX" us... just open your hearts and LEARN.

[balantz]

14. Groups tend to become exclusionary.

The embrace needs to keep an open door to inclusiveness, even to those who may not see it quite the same as the group does, but can see there is a real need for their participation, and so they do come with sincerity to give and to learn, and wishing to expand in understanding and expand in capacity to share their unique gifts with the community. Sometimes each and every person and group become closed in some way and don't quite grasp the whole picture. Ultimately there is no-one who is left out of the group because we are all of us connected in many ways. The group hug needs to always be more like a chain with open ends that is always capable of accepting others from every direction, seeing that being closed can only become the destruction of implosion.

[maryf]

16. Yay!

:loveya: :pals: :pals: :pals: :loveya: :pals: :pals: :pals: :loveya:

Hows this?

[bobbolink]

35. I agree completely. What's sad is that when someone points this out, about their beloved group,

the denial and defense starts.

And usually comes to the point of blaming the prophet who points it out.

:shrug:

[cornermouse]

18. May I suggest an alternative?

I "belong" to my family; my kids, my siblings, my surviving parent, in spite of the fact that some of them are republican. I joined DU because I have values that were more similar to theirs than the republicans when I joined. That said, I don't "belong" to DU.

I think the reason people don't stand up for poverty is because the republican party has been very successful in simultaneously labeling poverty as failure and themselves as the party of winners. Nobody likes to think of themselves as a failure or as a loser. I think it also explains why people, who support policies that will ultimately harm them, do so.

As regards your post elsewhere to saracat? I would say that saracat and others are simply trying to escape certain posters who I shall not name. Given the repeated and continual threats that certain posters have been making, who can blame them for that? I can't and I won't.

[maryf]

19. Unfortunately

If it has been a republican plot, many who would call themselves liberal democrats are complicit, and, IMO, we frequently do have the popular issue du jour, if you will. Unfortunately the plight of the extreme poor or even social justice is very rarely one of the focus issues.

I sympathize with saracat's and other's need to form their own group, in a way. When a group I was in started banning folks for being realistically critical, we formed an email group to continue our discussion and info share. It helped, and we were open to others joining...:pals: thanks for joining the chain here!

[bobbolink]

22. "many who would call themselves liberal democrats are complicit"

That's exactly IT, yet there is an unwillingness to discuss this openly.

Why is that?

Whenever I or anyone else tries to ask why poverty is not an important issue on DU, we get the same brushoffs.

Why is that?

"Unfortunately the plight of the extreme poor or even social justice is very rarely one of the focus issues."

Why is that?

Why can't we honestly and truthfully examine this?

[cornermouse]

25. No one knows what to do to resolve or alleviate

poverty right now. Given the fact that Bush has used his "war" as a cover for his cuts and voters hatred of paying taxes I'm not sure what can be done. No one in a position of power wants to take any responsibility or accountability and I don't look for it to improve under McCain for reasons that we all know or Obama given his lack of actual voting record.

[bobbolink]

28. Actually, a LOT of people know. It's just not important.

It's waaaay past time to stop blaming * for everything.

[maryf]

30. Yep

He's just part of the paradigm thats been building for decades...

[bobbolink]

45. Absolutely. Many disastrous cuts have been made in Dem misadministrations.

But we don't want to face that.

Also, a lot of really dirty destroying of low-income housing for gentrification and red-lining went on quite a long time ago that set the stage for the appearance of homelessness.

Here in Colorado, there is NO law protecting the rights of renters. You are literally at the mercy of the landlord. Colorado ranks with Arkansas as the only TWO states that have no habitability protection laws!

Yet, even with the Dems in control of the state legislature, and a Dem governor, that can't be changed.

Why?

Because there are so many Dems who own rental properties, and protest changing the law. Many of them are in the legislature.

Having a roof cave in and there's nothing you can do about it isn't the fault of *. It's the direct fault of Dems who care ONLY for their own interests.

[maryf]

49. Thats horrible!

The laws in NYS are really pretty stringent, doesn't stop negligent landlords because so many tenants don't know the laws and they get duped, but it does help, I think. I can't believe the people have no recourse!! Argh!

[cornermouse]

34. Okay.

What is your solution? Mine requires money via tax money which Bush has wasted elsewhere and which the voting public typically almost never pass.

[bobbolink]

36. Please excuse me, but I'm really tired of this usual DU response.

Go ahead and blame bush if that makes you happy.

Just shrug as people die, and blame bush.

I'm really very exhausted from that.

[cornermouse]

39. You think I have never had to wash clothes

for the kids and myself in the tub without any laundry detergent because the washer was broke and I didn't have any money for the laundromat? You think I didn't have to live in a house with a hole in the floor that I covered with a cement block so no one else would fall through it? You think I have never had to use food stamps to survive?

You said everyone knows the solution. Keeping in mind that I'm only one person and have no control over how taxes get spent, what is the solution? I don't know what it is at this point. I just know that my solution isn't gonna happen any time soon.

[bobbolink]

44. You really seem to take off on some assumptions, don't you?

I confronted your standard blaming of bush, and I get a long response about laundry?

I'm not in the mood to argue with you about this.. as I said, if you want to keep hiding behind bush, have at it.

Otherwise, many of us post Action Requests periodically on DU, where you could actually take some action, rather than demand that *I* have all the answers. There is much you can do, and it doesn't take a lot of effort to find those things.

Just being willing to read some books would provide you with answers, if you would be willing to do that.

Just for example...... if we "progressives" demanded a reduction in the home mortgage tax write off for affluent people, MANY more low-income homes could be built with that money. You see? It isn't that bush is the problem... it's that we hide behind him and don't DEMAND that our Dems, who ARE in power, do what's right.

That's one small example.

There are many others.

You can find them if you're interested.

[cornermouse]

48. Trying to figure out what I ever did to you.

I have no idea.

I haven't forgotten what it feels like to be poor. It's nearly impossible to forget that kind of fear and desperation. You didn't like my answer that we needed to restore funding and the safety net so you ignored it. You assumed wrongly that I don't blame the democrats simply because at this point, I identify Bush as the Offender-in-Chief. If you want to assume that I'm affluent or that I have time and energy to do anything outside of work and home responsibilities, go ahead. I won't try to stop you.

[Two Americas]

56. a suggestion

If you are willing to consider this idea...

Democrats and liberals fully and completely support most of the social and political program that we blame "Bush" for - they share and actively promote the premises and the assumptions upon which the "Bush" program rests. We see it vehemently expressed in no uncertain terms right here every day, and on every single thread about the homeless or about poverty.

The difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Democrats want to believe they "care" about suffering, injustice, and poverty. That "care" and a dime will get you a cup of coffee. Well, actually it won't. But $3.79 will, and for those controlling every aspect of the thinking and policies in modern liberalism and in the party, that is affordable. For the rest of the people in the country, it is just another cruel joke.

We can best see the difference between liberals and conservatives if we think about pets. Liberals "care" about pets, and love them and think they need kindness and understanding. Conservatives think that pets need discipline and punishment. That is also exactly the difference between how liberals and conservatives see the people. That difference - liberals are "nicer" or at least talk as though they were - is the basis for all claims to the moral high ground by liberalism. What never gets examined or discussed, is that treat people nicely or harshly, in both cases the gentrified and aristocratic leadership of liberalism and conservatism see the people as pets. Worse actually. Stories here about homeless dogs or cats get far more attention, sympathy and action than stories about homeless human beings ever do.

No one ever tells a homeless or abused pet that they "made the wrong choices," either, nor treats them as though they were deficient or defective.

I strongly believe that once we can face and accept the fact the the few who control the discussion and the political left care more about dogs and cats than they do about their fellow human beings, we can begin to make progress on these issues.

The dogs and cats that were refugees from Katrina have fared better than the people who lived there. That is the true obscenity, and we cannot blame "Bush" for that.

[bobbolink]

59. "homeless dogs or cats get far more attention"

My "pet" peeve.

"The dogs and cats that were refugees from Katrina have fared better than the people who lived there."

Do you have any links or sources for that. I want to stick it in a few faces.

[Two Americas]

60. I will see what I can find

Or maybe someone else (maryf is a fabulous researcher hint hint lol) can find some data. I was amazed, in the little rural community I am in hundreds and hundreds of miles from New Orleans, how many Katrina dogs and cats people had adopted and how much gushing bs I heard about that. I saw no human refugees being taken in, nor did I hear anyone talking about human refugees. I would bet that a much higher percentage of the dogs and cats have found permanent stable homes than the people have.

[bobbolink]

62. How obtuse can you get...

Those poor widdle kitties and puppies were never DRUNK or STONED.

:silly:

[bobbolink]

72. I guess the dry humor of that was missed.

:shrug:

[maryf]

74. I thought it was funny

But I did read it twice!! :)

[maryf]

64. Thanks?? ;)

Actually I will see what I can find, TA. As much as I love my pets, I was so proud that one of my student's subjects for their socio-political artwork was just this subject, how people care more for the animals than for the people, it was a strong piece, and he surprised and delighted me with his insight! Not the kid I would have guessed!

editted to add winkie!

[Two Americas]

65. sorry

I shouldn't have given you an assignment.

[maryf]

68. That ok TA!

I really will try to check it out! I should have added the winkie sign when I wrote thanks, it was in jest!! When is the question, but if its too long a time, I'll make it a thread!

[maryf]

69. Initial results

All came up on the animals' side, I may ask my student tomorrow...

[bobbolink]

70. I'm really glad to know there are younguns seeing this reality!

Tell him I appreciate his understanding!

268 posts, eh?

The first 50 were the hardest...

:rofl:

[maryf]

73. Yeah

I can get to be a blabbermouth, and probably should withhold my posts except for "gems of wisdom";) but then I'd still be well below 50. STFU is always a welcome term when necessary!! I say it to myself quite a bit! :hi:

I will definitely pass the word to my student! anyway to encourage the good mind and mindfulness! Thanks!

[maryf]

76. PS

Talked to my student, even told him about the homeless people who post on the internet. He was very interested in the NOLA pet vs. people thing. Thanks for asking me to talk to him, he really responded well, activist in the making perhaps!!

[bobbolink]

77. Thank you! Jim Wallis says that our only hope re: poverty is the next generation.

Thank you for building on that!

:hug:

[maryf]

78. Its my job!

Much as I don't like the idea of enforced "character" education, my job does include teaching my students about the truth, and providing them with opportunities to search and decide for themselves what truth is!

[bobbolink]

61. Could you please point out where I assumed you were affluent?

That's what I meant by taking off on assumptions.

I never said anything of the kind, yet you are making a huge deal of it.

And the main point of what I posted gets lost.

[maryf]

40. Spread the truth is part of a solution

Make people aware of how huge the problem is, you never know where one word can spread. Think of all the homeless children, all the folks who may have shelter but have to decide between food and heat. The people who lose their homes due to medical bills, loss of job, situation, death in the family. Think of those who spend half their paychecks on getting to their minimum wage jobs. Then tell somebody, it can't hurt. If they ask you what to do, and you don't have an answer, tell them what I said, spread the truth!

[cornermouse]

41. Thank you.

[maryf]

42. No need for thanks

Just talk alot and not just to folks you know. I've had some great conversations with people waiting in line, in the groceries, lots of places. Either they share more, or learn, or walk away, but the truth will out...and people do have hearts, it just takes some major surgery to get them working right sometimes.

[bobbolink]

47. "The failure to resolve homelessness ........

"The failure to resolve homelessness carried on throughout every administration and every Congress,

both Democrat and Republican.

Mesmerized by versions of the theory of trickle down economics, they have been more concerned with the welfare of wealthy corporations than the well-being of people. They have failed to re-establish adequate support for affordable housing, and have relentlessly dismantled – piece-bypiece – the basic social safety net and protections for workers that could have prevented many people in the United States from becoming homeless. No matter what else we might do, as long as this trend continues, homelessness and poverty will continue to exist in the United States."
Without Housing

[Two Americas]

52. and never will, either

We will never know how to solve poverty, because poverty is not the problem.

There would be no poverty were it not for the rapaciousness of others, the few, and public policies that support and reward them. We have been conditioned to think that poverty is inevitable - and it is, so long as we are committed to helping the few at the expense of the many. The idea that the poor need "help" and that the wealthy don't is a lie. The wealthy are wealthy because they are already benefiting from massive welfare. Poor people are needed - and people are forced into poverty - as a social control, as part of giving the rapacious, the exploitative, the cheating and lying "winners" all of our respect, admiration, legal protections and keep a class of downtrodden people held down so that those few can feel special and superior. All of this is by intention and conscious choice, and we all participate in it voluntarily or involuntarily. Every time you hear someone say "he must be doing something right, look how rich he is" picture desperately hungry children in your mind, or homeless elderly people.

We lie about all of this to ourselves and to each other every single day. Those lies are the root cause of poverty and suffering.

[balantz]

26. Because it has been on a backburner for SO long now

And because the imposed stereotypes are accepted and nobody wants to identify with anything defective. There are "other" problems to worry about, like higher gas prices, etc. It is easier, cheaper and more socially acceptable to agree with the stereotypes and let "the government" deal with it. Unfortunately "the government" hardly does deal with the problems of poverty anymore.

Here is an example of the discrepencies of how two different segments of society, existing side by side, can be affected by and may treat, or not be able to treat one scenario that can affect both segments.


If you are connected to money and have a drug problem your family or friends will likely bail you out, either out of love, duty or even to save face in the community. Or perhaps it will be managed and covered up.

If you are poor and have a drug problem none of those options are open to you. What's worse is you are subject to the condemnations of society and dealt with accordingly by public institutions. Instead these unfortunate souls end up quickly losing everything including their kids and find themselves on the street to fend for themselves, in jail, or dead. And good luck hiring a good attorney to help you from falling down those social waste-bins.

The first group will stand a better chance at retaining their lives and livelihoods. The second group will not have as many resources available to do so.

Sure there are programs available for the poor, but they are under-funded. The poor would be more quickly policed by such agencies like CPS, while the affluent would likely have other avenues available to avoid that kind of treatment.

[maryf]

29. We really need to put it out front

and the gas prices actually may stimulate the cause. Already I'm hearing from people at work that the cost is killing them, and more than a few have asked "what about the poor people, how can they manage?", having students that are quite poor maybe is bringing it to the front. The district is very republican, even the teachers, but they are starting to wake up, still drowsy...but the reality is sinking in...I hope.

[balantz]

31. As soon as there are a lot more people suffering poverty

then people will begin to see.

But by that time the oligarchy will have what and who they want in place to take care of us.

They have all our resources and their predatory mentality so they are always one or two steps ahead.

[bobbolink]

33. That's what people keep saying. I doubt it.

As I said in my post below, the HOUSING CRISIS! is only about muddleclass housing... the lack of low-income housing is still invisible.

I don't really see that changing unless/until enough DEMs develop a conscience and start making this an important issue (or Edwards does an Al Gore on poverty!!!), or poor folk stop killing themselves and start rioting and burning.

It always seems to need to come to violence before people are willing to open their eyes.

:cry:

[balantz]

37. It's the way of lemmings and sheeple.

There is a good chance that a WHOLE lot of people that are just making it, somewhere between poverty and muddle-class, who will experience homelessness and shortage of affordable housing. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you know that everything is planned well in advance by the oligarchy. The well-off won't suffer, but more and more lower enders will swell the ranks of the poor. And they do have housing for such a crisis, houising reminiscent of what was provided for the Japanese-Americans in WWII.

[Two Americas]

53. damn

They already see. The people are already hurting, they already see everything they need to see.

Don't wish more suffering on people. Stop blaming the people.

The ones who are stopping progress on this, controlling the narrative, controlling politics and the media, are the upscale liberals - they are not going to be hurting any time soon. Nor are they going to stop supporting "Bush" - and make no mistake about it, almost ALL party activists and liberals support 99% of the Reagan-Bush political program.

[bobbolink]

32. Will you please, for me, thank your co-workers who are thinking of us?

Because from everything I've seen, we poor folk are once again LOCKED OUT.

HOUSING CRISIS!!

Well, that's the muddleclass housing crisis, only. Nevermind that the low-income housing crisis is worse, has and is causing even death, and has gone on for DECADES now. That's still ignored, because the muddleclass is visible--poor folk aren't.

That's one example.

So, I very much appreciate people who are actually thinking of us. They are few. Please let them know it's appreciated and ALSO that there ARE things they can do.

[maryf]

38. will do!

and have done! Its where my being an educator takes on a different meaning and role...

[maryf]

27. Case in point of complicity through ignorance, inaction???

This has to be one of the most ignorant OP's I've read here. I just pm'd it to you Bobbie, before I came here, but thought others maybe should see it? I posted 3 or 4 times and then was upset that I actually helped keep it alive. On second thought though, there are some good responses in regards to poverty from some good posters, its a huge thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3404299&mesg_id=3406957


Argh! the back pedaling is something else, and the support for the ignorance is sickening!

[bobbolink]

43. A brilliant letter in today's Denver Post illustrates this.. we need to learn from the ants!

I can't find it online, and had to transcribe it, so if you like the story as much as I did, this is the only place I knew you can find it, unless your city gets The Denver Post. ^_^

What's really to blame for home prices under 1-70?
by Tom Anthony

Maybe I was trying to save a little money on fish food, but when I saw the swarm of sugar ants building under the stoop I scooped up a cup of God's creatures, took them in and deposited them in my aquarium. They then commenced a circular jungle-gym antic that, amazingly, seemed to keep them all from drowning. There on the water's surface a dimple of swarming ants kept each other alive with the strange but workable tactic of hauling the underwater ants onto the floating ants until they could catch some air, and then each taking their turn in the "body raft" keeping the others afloat. The key here being, they all got their chance on top, they all got their duty on bottom, and the raft didn't lose buoyancy or mass as a result.

Before I rescued that little ball of ant energy and put it back under the stoop, I could clearly imagine that if the ants on top decided to fight their way into dominance, eventually the waterlogged ants below would sink and before long the "top dogs" would be dog-paddling with the rest.

[maryf]

50. WOW!

wow, wow, wow, that is so great, thanks! thats one to share!!

[redqueen]

58. Based on everything I've heard...

the most popular reason given seems to be that people don't like to think of themselves as 'poor' so they refuse to join those causes that would make it seem as if they are or ever were poor.

So... maybe after we have modern-day Hoovervilles... maybe then people will get over their need to act as if they're 'better than'.

[maryf]

67. Its so sad

It may come to that...

[Two Americas]

75. kick

Kicked and saved.