ugly, ugly, ugly

[Two Americas]

Man is it getting ugly out there.

You know what is going on here? People are not so much opposed to Edwards. They aren't really Democrats, at least nothing like the Democrats from the 30's through at least the 80's. Yet we are the ones who are crazy for saying the party has moved far to the right?

In the last couple of days people have responded to my posts with this:

"We will always have the poor. You can't change that."

"Wrong! People are making more money than ever before!"

"Sure Reagan was bad for the uber-left. I am not denying that, nor is Obama."

"The old radicals from the 60's need to get out of the way with their obsolete ideas."

"The people on the bottom will always be there. Some people are just smarter at making money than others."

[adnelson60087]

1. Wow, how far have we fallen? It seems the Right has won

and the majority of Democrats don't even know it...Is it any wonder our country is on the road to ruin?

[Two Americas]

2. reality check

How is it that Democrats are so unwelcome on what is supposed to be a Democratic board? The hostility toward what once were just standard middle of the road Democratic party ideas is overwhelming and fanatical.

[AndyA]

3. We just have to stick together and present the facts whenever we're confronted

with that crap.

I've heard, "The Reagan years were good years for America." :puke:

The ignorance of people is mind boggling!

[Plucketeer]

4. I believe.........

....... that we're seeing the fruit of the age of gloss and phoniness. People are willing and ready to participate, but they're people that have been SO LONG basted with the juice of celebrity everything, that there's no reality left to move them! It's all one big, contrived reality show where the subplot and the side deals are just a game.
We've got a ludicrously expensive conflict being waged on a national credit card - so's the populace doesn't feel the pinch and therefor won't rise up to put an end to it. A little flag-waving, a perpetuated, and ghostly enemy to justify the plot, and you have a power-grab swindling going on RIGHT under all the poor dupes noses. They've made stupid alliances to stop the body count and now they can quietly set up a permanent presence there while they impress upon us at home that it's important we play and spend as tho there's no worries at all!
Left - Right, they don't care. It's all gonna be the same in the end. The only thing sHillary and Balack Obama provide is convenient cover thanks to their celebrity of race and gender. If you think Corporate America cares - see which one they singled out to finanace! And don't be surprized if you surmize that they musta liked 'em both! They DO!

[ClericJohnPreston]

5. If I may add

I agree with the premise that we are cultivating the fruits of a longtime plan, hatched many years ago by those with a prescient knowledge of the future.

Unfortunately for us, those people worked for the interests that are antithetical to our cause. Television and the other media were recognized as vehicles for both numbing down sensitivities over time and of creating the minds malleable enough for manipulation.

In a sense, we few on this forum, represent the "Neo" of Keanu Reeves in "The Matrix". For some odd reason, maybe like me you share a "rebel" philosophy, we have refused to drink the Kool-Aid, are immune to media posturing and corporate backed manipulations. Whatever it is , it seems we clearly see the problem where others do not.

And this is an important point. When involved in threads like "Two Americas" points out, we will run into the opposite mentality which we share here. We will meet idealogues, deeply entrenched minds prone to the malleability we refuse to accept. I call it, "the talking to walls" syndrome, for no matter how clear and unequivocal the proofs, these people will just mot see it! Ever. So, your time and calm will be wasted on these people.

In some ways I feel sorry for them. They actually believe they are "thinking", when in fact they are merely spitting out facile platitudes they have assimilated, like the good little drones they are. On the other hand, these tools of manipulation are threatening my Democracy as much as those who have designed to take it from me. So, they are the enemy of reason and logic.

Eisenhower identified the enemy long ago and watching an old movie the other night on cable, "Rollerball", showed that some people foresaw the arising of the Corporate State, where Nations fall before globalization at the hands of a Corporatocracy. That group then numbs down the citizenry, like the bread and circuses of the Romans, with diverting games and distractions. "American Idol" anyone?

Well, I just want to say that I enjoy the LITERATE conversation I can have in this forum. This post, in GD or GDP, would be explosive, calling out every freak of the variety that "Two Americas" referenced. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE is a bitch, and the heads out there would throb from Truth. So, it is easier to dismiss intelligent arguments like the ones, without reading, I know "Two Americas" is posting.

In a way, "Two Americas", I was letting you know a few days ago, when in my thread about taking the gloves off, that you would find I was CORRECT, in assuming that the nice guy approach could fail miserably. Why? Therse ingrained and entrenched minds have been conditioned for years to be the way you found. You see, as a Trial Lawyer, I recognize manipulation from miles away and also know it's effects.

We reap what we sow. We are the unfortunate inheritors of an upside down world where non-thinkers, acting on knee-jerk reactions programmed into them, actually believe they are "thinking", when they are mere human "automotons", without critical-thinking skills.

I have often contemplated what could lead us out of this darkness. Any thoughts before I reveal mine?

[saracat]

9. I agree absolutely with your statements Cleric John.

I somewhat referenced some of those factors in a PM I sent regarding not "getting" Barack Obama to a poster who had asked if others felt that way.

Sometimes, If you can't buy into the cognitive dissonance you can feel as though you are losing your grip on reality.The Obama phenomenon is a perfect illustration of this. I have been involved in the the theater and media my whole career. I have taught speech as well.Barack Obama in my opinion is not a particularly good speaker. He is average. He has a slight hesitation in his speech and sometimes stammers.Generally he speaks in a monotone punctuated by bouts of repetition and elevated volume in an attempt to mimic the Baptist preacher style that Jesse Jackson does so well.His fans will say"oh, but you must experience Barack "in person".He is phenomenal". Well, I have , three times. It does not get any better.

What I find significant is I have never been able to remember anything Barack has ever talked about.Moment after a speech , I have asked others around me, "what did he speak about?" and with loopy smiles they assure me he was "wonderful".But no one remembers what he spoke about.

I think the media, from the day Barack spoke at the Boston Convention, has been in collusion to manufacture Barak as the perfect candidate. Relentlessly they have pounded the message that he is our 'salvation".I had an older friend of mine who ought to know better describe Barack , at a democratic meeting, as the "greatest orator who ever lived".These over the stop assertions regarding Obama are becoming commonplace .A quick glance at Du, where he is not yet totally king, makes one aware that no objective observations or criticisms of this candidate are allowed.The endless stream of endorsements that are trumpeted everyday are becoming bizarre.The endorsements are used to deflect any doubts one might have. In my lifetime, I have never seen such a constant roll out of endorsements for any candidate.A discerning mind might question what had been done to "earn" them. A man who has yet to complete a single term as US Senator?

I believe this is a long time in the making and what frightens me is not so much "who" our front running candidates are but "who" is behind them.

[adnelson60087]

14. Bill Clinton is behind both of Hillary and Obama

they are all DLC, though Obama resigned from it around the time he announced his campaign. The reason Obama and Hillary are so bitter is because this was supposed to be Hillary's time, and Obama jumped the gun. Edwards used to be the rising-star favorite until he gave up his DLC-ish tendencies. I sincerely doubt FDR could win the presidency today...and that type of fighter is what we need. I'm glad for the $$$ I gave to John's campaign, and hope he can get heard.

[Two Americas]

10. one thing for sure

We have the best writers and thinkers. Great post ClericJohnPreston.

[ClericJohnPreston]

13. High praise indeed

coming from you "Two Americas". You are both eloquent and erudite, a rare combination.

Same for you saracat and your many thoughtful posts.

Thank you to both of you.

[bobbolink]

6. You stole my picture, you big poop...

:rofl:

It's a beauty, isn't it?

"The only thing sHillary and Balack Obama provide is convenient cover thanks to their celebrity of race and gender."

You pegged it right there!!

You know, since I was a child, I haven't been able to cry, because I was punished for crying. Lately, I'm finding myself crying quite a bit.... I'm genuinely in mourning for my country.

:cry:

I read your words, and the words of Two Americas, and all I can do is nod and cry.

Somehow, we have't been able to get through to citizens. I think it's all over but the final collapse.

:cry:

[bobbolink]

7. You're talking about what I deal with every damned day! And many times, the "progressives"

and "peace people" are the very worst!

The hurt me, and walk on me, and don't give a shit.

"We will always have the poor. You can't change that."

"Wrong! People are making more money than ever before!"

"Sure Reagan was bad for the uber-left. I am not denying that, nor is Obama."

"The old radicals from the 60's need to get out of the way with their obsolete ideas."

"The people on the bottom will always be there. Some people are just smarter at making money than others."

RIP, United States of America, it was great while it lasted.

:cry:

[ClericJohnPreston]

8. Sorry Bobbolink

I'm not ready to concede defeat at the hands of Corporatists.

There is another way.

[bobbolink]

11. You're welcome to walk in my shoes.

[Two Americas]

12. best fighter we have

Bobbolink is the best fighter and the most inspirational person we have.

[zalinda]

15. It's funny, but when someone makes a point

about John speaking to them, you hear crickets from the other side. We can spout off almost all of John's positions, and yet, they can't give us their candidates positions. They give us links to their candidates web sites. I am poor, and I may remain poor until the day I die. And, you know what, it's not being poor that gets to you. It's working day after day knowing that it will NEVER be any better. That no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you learn, someone will always take what little you have, even if that had only been hope. John has given us poor people hope, and that is something I never thought I would have again.

And, I can't understand for the life of me, what any one sees in Obama. He is like eating a cheese puff, tastes great while you have it in your mouth, but doesn't feed your hunger. I don't like Hillary, but she's the devil I know, and I trust her to do less damage.

zalinda

[Plucketeer]

16. Interesting that you take Hillary

over Obama. For me - her being a condensate of the boiling pot that's Washington DC, I'd trust her alright - trust her to be cleverly deceptive in her moves. Obama hasn't been immersed in the brine long enough to have lost his idealism. I'd think he'd be more honest.... no, maybe "CANDID", borne of his innocence. And maybe even candid is not the right word. Maybe "oopsie" is more appropriate. Hillary's less likely to let her slip(s) show, if ya know what I mean!

[zalinda]

17. Yes, I know, but I also know that she's a fighter

She learned her lesson the first time around. Obama got into national office too easy. He hasn't really been vetted. I'm afraid he'll crumble, and try to be a peace maker like Carter. At least Carter had a chance back then, but these repubs are ruthless.

And the truth is, I don't think either of them will be able to win the GE. I think that the dems who think this will be a cakewalk, are in for a rude awakening. Once the repub nominee is in place the repub machine will swing into place. A lot of money will be spent on spinning and making this guy the anti-bush, or the truthful bush, depending on who they are talking to. I think Obama will be creamed in the GE, too many old people vote, and they won't be comfortable with a black person running. The young are now rallying around Obama, but they'll be back in school and the election will be forgotten, they'll go on to more important things. I think he's the flavor of the month with them. And Clinton will get smeared with her husband, but it will be a close race. Old people will be fond of Bill and vote for her.

I know, I know, I don't have much faith in the American voting public, but damn, almost 50% voted for the squirt in office now.

zalinda

[Plucketeer]

18. Zalinda laments......

"And the truth is, I don't think either of them will be able to win the GE. I think that the dems who think this will be a cakewalk, are in for a rude awakening."

Might I ask if you've seen the polls where folks have been asked WHO (of the Dem possibles) wins EVERY TIME when matched against ANY of the GOP dolls??? Psssst.... I'll give you a little hint - He's the one casting the third shadow on all the debate stages. The one the corporate media fears the most and tries HARDEST to ignore. (Not that they'd do that to influence prospective voters, mind you! No sir - these TV networks are as "fair and balanced", and as "influence neutral" as we could hope for!)
And there's a difference between squabbling and fighting. John's made a career out of fighting - fighting for those who'd otherwise be lost under foot. The lady running for office has fought to fine tune her manuvering so that it LOOKS LIKE she's serving her constituents, while behind the scenes, she's payin' off on the IOUs from corporate financiers that make her tenure in office a bit more secure.