HAS ANYONE HERE SEEN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY????

[ClericJohnPreston]

I know they used to be here, instead of this corporate wasteland I find littering the place.

A campaign, after being formally disbanded and with your staff now fleeing to other active campaigns, renders our efforts here both heroic and the true essence of "grass roots".

I don't know if John or his lovely wife are lurking here, but I suspect, as fervent as our beliefs are, that any participation in any cabinet or VP position, hinges on him disappearing from public life for awhile. The decision to literally come out of retirement now, would be so momentous, it would be on a par with the return of Amelia Earhart.

In other words, I think John still is weighing future possibilities, trying to make lemonade from lemons. He has made a promise which is almost airtight and tough to renege on. I would hope he would reconsider, but at least leaving his name on the ballot would have symbolic value.

Our decision not to choose between Obama or Hillary, is symbolic of our rejection of CORPORATE politics,of being forced to select from two different flavors of corporate candidates, with nothing about them to distinguish one from the other, except superficial features.

John Edwards stood for a POPULIST MOVEMENT, which recognized that there were TWO AMERICAS, not one of FAKE political homogenity. We have an American caste system right now, where the lower class has been completely shut out from mainstream America. That was never the Democratic Party I knew. If winning at all costs means you cut off the weakest among us, I say that is a PYRHICC victory at best, as you have sold your soul for a win. The purchaser?

Corporate America, of course.

I am for the empowerment of people and the neutering of corporations.

This post is for those who feel the same way.

P.S. I will never capitulate to HRC or Obama. I feel quite bad that so many stalwarts of this board have bolted for other campaigns.

Oh ye of such little faith.

[smokey nj]

1. I refuse to board the S.S. Barillary Clintbama.

Ship Of Fools
World Party

We're setting sail to the place on the map
from which no one has ever returned
Drawn by the promise of the joker and the fool
by the light of the crosses that burned.
Drawn by the promise of the women and the lace
and the gold and the cotton and pearls
It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.
You sail away from the light of the world on this trip, baby.
You will pay tomorrow
You're gonna pay tomorrow
You will pay tomorrow

Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools. No, no
Oh, save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
I want to run and hide right now

Avarice and greed are gonna drive you over the endless sea
They will leave you drifting in the shallows
or drowning in the oceans of history
Traveling the world, you're in search of no good
but I'm sure you'll build your Sodom like you knew you would
Using all the good people for your galley slaves
as you're little boat struggles through the warning waves, but you don't pay

You will pay tomorrow
You're gonna pay tomorrow
You're gonna pay tomorrow

Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
Where's it comin' from?
Where's it goin' to now?
It's just a It's just a ship of fools

[Plucketeer]

15. Ship of Fools - I like that.

I won't even bother to go down to the shore and wave at them as they leave me stranded here on Edwards Island.
Of course, I'm staying because I know that the mainland is rampantly infected with the disease known as Hype Delirium. Even if I have to live with myself - I'll be able to do so with a clear conscience.

[lisainmilo]

17. I will vote my conscience

only one name on that ticket....that is Edwards.

[Two Americas]

2. missing in action

Where did the Democratic party go? Remarkable transformation we are witnessing.

[lisainmilo]

16. truth unfolding before our eyes! n/t

[frogmarch]

3. I'm back.

I told myself that moving on would be the sensible thing to do, so I tried - but couldn't.

I'm a JEer, and that's all there is to it.

[ClericJohnPreston]

4. Glad to see you frogmarch

We are the few, the proud, the Edwardians :)

Anyone feel like becoming an anti-corporate revolutionary? :patriot:

[Andrea]

5. I'm down with that!

:patriot:

[Two Americas]

12. hey

Nice to meet you frogmarch. Glad you are back.

[bobbolink]

19. You're right where you belong! You were missed!

:applause:

:hug:

[waiting for hope]

6. John is the Democratic Party

And if Howard Dean did what I think he did, than John is the last voice of the party. I really don't know who all those other people are with the d's by their name - they have never spoken for me.

[ClericJohnPreston]

7. Now you got it

This Democratic Party is no longer distinguishable from a moderate REPUBLICAN Party. To me, that is the final insult after years under the Conservative yoke. Our own kind thinks this is what we deserve.

As I said, time for a revolutionary anti-corporate Party :)

[waiting for hope]

8. I been thinking -

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a four party system?

Progressives (that's us)
Democrats (they are everything Republicans are but vote pro-choice)
Republicans (the usual, die in the wool conservatives that vote anti-choice)
Neo-Cons (for the really far right and the Larry Craigs and Mark Foleys - cuz you know, they need a place to hide)

Just a thought ;)

[iris5426]

11. It would make SO much more sense.

[Two Americas]

25. the leadership

I think that describes the leadership groups well. I would simplify it.

By the way, don't let people ever tell you that we are small. Politics is always a matter of several small groups jockeying for support from the public. If we have a small following, it is only because we don't have the resources the other factions do to reach the public. But politics is always driven by small factions, with most of the people just following one or the other.

I would categorize the leadership factions this way:

- The super-wealthy and powerful few, who are interested in protecting corporate and financial interests

- The corporate liberals and Democrats who control the Democratic party and liberal organizations

Both of those groups are small, but they have enormous resources and are willing to bully people into following them. For most of the people in the country, it does not much matter which is in power.

We have parties that well represent the interests of those two aristocratic factions. Those people represent about 10% of the population - the upper 10% in income - including their apologists, wannabes, and sycophants.

Most of the people here at DU - the most domineering and controlling ones - are from that upper 10% income bracket, and I don't think that is insignificant.

Both of those groups are antagonistic to the people. They are both anti-democratic aristocrats. The Democrats need working class and minority votes, so they are forced to do a few things for us when they are office to keep us pacified and in the fold. But they are not seriously interested in confronting the big money people who are our antagonists and exploiters. There main job, in fact, is to hold our arms behind our backs with their sweet and phony promises, so that we cannot defend ourselves. They are willing to have us suffer rather than relinquish their power and control.

Which of the two parties a person is attracted to has to do with personal preferences, prejudices, and taste. The parties know whom they are pandering to, and how to do it.

The other 90% of the people have no voice, have no power, have no one advocating for their interests. We could be their (our) advocates. Keep in kind that this new movement would have no more in common with the Democrats (the 10% who control the party) than it does with the Republicans. The Democrats talk a sweeter game, and we find it more seductive, because we are the people that their propaganda is targeted at.

The general public is not securely in either camp, and would move to a new movement very easily and quickly. The leaders of both of the two parties want us to believe that each of them represent - control and own - 50% of the population. They want us to believe that there are no other possible choices. Those are lies.

Why are we attacked? Because we are pulling the curtain back on these lies. Because they cannot tolerate even the slightest hint of revolt. That is because we are much, much stronger than they are potentially. We must be snuffed out before we can get started, bullied and coerced into silence and despair, and anything we propose or support must be ruthlessly nipped in the bud, as the Edwards campaign was. That is because they know that it could spread like wildfire and very quickly get out of hand. That would threaten the privilege, status, and power of the few.

I say we do everything we can to make things get very quickly out of hand.

[Andrea]

28. Good analysis

I think you are very correct that the bulk of the population is not really "owned" by other party. In fact, I know from looking at voter rolls locally that Independents outnumber Dems or Reps here, though we vote about 70% Dem.

I think that one of the main problems with getting a movement off the ground is that old human dilemma: you have to let go of one thing to grasp the next. The first presidential election I could vote in was 1980. I voted for Anderson (anyone remember him?). He was completely buried and I regretted so much not voting for Jimmy Carter. It was only one vote, but I felt like it would have meant more as far as battling Reagan. After that, I never voted third party again. It seemed like throwing my vote away. I really hated and still hate, that people voted for Nader in '00. They handed the election to Bush.

So the problem is, how to get to a viable strength extremely quickly, so that in the meantime you aren't essentially voting for Republicans by withholding your vote from Democrats. We're all confronting that issue now as we think about how we will vote in the general election. An obvious solution would seem to be getting some "marquee" players to head this movement. That would be great if they were people like Al Gore or John Edwards, but what if they aren't? What if they turned out to Joe Liebermann types? Egads.

Just some thoughts about the difficulties we face, in the hopes of inspiring some solutions...

[bpeale]

34. the democratic party abandoned us years ago

i don't see why we should support THEIR candidates now. they are just as bad (if not worse) than the republicans. at least the republicans are right out there in your face with what they believe. the democrats say one thing to your face & then stab you in the back later. why should we trust them? and why should we vote for THEIR candidates? just to keep a republican out? that is not a good enough reason for me. i'm tired of having a party take my vote for granted. from now on, they will have to EARN my support. but i'm convinced that now is the perfect time for a viable 3rd party ... the Progressive Party. and i think John Edwards is perfect to lead that party. at least he speaks for me and i feel that he hears me.

[adnelson60087]

9. Dems lost their spines when Reagan was in office, and have not found it since.

We are the remnants of the Vertebrates, but we can get our party back, if we just keep at it.

[saracat]

10. I am a John Edwards Democrat. I fear that is the equivalent of a third party now.

[Silver Gaia]

13. I understand what you're saying. But...

one of US -- someone we all have come to respect and care for -- has been offered a job working within the Democratic Party. We are all hurt and angry, and he's got to be feeling even more pain than some of us, but he hasn't given up on the Democrats. Neither has John, that I am aware of. For those reasons, I can't abandon them either. They aren't perfect by a long shot, but they're what we have to work with. The alternative, in my eyes, is far, far worse.

That said, I do know where you're coming from, and agree with the substance of your post. This is what we MUST work toward: "empowerment of people and the neutering of corporations." But we must work with the tools we have. Or build new ones from scratch, and that takes time we do not have. With people like Rocky working within the party, we still stand a chance. THIS is really the key, IMO. The best, most long-lasting changes start at the grassroots and work up. We must change the party from the inside-out. We must keep on yelling to make our voices heard, and we must hold their feet to the fire every chance we get, but we must also do more. We must get involved. Some of us are more involved than others, and I know many here already are involved very deeply. (My thanks to all of you.) However, I, myself, must become more involved at a deeper level out there in the real world. This I know. And I will.

My vote in the primary goes to John Edwards. I will not cast my vote for anyone but the one to whom I have pledged it with all my heart and soul.

But--and I don't know if this is relevant here or not--I cannot abstain from voting for whoever wins the Democratic nomination in the GE. The alternative, as I said, is much more frightening to me. I cannot, in my wildest nightmares, envision anything the Democrats could do that is on a par with what would come of, for instance, a McCain/Huckabee administration. That prospect scares the everliving bejeezus out of me! So, if for no other reason, I will vote AGAINST *that*.

Maybe this doesn't have much to do with what you're angry about, CJP. But I still felt compelled to say it. Don't get me wrong. I'm pissed as hell about all of this. But I will support our friend, Rocky, in his new life. I will support John in whatever he decides to do. And I will support the Democratic Party in November. All considered, it's the best I can do. For now.

[ClericJohnPreston]

14. And this is where we agree to disagree

Joolz, we are all individuals and therefore sense things in different ways. We each have a common historical perspective of the world, but our life experiences are different, therefore coloring ideology.

In MY view, I don't believe that our Party has the luxury of a "rebuilding" process. In fact, it has already been retooled, and you are looking at the result of that transformation. This is no longer a Party of the working class, or liberally minded, but a safe zone for moderate policies, designed not to offend anyone.

The last time in historical context, I saw such appeasement gone horribly wrong, was the Neville Chamberlin period in Great Britain before WWII. His ironically themed message was "PEACE IN OUR TIME".

In MY view, patronizing this pacification effort is anathema.I feel it a slippery slope of well-intentioned actions, that will result in the lines of demarcation between the Parties being reduced to mere nomenclature. As a staunch defender of core Democratic principles, I cannot watch the party be hijacked by the nouveaux sense of fealty to pocketbook over social empathy.

By the gauge of my pocketbook, I should be a Republican. I'm not. I have too much respect for my fellow man, am too philanthropic in spirit, to waste my hours on a golf course or sipping wine over vapid banter. We have starving families in America. That is a priority we all should share. Starving children do not have the luxury of our "rebuilding" process.

This Country is very sick. We have a new generation, the ones Obama is tapping, that have no sense of social responsibility and no sense of accountability. They merely assume a victory, because they have a need to be a "winner". I fought causes for victories that were personal, not a shared gestalt.

I will steadfastly refuse to join the ranks of automotons supporting Obama or Hillary. Those candidates do not speak for me or for people of lesser voice. ONLY as a last resort, holding my nose in a GE, would I pull the lever for the Democratic candidate. Believe me, the difference YOU see between the two parties, as presently constituted, is not as great as you think. Further, I applaud ROCKY and his appointment. I only hope he, along with others recently drafted to help, remember what it is that shaped their persona to be an Edwards supporter. Of course, I assume they will, but any changes they will bring are too many years away, to help those in need today.

Yes, I am ashamed my Party has acted to silence the voice of John Edwards. No other logical deduction can mean anything other than he was silenced. YOU can go ahead and excuse that. I never will. Nor will all the poor and disenfranchised, who don't have the luxury of an apology from some empty suit of the DLC, whose children go to bed hungry each night.

[Silver Gaia]

20. I don't appreciate the tone of your reply: "YOU"

You are absolutely correct that we speak from different life experiences. Golf courses? Sipping wine over vapid banter? Exactly whom do you think you are speaking to here? My pocketbook is obviously quite small in comparison to your description of your own. In fact, I am quite positive it is, because I know that I am one of the working poor Edwards was talking about. Thanks for the reminder. I know what it's like to have cornbread and beans for dinner night after night because it's all we could afford. I know what it's like to live without running water in your house and have to trudge to the out house in the middle of the night with a flashlight in the cold, pouring rain. I will keep in mind that my experiences must be quite pale in comparison to YOURS, and therefore, irrelevant. I spoke to this thread in good faith and from my heart. I did not choose to belittle YOU in any way. I should have expected that you would feel a need to bluster me. There was absolutely no need to yell at me by capitalizing the word "YOU," or misrepresent my comments. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually said instead of attempting to put words in my mouth that I did not say. I will keep my thoughts to myself from now on. I know enough to see when I am unwelcome. Carry on.

[ClericJohnPreston]

21. If anyone is CHARACTERIZING my words, it is you Joolz

Re-read my post. I stand by every word, and it neither says what you say it says, nor in the tone you decry.

I* capitalized MY as much as YOU, to distinguish our two very different opinions of the Democratic Party. I didn't start a Holy War or jihad, and your characterizing my views on wealth are a total DISTORTION of my words.

In law, that is called characterization. I will let the clear meaning of what I wrote stand for others to pass judgment upon. In no way was I attacking your beliefs, but answering your opinion, with my own.

If you choose to bluster and then play victim, it is your choice. But, don't blame me for your choices.

[Silver Gaia]

22. I did not yell at you. I did not misrepresent your words.

I stated my opinion. If I misjudged your comments on wealth, then please clarify. If I misjudged, then you have my apology. However, I see no apology forthcoming from you for your mischaracterization of me and what I wrote. I am not "playing victim," as you insinuate. I don't DO that. If I were of a "victim" mentality, I would have chosen not to defend myself against your response. Nor am I blustering you. That is BS. I wrote what I did in my first post not to in any way take away from what you wrote. In fact, I even said I agreed with the substance of your post. I merely dared to state an opinion that differed slightly from your own. And I did not do so with "bluster." I see a lot of anger, and for good reason. I am angry, too. I said as much. What I didn't see in your post was a plan. What do we DO with this anger, short of outright, bloody revolution? Where do we GO from here? What IS the way forward? The best thing at this point is for you to just leave me alone. I have no desire to get into some yelling match with you or anyone else. Been there, done that, don't care to play again. I don't have time for it. That's why I said I'll keep my thoughts to myself. NOT because I am claiming some sort of victimhood. So, consider me done in this conversation. I'm not going to play this game.

[Yael]

30. Joolz

:hug:

[Two Americas]

26. shit

Divide and conquer is happening all over the place since Edwards quit.

We need both of you.

The "in or out of the party" bullshit is divide and conquer - we are being taunted and tormented with that question out there. It is an intentional ploy to weaken and divide us. We don't need to be one or the other.

John, people are scared half to death - terrorized and traumatized - and not all of them are as strong as you and I; actually many have a different kind of strength, and different perceptions and sensibilities. We must accomodate them and care for them - as equals, as brothers and sisters. I say this with all respect and love for you, and I hope it doesn't sound like a lecture.

[Andrea]

27. Thank you

I'm sure you are right - Divide and Conquer is the strategy of our time. We can't give in to it.

"many have a different kind of strength, and different perceptions and sensibilities" - so true, and we need all of them.

Peace, everyone!

[ClericJohnPreston]

32. I hear you

Yes Two Americas.

There is plenty of room for two opinions.

I'm a big enough guy to admit my zealousness is sometimes perceived as either being strident or intractable.

You are right too about my strength. I am extremely strong-willed and much suited to argument.

Sorry if those strengths were misconstrued.

[Two Americas]

40. two approaches maybe, eh?

We have people with two different approaches, but with the same assessment of the situation, and the same goals. We cannot say that about a lot of people - or a few people who make a lot of noise - out there on the board.

You and I want to go out and just smash the crap out of the damned thing and stop pussyfooting around - full scale attack and take no prisoners. The problem is that there are a lot of allies who might get caught in the crossfire right now. There were two out there recently who sounded for all the world like they were on the other side, but talk to them a little and draw them out and they are not opposed to us at all. They are just scared and desperate and are getting swept up in the fear-mongering and herding that is going on. They can't see, or don't yet trust, any alternative to being realistic and getting behind one of the candidates.

As I said, may the Democratic party leadership rot in Hell for dividing and conquering us the way they have. It takes a very strong person to resist the pressure that is being applied to us right npw. Some people need to be shaken out of their stupor, others need understanding and compassion and encouragement.

If I had my way, I would start hollering for organizing a third party starting tomorrow and getting busy. But I know that tactically it is not quite the right time for that, and it would scare a lot of people away and bring down the wrath of the party loyalists on us.

That is what I am seeing, anyway. I don't pretend to have the last word or any answers on this yet.

[bobbolink]

18. From your keyboard to the monitor of the goddess!

Well said, and I'm not ready to capitulate ANYTHING!

My vote on Tuesday goes to Uncommitted, the best I can do.

BUT, you can be sure my causcus will hear my voice, loud and clear!

March on, O Cleric!

:hug:

[Lifelong Protester]

23. I also am wondering why the democratic party....

is looking to nominate folks who don't really come off as democrats. Hard to be a progressive or populist (I guess my definition of a democrat) when you are beholden to so many corporate contributors. I'm not fooled.

JE for me. Wisconsin is late to the whole primary thing so we 'don't count' and it will all be over but the shoutin' by the time I get to cast any vote.

How marginalized is that?

We need a national primary, so that we don't have the MSM choosing our nominees.

I'm still a little upset over the whole raw deal Edwards got. Almost as upset as I am that his message does not resonate with enough folks who do 'count' I guess. When are people going to wake UP? He was the only candidate to talk the talk AND WALK THE WALK.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm really down about the wool being pulled over so many people's eyes about the two dem front runners. Sorry, neither one speaks to me at all.

[adnelson60087]

24. The problem with a national primary is that the big-money candidates

can plaster the airwaves with their names/slogans while guys like John get nary a mention. At least in places like Iowa and NH, candidates have to do retail politicking, and not just saturation bombing like Super Tuesday will be. I really wish public financing was THE ONLY OPTION.

[Andrea]

37. That is a problem, but

I think the solution might be to combine a national primary with requiring that everyone take public financing.

[Yael]

29. People kvetch because they *thought* we sent a message in 2006

And these same people are now fighting over elevating Hillary Pelosi or Barack Reid to the top spot.

How long before they are crying in their Wheaties that "we hoped, but nothing changed -- it is just Washington as usual".

[balantz]

31. I'm just dumbfounded with the shallowness.

How can people be so uninformed after these horrible years. You'd think everyone would be paying attention now since congress has done nothing to end the abuses.

[bpeale]

33. i can't vote for either democrat left. i have issues with both

and neither represents me or people like me. that leaves me with no one to vote for.

[ClericJohnPreston]

35. I hear you

they are just two different flavors of the same Corporate Candidate.

[Two Americas]

36. I hear you

I do wonder though if the "are we or aren't we going to vote for the Dem candidate" is not something of a red herring, you know? All protest options other than not voting for them are blocked off. I think that what they want us to do is shut up and give up. If we commit to voting for Obama or Clinton, then it is "great you saw the light now STFU." If we say we are not going to vote for Clinton or Obama it is "you are irrelevant so STFU." See what I mean? There is no win there. Whether or not we vote for the lesser of two evils, we can still keep speaking out and fighting, and we could still build an independent party. The two issues do not need to be related to each other.

We don't have anyone to vote for, but we sure have plenty of someones to fight for.

[Andrea]

38. Bravo!!

"The two issues do not need to be related to each other." That makes perfect sense to me. Nor do we need to agree on who to vote for. I think in a way we each have a little bit of leverage if we remain cagey about where our vote will go. They need to woo us, not take us for granted, and realize that we are free agents.

[bpeale]

39. DAMN RIGHT WE DO! I LIKE YOUR STYLE

[CaptJasHook]

41. I don't claim to be a political genius

However, I am an observer of life, an educator, writer and artist, so I will give my opinion, as uneducated as it is.

It has been my observation that national politics has been out of control since the beginning of this country. It has always been in the hands of the wealthy plantation/factory owners and their religious allies. If you examine the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, you will still see the remnants of their attempts at power monopolization. Also bear in mind that States in those days were often Corporations onto themselves.

I am very guilty of Realpolitik. My support for John Edwards (and Kucinich before him) has always been about making sure that my voice is heard for as long as possible in the political debate. Did I ever think that my candidate would win? Not really. I understand that history doesn't support my views right now. Nor will it until wealth and number of guns matters less than love of fellow humanity and life.

In the end, I focus on changing my world from the bottom up. Me, then my family, then the community of my workplace, then my neighborhood, then my city. That is about as far as I ever see real action.

I will vote for either Hillary or Obama in the end, because I promised to and because I think it is incredibly important that we do not give the Fascists a clear victory in November (even though, in many ways they have already won). I also believe that the 2 democrats (with a little d) will do less damage than whatever rethuglican gains the WH.

In the end, I will most likely try to get people fired up about Obama. Again, I am very guilty of Realpolitik. My reasoning is that I want to jar as many young people out of their apathy as possible and I want as many Democrats as possible showing up to the polls. I don't think Hillary will inspire that. I want my fellow progressives voting, not for president, but for local bond measures, city candidates and (if I am lucky) State Senators and Congress members.

In the meantime, I intend to be a thorn in the side of the institution, I voice in the wilderness, a prick in the conciousness of my students. I will continue to take care of me, my family and my community. Hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.

Peace to you all