a question

[Two Americas]

Many people will have watched the debate by now and thought that it was just great and be enthusiastic. Others, myself included, will not think that.

What do you think is the difference there? What is it that makes some have one reaction, and others the opposite reaction to this?

[adnelson60087]

1. Does one live in fantasy land where Clinton or Obama

equal change, or does one feel the cold clammy hand of November defeat for yet another Democrat? Either way, reality will be a harsh mistress come the general election and we will WISH for a John Edwards to have been our nominee.

[Two Americas]

7. a harsh mistress indeed

That is what I am seeing as well, adnelson.

I tried to watch the debate with an open mind, and understand the enthusiasm. It was all very seductive, and it obviously resonates with some people.

One thing I noticed, is that it is very tight. The candidates are really laboring and watching their words - so much effort for so little output. By "tight" I mean that all sorts of topics need to be avoided. Here and there that required outright lies, I thought.

It is propaganda, I think. A very tightly scripted, carefully crafted message that creates a fantasy world for people. From inside that fantasy world, the people seduced by it probably cannot imagine what it looks like from the outside.

[ClericJohnPreston]

2. Hello Two Americas

Thank you, first , for your literate appearance in my thread in GDP.

As to your question, I thought the "deadbate" was as boring as watching paint dry. It is like preparing a cake without eggs or flour, the main ingredient was missing.

In this case, John Edwards loomed over the proceedings by his noteworthy absence. I could hardly bear to watch this mess, which begged for the wit and passion of John. If this is a preview of what is to come, I'll gladly tune out until the GE.

This is a CORPORATE produced Election from beginning to end, with the M$M doing the hatchet job role.

I still want to know Two Americas ( by the way, my name is MICHAEL ), where is John Edwards. His absence was not voluntary. There were subtle cues to this, from the hurried, rushed statement which were clearly not his words ( and he wanted us to know that ) to his strange affect.

WHO GOT JOHN TO RESIGN. His continued silence only bolsters this impression that something is amiss in that decision.

I can't support a candidate that has the Corporate seal of approval.

[Two Americas]

6. my notes

Here are the notes I typed to myself during and after the debate.

Sorry. It is not there.

I don't dislike either Senators Clinton or Obama. I think they are bright, talented and probably sincere and decent people. I went into listening to the debate with an open mind. If either of them started aggressively and unambiguously speaking for traditional Democratic party principles and ideals, if either of them were speaking to the other America, if either of them would be straight with us, I would get to work with enthusiasm and all would be forgiven and forgotten.

But is is not there and I am not going to pretend that it is. All you need to do is hear the health care - scratch that - insurance industry proposals, and it is over. Period. Sorry, I will not go there. The double-talking gobbledy gook they need to go through to make insurance industry programs sound as though they are health care programs - I cannot go there anymore. I have been down this road too many times. I don't want to hear about people "gaming the system" and Obama's ideas as to how to punish them. I don’t want to hear about how “we” cannot afford to take care of our people who are ill and suffering, so “we” need to make “them” take better care of themselves.

I can't listen anymore about how Democrats will do a more competent job at the same old foreign policy that protects corporate interests overseas. I can't listen to double talk about people losing their homes, that is more concerned with the interests of the banking industry then with working people.

I will vote for the nominee - unless some miracle happens in the next few months and a true pro-labor progressive (what was called "progressive a hundred years ago, not the way it is defined today) alternative emerges. But who cares? My one vote - are we all supposed to agonize over that, are we all supposed to make our own little individual decision subordinate to our concern for the many, and stop talking about anything but the horse race?

Folks, I am sorry. I truly believe that I am being very fair and open-minded about this. But I can't do this. I cannot pretend anymore. The crisis is too severe, the suffering too great, the dangers too real.

Anything would be an improvement over helplessly watching this slow motion train wreck - or, worse yet, helping it along

[ClericJohnPreston]

9. You aren't the only one

I frankly am not too quick to enbrace the enemy. The enemy of working class ideals is the power elite, the new hybrid wine-sipping elitists, who don't want to be reminded of the poor and disenfranchised, John's people.

Rather, our bold Democratic Corporate enablers have foisted two fine Corporatists our way, guaranteed to make Rupert proud, as well as Grumman and Boeing. Obama is our Trojan Horse Democrat, and Hillary Shillery is too well known as Corporate friendly to hide behind any other label; she just makes the feminist appeal.

I frankly am amazed by the number of so-called Edwards supporters , whose partisanship lasted A WHOLE DAY, before running to Obama or Hillary.

Sorry, ain't happening here.

I know what went down with John and he was forced to take a bitter pill. Sorry, but I can't root for this Party just yet. For the moment my party is:

ANTI-CORPORATIST ANARCHIST

[Two Americas]

12. I agree, by the way

There is more to the story of why Edwards quit. As you say, something is amiss.

[Yael]

3. I think that we all (being the hard core politicos) have heard

Hillary and Barack speak so often that we already know what they are going to say. We also know the points where John would break in and bring the PEOPLE back into the conversation when Hillary was of on one of her I, Me, I, Me rants or Barack was waxing poetic about nothing. ("This isn't about us" -- can't you hear him now)?

We have had ample time to listen to their messages, review their policies and make up our own minds.

Many of us may have had that "strong second", but many more of us don't.

In my case -- it is because I think both of them have too many negatives that don't outweigh the positives on things that matter TO ME.

Therefore, I can appreciate someone getting fired up about this comment or that slam -- but it is all just :popcorn: to me at this point.

My heart is out of the game now.

I hang here for the friends I have made, but I simply could care less about this upcoming election. We are trading off corporate Republicans for corporate Democrats. There is no there there.

[adnelson60087]

4. Well put Yael, well put. No there, indeed.

[Andrea]

5. It's a question that I have asked myself many times

Why do some people "get it" and others don't? It's obvious to most of us here, in this forum, that these two are just media-created puppets of the elite. Other people don't see that at all. I have asked the same thing about W so many times. It was so incredibly clear to me, right from the start, that he was a psychopathic liar. I still can't understand why some people actually bought into him. If only I could find the answer to this question, I would use it to make some great leaps for humanity.

[saracat]

8. You are all better persons than I .I refuse to even watch this alleged eebate.I agree with

ClericJohn Preston and I cannot give credence to that which was made possible by some devious method of depriving us of the one man who should have been there to speak for us.Despite Hillary's claims, we are again invisable and we are voiceless.Barak never noticed us to begin with.I cannot participate in this travesty.If I keep statintg these feelings I am going to be viewed as a Drama Queen or "sour grapes.Du wants us to "get over it and move on. I just can't ignore the corruption that may have brought us to this day.And we have yet to have any answers!

[Plucketeer]

10. What saracat

and ClericJohn say. Precisely. My olfactory sensors are failing with age, but I can still smell staged and phony at the slightest wiff.
You'll probably think I've been drinking or doing some halucenogen, but I caught snippets of the Rethug debate today and I found some honesty in Ron Paul's points. Too bad he's so "OUT THERE":crazy: on other things.

[Two Americas]

11. I'll say something worse than that even

Huckabee is relaxed and does not come across as staged and rehearsed compared to Obama and Clinton.

McCain looks like the cat that ate the canary these days, doesn't he?

[Andrea]

17. Yes, there are yellow feathers stuck to McCain's chin

I think he knows the fix is in. They needed him '04 and he sold his soul to the devil. That horrible picture of him up on stage all sweaty hugging GWB, after he had been the victim of all Rove's dirty tricks back in '00 is seared in my mind. He traded his integrity for a guarantee that he gets to be the next president. He fits right in with their plans: bombbombbomb bombbombIran!

[saracat]

19. I always thought that Hukabee had a great personality.I was absolutely shocked

when they revealed some of the chicanery that took place in Arkasnsas, such as the bribes and gifts. I liked him except for his positions on choice and being a religous nut, he seemed a populist and nice guy.But boy talk about not being what you seem. Most voters will never know that however.It is my fear they will never know about Obama either. Talk is a McCain Huckabee ticket and I am not sure that is good for us.However, I can't afford to care about it any more.

[Plucketeer]

22. Not that I think it's likely,

but WHAT IF Hillary or Obama tapped JE for the second seat??? I wonder how THAT would fly! Obama/Edwards - THAT'S a ticket I could vote for.;)

[Two Americas]

13. the answer

Well, someone answered my question for me, and what they wrote rings true - that is to say, I think it accurately describes what it is people are seeing in the two candidates.

No wonder I didn't "get" it - and I am afraid I never will.

Do You Believe in Magic?

Political campaigns are made of a combination of sugar-‘n-spice and snails-‘n-puppy dog’s tails. They are spun to the left and to the right; they include tattletales and taunts, he said/she said, half-truths and whole truths and nothing-but-the-thruths – all ultimately interpreted by We the People who have seen it all, heard it all and, in the end, will tend to make up our own minds when all is said and done.

But then there’s The Magic – it inspires, it motivates, it makes believers out of non-believers. It pushes the dark forces back and reminds us all that when we believe we can make a difference, we inevitably will. The Magic transcends space and time: it encourages us to look back on what once made us great, and reminds us that the brass ring is still there, just waiting to be grabbed and triumphantly displayed to the world. The Magic doesn’t mire itself in what-has-been, but builds on the foundation of what-could-be.

As displayed by our two last-standing candidates tonight, We've got The Magic on our side - and it is grounded not in soundbytes, but real ideas to be implemented, and real ideals worth striving for.

To the nay-sayers, the things-will-never-change crowd, the we’re-doomed-no-matter-what constituents – the non-believers in magic – I can only say this: "I’d tell ya about the magic, it would free your soul – but it’s like trying to tell a stranger ‘bout rock-‘n-roll."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4329319

No, I guess I don't believe in magic. I don't live in that world, I can't imagine living in that world, and I do not wish to live in that world.

If we are relying on magic, and if that is what we are supposed to "get" about the appeal of the two leading candidates, then may heaven help us. This may read as nice and warm and fuzzy to some people, but to me it reads as a very cruel joke.

[pamela]

14. I started to reply to that thread.

I had my response written but deleted it. There aren't enough puking emoticons in the world to express what I felt reading that.

Magic? Hardly. I saw Coke-v-Pepsi and a lot of people thinking they were being nourished by the empty calories. The only good thing about the debate tonight was the setting. It was too perfect. Kodak Theater-the home of the Oscars. Let's put on a show.

edited for spelling

[Two Americas]

15. yes!

I think you hit it pamela. It was a show.

Check out this thread -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4324492

I realized after reading the OP that the whole thing had been a show for a particular purpose, and posted this:

The goal was never to present a united front, IMHO, it was to shut down one of the two factions fighting for the heart and soul of the party. It has nothing to do with beating Republicans, rather to co-opt the people into supporting one wing of the party by drumming up fear of the Republicans.

One side was asked to stop fighting, not because it hurt our chances against the Republicans, but rather because it threatened the power of those controlling the Democratic party. It could well make us much weaker against the Republicans.

Of course every one feels good about tonight. It was a carefully orchestrated show designed to have that effect.

[AndyA]

16. It's the Kool-Aid.

Who says the GOP has an exclusive on Kool-Aid?

I didn't watch the debate last night. I just couldn't force myself to. I do not like either of the Dems running. Both are inadequate, unprepared, and do not really represent change.

Hillary Clinton is a corporate whore. She takes money from lobbyists, she has connections to big business, she's been part of the political scene for many years. Yes, she will be better than any GOPer, but it's foolish to expect that any major changes will occur. Just enough to keep the little people happy.

Barack Obama is a hypocrite and a bigot. He talks big, but his "plans" are vague at best. He's being hyped by the same corporate media that took Kucinich and Edwards down, so I am suspicious of him for that reason alone. Plus, the Rezko connection can be very bad for him down the road.

Two losers, in short.

Hillary wins to some degree by default, because she's been investigated and attacked so many times, and nothing has really stuck. Barack is an unproven in this case, and I know the GOP machine will come at our nominee full force. He's done a lousy job controlling the McClurkin and Rezko issues.

Pretty pathetic, isn't it? We had a great man with vision, a plan, and the ability to lead, but our corporate media would have none of that. Now we're stuck with two candidates who on their best day will never be half of what Edwards would have been on his worst day.

The Clinton and Obama supporters remind me of a cult. I keep thinking Jim Jones' Guyana - pass around the beverages, and everybody drink. It's good for you. Really, it is... :eyes:

[Ninga]

18. Simple. People want to be lied to. Because it is too much work to sift though the truth, and

god-only-knows we are a soft and addicted nation.

Do people even read anymore? Or are they so enticed by their own reflections and the vibrations of their handheld devices.


Do we instigate change from the bottom up or top down? No matter our approach, the methodology will be the same....grassroots activisits.

Do we organize and prepare now, to build a fire large enough for the feet of the new administration?


Will there even be a Democratic administration?

[iris5426]

20. I couldn't bring myself to watch last night...

I just don't care which one of them gets it, not even a little bit. I agree just about everyone so far...I don't understand the pull to either candidate. Obama's inexperience, and more than anything else apparent lack of an ability to think on his feet worry me. Hillary's corporatism and my desire for new blood in the white house turn me off to her. Neither of them are fighting for the things that really matter -- the things that John was fighting for.

And I feel like I really should start wearing a :tinfoilhat: because I really believe there was something more at work here, like many of you do, in John's dropping out of the race. Everyone I have talked to about it has looked at me like I really was wearing a :tinfoilhat: (with the exception of my mom because she is awesome). It just doesn't make sense. The growing momentum, undprecedented recent fundraising, and more than anything the delivery of his speech just don't add up. If he hadn't done well next Tuesday, I could have understood. But he knew his message was getting out, he would have had even more of a chance in last night's debate to continue it. I just can't see him making that decision himself. And there's the weird Joe Trippi twitter message too...

It just doesn't add up. And it makes me nauseous to think that someone, somewhere has SO much influence that they could intimidate even him, when he was so dedicated to his message and everything he was fighting for.

I've completely lost faith in our political system, our voting system and in our government in general, though I didn't have much left anyways.

On edit: Do you think we'll ever really know what made him quit?

We do need a true grassroots revolution, but I fear the number of people paying enough attention to be involved is too small to make a difference.

[Greylyn58]

21. I didn't see it because of work, but...

I watched Keith Olbermann's Post Debate wrap up show. Here's my take on the debate.

I find it interesting that almost to a man(or woman-Rachel Maddow) all of the TV Talking Heads felt that this was the most substantive debate. Really? No stupid, touchy-feely questions? No stupid fluff about clothes or hair or makeup? They actually asked good, meat and bones questions about how these two people would straighten out the mess this country is in should they be elected. My question is WHY? Why did it take the MSM this long to have one of those kinds of debates?

Why, when there was a larger Democratic pool of candidates to chose from, didn't any of the MSM out-lets that co-sponsored these little get-togethers have a real, substantive debate?, allowing each of the candidates a chance to show who and what they wanted to do for this country?

Well, I think most of us here know why and I'm sure that supporters of the other candidates know why too. First they had to weed out all the trouble makers, people who might have done some real good. Then they had to take down the biggest thorn in their side of all. Edwards was marginalized, pushed into a corner derided for trite and trivial things, never given the time of day by most(not all-thanks Keith) of the MSM people until well...here we are.

It was decided long ago by the MSM and the Corporations who will be our candidate come November. Maybe my :tinfoilhat: is a little too tight, but I really believe this is the case.

Or maybe, I'm still in mourning for what could have been the beginning of something wonderful for this country. :cry:

[zalinda]

23. I couldn't watch it either

I could care less on who gets the nomination. I wanted the foundation fixed, not someone to decorate and slap on a coat of paint.

I'll be invisible again, but then I've always been invisible to this country. I know now why people move out to the middle of no where to live. They want to be away from stupid people.

zalinda