Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why I'm Homeless -- Necessarily Long, but I hope instructive...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Democrats » Elizabeth Edwards Supporters Group Donate to DU
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:32 PM
Original message
Why I'm Homeless -- Necessarily Long, but I hope instructive...
Introductory Information

Many years ago, when my child was first kidnapped and I was stunned into dysfunctionality, I was able on public support to go find and rent my own apartment. Now, the pay is so low that there is NOTHING, not even a garage, that one can afford to rent on public assistance. Disabled and elderly people, many of us getting as low as $637 a month!, are forced into public housing. There are 9 million of us who need public housing. There are 6 million units available. Even a first grader can do that math... there are 3 million of us at any given time to have no place to live.

I was living in one of these Section 8 apartments. I didn't want to be there.. middle of the downtown of a big city, depressing as hell, and LOUD. Most of these buildings are privately owned, which most people don't realize, and there is NO oversight as to how they are run. From the beginning in this building, which was owned and operated by the next door Buddhist Temple, there was at least one manager who was just downright MEAN. And elderly Japanese man, he always had a mean word for anyone who crossed his path. It was clear, after being there for a while, that they definitely favored their own, which was understandable to me, but it certainly gave me first-hand experience in what it's like to be the minority, and treated as such. I tried to take the experience in that light. One of their favorite things, knowing that we were trapped with no options, was to tell us that if we didnt' like it there, we should move. That'll mess with your head over time. At one point, I got to know the Buddhist priest, and when I told him this is what was said to us, he got angry, and said, "This is America, and nobody should be told to leave!" For a while that particular ugliness stopped... the priest had obviously had words with the management.

Then that particular priest left, and so did the old manager, only to be replaced by another one who cared about us even less, and was only out for her own agrandizement. That was soon followed by an assistant manager who was not only as mean as the old guy, but lived in the building and went out of his way to speak horridly to every tenant he came across, at whatever time of day. It made life a living hell. There was no escape from the meanness.

One time this little hitler commenced to yelling at one of the tenants during a tenant meeting... he was very abusive, and went on a tirade. There was much uproar about this, and apparently even the shy little old Japanese ladies complained to the Buddhist Temple. The little hitler was told that he must go to therapy if he wanted to keep his job. Well, I knew that would take the problem off the table temporarily, and sure enough, within a matter of months, he was back at it, yelling at people in the office, in the lobby, outside in the garden, just wherever he chose to abuse us. Many people saw the futility, and those who could, moved from the building, which meant many long-term residents left. That still didn't affect the powers that be.

One day my neighbor down the hall, David, a very sweet and quiet person, who always had a smile and kind greeting for everyone, told me that he had been humiliated by little hitler one too many times. One day, he got on the elevator, and little hitler was the only other one in the elevator. He told me he got right in his face, started yelling at him, and told him that NEVER AGAIN would he tolerate his abuse. He told me he said to him, "I know where you live, and I will come get you, take you to the pent house and dangle you over the edge by your feet while you cry and beg for mercy. Then I'll just happen to let go, and laugh as you tumble down those 20 floors. Oh, and by the way, should you decide to tell someone.... I *never* said a word to you." I said, "David! You didn't really do that!" He said, "yup, I did, and he has avoided me ever since!" When an abuser can turn a quiet, sweet person like David into one who threatens violence, then the situation has become horrendous!

David was quite ill, and the last thing he needed was abuse. There were many elderly people in the building who were doing everything they could just to hold on and not be sent to a nursing home. They certainly didn't need abuse. There were many other ill people who couldn't spare the energy to deal with this crap --one woman I particularly remember had cancer, and just hid in her apartment to avoid him. What a life.

One day I saw this little hitler pushing and pulling an elderly chinese woman -- Because she couldn't speak English! -- and he just about had her down to the pavement. I yelled at him .. "Mike, STOP! We're human beings, not cattle!" Apparently I surprised him enough that he let up pressure just enough that she got away. Another few seconds, and he might very well have had her down, and who knows what bones might have been broken. She was shaking like a leaf, and I tried to reassure her, without Chinese, that I was going to stay with her, and that it wasn't her fault. There were other tenants around, but nobody spoke up.... that is the nature of abuse and power.

The family of this woman immediately moved her out of the building, and she was gone. I spent days making phone calls, trying to find an organization which would DO something, now that we had clear evidence of PHYSICAL abuse. To no avail.... each organization only referred me to another one, and another one, ad nauseum. I gave up. I couldn't believe that even physical abuse had no recourse, but that is the fact.

As you can imagine, he turned his wrath on me. No good deed, etc. All this time, since he was the one we had to go through to get our yearly Section 8 recertifications, we had been avoiding him. We went to the Resources Coordinator for the building, who would get the papers from little hitler, we would fill them out and get copies of the necessary documents and give them to her, and she would turn them into him, then she'd get the paper back for us to sign, and turn the signed paper back into him. After my clash with him, he would no longer accept this, as he couldn't stand that people could avoid him. He made up his own rule, which was NOT HUD rule, that we had to go through him. The Resource Coordinator would no longer stand up to him, and the manager of the building insisted we all obey his homemade rule.

I knew that I could NOT deal with him alone, so I went back to the phone, and after 3 days of constant calls, it was clear there was NO RECOURSE... either suffer the abuse or leave. I finally did what I didn't want to do, and went to the Victim's Assistance program, knowing it was inevitable that would mean the cops would be drawn in. This city, Denvoid, is known for abusive cops, and I had dealt with a few of them when my car was broken in, so this was the very last resort for me.

The Victim's advocate was the ONLY one who took an interest at all. She was appalled at the abuse. Of course, she wanted me to talk with a cop. This is the one little bit of humor... the officer who came in is named.... Snow White. I kid you not. Well, dear Snow showed no compassion, no sign at all that she had any empathy for what we were going through. She did, however, agree to go with me when I had to meet with little hitler for my recertification.

We agreed to meet in the lobby at 1pm, and the door to the office was still closed. When it opened and we went in, all the managers were in there, and the sound was palpable as their jaws hit the floor to see a cop in full uniform with gun and all accompanying me to see little hitler. I said nothing to him, and he was clearly shaken.

When the business was concluded and the cop and I left, we got out the door and she turned to me and said, "Well, how was it?" I just burst out laughing, and said that was the first time he had spoken in a tone that could be heard. She looked at me puzzled, and I said, "His favorite thing, especially with elders who have little hearing, is to talk very softly, so nobody can hear him. Then, when we say, "I didn't hear you", HE YELLS AT US.. What a dear. Anyway, I asked the cop to keep a file on him, and she was clearly not wanting to, but gave me her card, and said she'd see if she could open a file.

Thereafter, I made up little cards that I carried around with me that had both the phone number for the Victim Advocate and the cop (yes, many didn't believe there could actually be an officer named Snow White!). When someone would complain to me about little hitler, I'd say, Do you want to do something about it? If they said no, I just replied, Sorry, complaining won't help, and I can't listen to complaints anymore. I'd had enough of helplessness, and trying single-handedly to get action. If they said yes, if there was something to do, they would, I'd give them a card, and tell them to call those numbers and make a complaint where it could have an effect. I found out later that even one of the staff people called the cop to complain! I was told that the cop actually called the Resources Coordinator and basicallly said, "What the hell is going on there?!" Apparently the cop had had enough calls of complaint to make her realize it wasn't just me.

However, I was told that nothing could be done. That if the little hitler abused one group but not another, they could get him on descrimination. But since he was an equal opportunity abuser, we'd just have to live with it or move.

Now, lest you think this building was just one rotten apple in the barrel, let me assure you that is not the case. During this time I was working with an organization devoted to getting single-payer health care. I had come to know one of the doctors involved with this effort, and had told her what I was dealing with in this group. I had learned about a Section 8 tenants group, and set her up to speak about health care at their next meeting. She later told me that during their break, she listened to their conversations, and they were all asking each other where they lived, if there were vacancies, and how the management was. They ALL were upset with the abuse of the management in all the buildings, and trying to find something better! This made quite an impresssion on this doctor, and she was taking me much more seriously after that.

Another of my neighbors (David had died by this time.... which is why I feel like I can use his name...) got fed up with the abuse, and set up a tenants meeting with a lawyer from Legal Aid, a HUD representative, someone from the Housing Authority, and several other "officials". She asked me to take part, and I said I would if I could, but I knew by then there was nothing that could be done unless all the tenants got together and staged a HUGE rebellion. At this meeting, they were basically told what I had been told before... nothing could be done. She came to me afterwards and said, "You were right, and I can't fight it anymore." She left and moved into a nother building and told me later that the management was better, but it was horribly infested with bugs.

After the year with the cop, I had a Lutheran pastor who would accompany me for about 5 years as I had to apply for recertification. With his presence, little hitler wasn't so abusive. Then, he changed the date of the recertifications, and the pastor was out of town. I had been very ill, and was at the end of what I could deal with. I also knew that I was wearing out, and couldn't take any more abuse, or I'd become just as ugly as they were. So, I finally decided to just leave. Just pull out and leave all my stuff behind, and just take off.


First and foremost, EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a market rate apartment! By forcing us into public housing we are made a special and powerless group, at the mercy of those who would take advantage of us, and they KNOW we're powerless, and like to make sure we know that, too.

Second, EVERY public and private organization or government entity that serves poor and homeless people MUST include the voices and needs and wants of that group of people! This should go without saying, and it used to be a given. At the very least, there needs to be an ombudsman, seperate from the entity, where the people "served" can make reports on what they have dealt with, how they were treated, whether their needs were met, etc.

Both sHill and Abamination are going to run right out and draft legislation that would protect people like me from this kind of abuse, right? Riiiiggghhhhtttt......

With the shortage of public housing, who is going to take on the issue of rampant abuse in said housing?

We can give $$$ to Coalition for the Homeless, but they already know of this, and are doing.... what?

There are many Civil Rights organizations..... who among them is supporting people abused in public housing? None, that I could find...

Does Edwards' Institute on poverty have a section that addresses abuse and legal problems of those in public housing? What would it take to get him to include this and move on it?

How can we organize some massive interviews of people who are living in public housing, to find the measure of the problem?

I know this is long and involved, and a huge problem. But PLEASE take the time to read, digest what the reality is, and let's put our heads together. There is CONSIDERABLE brain wattage here with Edwardians, and I think we can come up with some ideas!

Thank you for all your considerable support!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :yourock: :grouphug: :grouphug:
Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. one voice
What bobbolink is giving us an opportunity to do, is to hear one voice that represents millions.

What the party is asking us to do is to take millions of voices and have them represent one voice - that of a candidate.

That illustrates the divide in the Democratic party. The divide is real, it is profound, it is significant, and it will not go away. Some are looking from the top down, others are looking from the bottom up.

It is not only intelligent politics, it is morally imperative that we hear this voice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iris5426 Donating Member (697 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very instructive, thank you for sharing...
You are the voiceless that JRE wants to give voice to...I hope we can all find a way to make that happen.

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. We hear you
I hear you! :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. I hear you, bobbie.
The lack of affordable housing is one of the most serious issues that needs a voice. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bobbolink....
.... I gotta tell ya, I'm a 3rd of the way into your post and I'm thinkin' landmark movie. Incredible. Truly incredible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Movie! Play! New York Times Bestseller Book!
Come on, all you writers, do your stuff!

:grouphug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. I'm thinking you're a great writer. Why arent you writing for mags and stuff?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. bobbolink, your story made me cry, and made me angry.
No, you and the millions of others in your situation do NOT deserve to be treated that way. In fact, you do NOT deserve to live in such a situation; no one does.

Whatever the outcome of this election, I hope John's voice is not stilled. If Clinton or Obama have any smarts at all, they will put him in a prominent place in their administration where that voice can be heard, and continue to give voice to the disenfranchised in this country.

:grouphug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks, SeattleGirl... believe me, there've been lots of tears and anger by tenants!
this is an Obamination, if you'll excuse the rather bad pun, and people can't understand that we're alone with it.

I have more stories where that comes from, and I'm sure there are other DUers with other stories.

We can't wait for John now... we MUST ACT... that's why I spent about 1 1/2 hours writing that blessed thing..... people want to know what to do, to carry on John's work.

Well, this is one direction.

Simple Civil Rights for public Housing tenants!

There is much brain power here on DU, and we can find some direction with this, if we so chose.

The tenants are waiting....
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. Homes should be a right not a privilege and no one should be forced
to accept abuse in order to keep a roof over their head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Amen, amen, amen. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oh Bobbie
:hug: :hug:

We hear your voice, sister.

I am on pins and needles to see what the Senator is going to do. That man does not let grass grow under his feet -- and however he decides to move forward so that the voices are heard, I am behind him 110%. For this EXACT reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. You should really re-post this in General Discussion to get more publicity
I knew public housing sucked, but had no idea about the abuse aspect of it. I'm sure many others also don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dear Bobbie, I don't know what to say. I am moved deeply by the day to day struggles of you and
your contemporaries.

This is not right.

After reading your compelling story, I feel sad all over again about Edwards stepping down.

Perhaps something good will come out of your story.

Love, ninga

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
13. Bobbi - I'm going to put my thoughts
on this - also, my OneCorps captain here is a friend of John and Elizabeth's, she feels pretty confident that he will start something that will give voice. I'll email her and get her ideas too.

Love ya and thank you, that took courage to tell your story. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. that's a great idea. I think any of us who are still part of a onecorps group should email the group
and let them know that if they are still committed to the issues John was working for, they can stay tuned and join us in our action - whatever it may be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pamela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you for telling your story.
I don't know what else to say but, thank you, Bobbie. I hope you'll post this in GD but I can understand why you might not want to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. Gosh
Bobbie, that's terrible.

I can't imagine how those abusive supers and managers lived with themselves, nor can I imagine what caused them to act that way.

Everyone look closely and write down the date. I'm about to do something I don't think I have ever done before and doubt I will ever do again: agree with Ronald Reagan.

Reagan said, “Protecting the rights of even the least individual among us is basically the only excuse the government has for even existing.”




Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
16. Hey bobbo-
Took me a while to get to this, I had one of those long, long, real world work days. I read your story with great interest, and I tried to take away some lessons.

But I found it hard getting pass the first line. I had no idea you lost a child to kidnapping, this is a terrible thing. Have you spoken of this before, and I just wasn't aware? I assume it's okay to ask, since you spoke about it, all be it briefly. That' all I'll say on it, unless you'd like to discus it further. You're free, as always, to tell me to shut the hell up.

I wish only that I had some advice for you. I'm sure, with all your research, you know far more than I do. I did listen, and I'm trying to learn. Which is what I believe you want for us all to do.



Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Dear Bobbie...
First let me say how sorry I am that you had to endure such unspeakable horrors. WE are truely alone in one way, but rest assured that we are also in this TOGETHER!! We must put our collective heads together and give our best shot to do something. I don't know what kind of influence Edwards' Institute on poverty has, but your story makes me sadder than ever that he is no longer in the race.

I'm thinking of Edwards heading a new Cabinet Post that will have the Presidents ear ON A DAILY BASIS, something like Secratery of Poverty, or something similar, anything that will give a voice to the millions of people who are currently ignored.

You are right, There is CONSIDERABLE brain wattage here with Edwardians. I believe we WILL come up with many good ideas, the trick will be to get someone to take us seriously, that is where we must pursue and press and not give up. We absolutely must make ourselves a force to be reckoned with.

Thanks again Bobbie, as soon as my health allows me, I will be here WITH you in FULL STRENGTH.--Dajoki:loveya: :hug: :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bobbie- I'm just seeing this for the first time. Thanks for sharing your story
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 11:36 PM by Beaverhausen
:hug:

That was a powerful read. Thanks for opening up to us here. I think your story illustrates the very reasons I support Edwards (still) - there are so many out there suffering needlessly in the richest country in the world, while we waste billions of dollars on an unnecessary war.

I love the idea upthread to actually take this issue straight to John and Elizabeth. Look at how the word is finally getting out about the thousands of homeless veterans since John made them a big part of his stump speeches and his campaign platform. To have Bill O'Reilly talking about the issue (yes, I know he still doesn't get it but it is out there) has to help spread awareness.

Also, the more people hear Bobbie's story and the millions like it, I believe the more people will want to do something to help.

We should all try to think who we know in the media, who write for any kind of publication. We should come up with a fact sheet as well as anecdotal first-person stories such as Bobbies and put them together in a cohesive message. Reminding people that, before this mortgage crisis hit and people who actually had homes lost them, there are fellow americans who have to put up with deplorable conditions, abusive landlords and managers, and many without any home whatsoever. This shouldn't happen in this country, and I think we have the energy to try and do something about it.

That was just my first rambling response. Lets all keep thinking and coming up with ideas.

We can bring about real (I hate to use this word but here I go) CHANGE - we have the passion to do it.

I believe in us!


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
paganlib Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. bobbolink.........
I just want to tell you that I think you are a powerful writer and thank you for sharing your story. It is so incredibly sad having to deal with poverty (I'm one of the many who just barely hang on from one paycheck to the next) AND abusive people. You sound like an incredibly brave person.
There are many excellent ideas in this thread. The only thing I can add right now is to think about writing your own play.
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Silver Gaia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bobbie... Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
It takes great courage to tell our stories when there is such pain in them. I salute you for that courage.

Our stories, our voices, are important, each and every one of them, and deserve to be heard. Know that I hear you, and that there is another here with me who also hears you.

You have chosen wisely to share your story here. There are good people here. I believe you are among people who walk the walk of true compassion. Compassion isn't just a word to be tossed around lightly. It is not pity, for that only sets ourselves above and apart. Nor is it something we "do" when we have the time, to make ourselves "feel good." Compassion must be lived as a part of who we are in our daily lives, or else it is meaningless.

You are among people who want to move the world. We want not empty promises of change, but real solutions we can touch with our hands as well as feel with our hearts. There is righteous Anger here. Desire. Hope. And Dreams. Not dreams spun of airy rainbows, but of the salt of our tears, the sweat of our flesh, the blood and bone of hands willing to work together to create a better world for ALL of us.

I have nothing to offer you tonight but my words, and they are not worthy of yours. I hope you will accept this :hug: from me. I wish it could be more.

Together, we will find a way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. Perhaps the best way to address this is to update Section 8...
We all know it's been underfunded for... well since it's inception, probably.

But it seems like they need much more oversight and control of the process... and funding is key to getting that done.

I like the way they did the social housing in Amsterdam... they built it inside a huge apartment building that is mostly made up of middle-class housing, and even has a small percentage of luxury housing. I like that it puts everyone together. They have the right idea, I think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Absolutely, it needs to be "updated"! Get rid of the damned paternalism!
ANY organization, charity, governmental entity, etc., that purports to be in service to poor people absolutely MUST include poor people on it's board, have open dialogue with us, etc.

PLUS... there is NO EXCUSE for not having an avenue for addressing abuse! In this day and age... to not have any method for redress of abuse is unforgiveable!

HOW could we start to correct this?

Personally, I'm thinking class action suit.... Certainly it is a widespread issue.

How 'bout groups across the country interviewing HUD tenants?

How could we get lawyers involved in this?

I'm reading a book now where a doctor involved in a lawsuit about contamination of water said he believes that lawsuits are a good way to bring about social change.

Given that Edwards is a lawyer, I say.... It's our destination... :)

Do you have any further info on that housing in Amsterdam? Sounds interesting....

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. A class action suit might be the best first step...
here's some info on that building... it's called "the whale" because of the way it's designed.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/dgr/vuarem/2002-36.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Wouldn't a class action suit be a great project for an Edwards action group?
:evilgrin:

Really, I"m serious!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MaryRN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
26. Thank you for sharing this intimate story with us...I wish there was something I could do..
but be assured I'll circulate this.

Please take good care of yourself...indeed, you're a prince among wo/men.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Well, you could. ALL of you could. If you wanted to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. You haven't asked what you want from us
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 04:19 PM by benny05
I read your plight with sadness, but to me this is a rant. It's good to rant, but now, we have to think about solutions, and either I'm overlooking something in the post, I haven't quite understood what you want do with us or even from us. Is it money? Do you want someone to help pay for a hotel for a few days so that you can get some rest? I don't know what we can do to send money since you cannot afford a paypal account or possibly a Post Office Box since you don't have a home, albeit a POB isn't terribly expensive.

If we knew where you lived, we could get ahold a One Corps chapter and ask them to do outreach to you, but I don't know if a class action suit is feasible, unless there is a personal injury lawyer would be willing to take up your cause. Have you contacted one?

We hear your anger and frustration loud and clear, but I'm not certain what you want us to do to work with you. If you could articulate that tomorrow or in the near future when you're able to get online again, that would be helpful.

We have to remember that government cannot do things for all people, but it can be more effective. Obviously, it's not at present.

Again, your situation is bad, and I am sympathetic. I could have easily been in your situation a few times in my life, but I had the will to keep going and keep working with others, collaborating resources in order to move forward. You need a hand up, but you will have to tell us how to help you in the meantime since we know Bush won't. And John Edwards would tell you not to wait on the next President.

Best to you in your bad situation...benny







Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. "We have to remember that government cannot do things for all people"
But it sure as hell can do alot better than it is doing currently. My sig. line isn't just a quote with no meaning, I totally believe its true. And there IS plenty in this country, problem is that the "plenty" is in the hands and controlled by the few, who have no interest in helping Bobbie or me or the millions like us.

As far as Bobbie's elegant and extremely personal story, I do not see it as a rant at all, it is just fact, and we should thank Bobbie for sharing it with us and taking the lead on this subject. We have some smart people here and I believe that since no one will do it for us, we MUST come up with some ideas on our own. If we get enough of people involved maybe we can start a grass roots movement which will hopefully snowball into something big enough where we can't be silenced anymore. They (government) count on us being silent and in our place, its way past time that we show them we won't stand for it anymore and remind them that we DO VOTE.

So whatever you take from Bobbie's story, please understand this, WE MUST work TOGETHER to at least give ourselves a shot at being taken seriously. And remember also that Bobbie has taken the lead on this subject, but there are MILLIONS of us with similar stories and we owe it to ourselves to not give up and continue the fight that John Edwards has started. That is MY rant!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I contacted someone from One Corps
To see what the chapter could do to help Bobbie. It may take awhile before she hears anything, but that's what One Corps is for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Could you post a link for One Corps. Thanks n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Could you please ask me first before doing something like that?
Why would you do that before checking with me? Would you like for someone to do that with you?

As I've posted here before, the local OneCorps was quite dismissive. I got all the shit about how poor people in this country aren't nearly as poor as people in the rest of the world, and all that.

NO WAY are they going to "help" me, with a shitty attitude like that!

It hurt, and I wouldn't have anything to do with that kind of ignorant attitude.

I appreciate that you care, but... please... we poor people aren't incompetent... we need to be included and to speak for ourselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. "It may take awhile before she hears anything" What personal information did you give them????
I've posted here that I've been stalked in the past by a DUer, I've had people do all kinds of things to me that has caused hell for me...

WHAT PERSONAL INFO DID YOU GIVE OUT/???

I would NEVER to that to someone without their permission!! I wouldn't give out YOUR information to someone else?

What the fucking hell is going on here?????

You need to tell me exactly what information you gave out, and you need to apologize for betraying my privacy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Bobbolink
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 02:44 AM by benny05
Did you not say you wanted a One Corps to help out in a class action suit as a project, or did you not? You also wanted an ombudsman, which is what I asked for from the One Corps group in your area.

In being angry with me, consider that you asked for help. That's fine because you wanted your voice to be heard. You asked that we as JRE supporters put our heads together. I did what I could, which is reaching out to John Edwards supporters who are action oriented. This is why John Edwards set up One Corps--to address local concerns within communities. For what it is worth, the person I contacted immediately sent out an e-mail to the the One Corps chapter in your area.

Please, no more yelling at anyone, including me. As you know, I asked someone not to yell at you.

I owe no apology for an open web request for help. I am saddened you were sharp in your words for my trying to help, but I know you are mistrustful since you've been let down.

I hope you seek counseling from a social worker, if you haven't already.

I did what I could for you. I'm sorry if you mistrust my intentions to help.





Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I did NOT ask for my personal info to be put on a web site!!
Or to be released to ANYONE without my permission!

ANYONE who is web informed understands that. As a matter of fact, one Edwardian informed me that he wouldn't do a simple request because it meant registering on a site. SO... YOU are out of line to be criticizing me for being upset that you did this! I can't even believe you would insult me by insinuating I'm mentally ill because I don't want my personal info released to ANYONE without my permission. To insinuate such is controlling, and in need of "consultation" too.

I have written before on DU that I have been a victim of stalking by a DUer in the past. Surely ANYONE can understand that.

I have also had, a year ago, someone who said they were "helping" put my personal information on a website, and it created all kinds of hell for me, including the uselessness of my own phone afterwards, because I was being harrassed by sales calls every 10 to 15 minutes!

I resent your implication for something that every experienced user of the internet understands, and strongly suggest that you publicly apologize for coming down on me for this.

It's one reason I wanted to be discontinued at the secret site.... I wanted my email to be taken down, because I no longer trust people to use that with common sense and common courtesy.

You obviously didn't want to truly understand what my request was.

So be it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. So be it bobbolink
First, I didn't put your personal info on a website. I only know what city you live in based on your profile here. You will need to disable that as well if you don't want anyone to know where you live.

Second, you asked for help, so I e-mailed a one corp member (who had an e-mail address available)--- (obviously you didn't read what I wrote). I linked your post from this site in the private e-mail. I also forewarned the member that you might be difficult to deal with, and you are proving it.

I ask in the future not to yell at me or anyone else. And please don't ask for help if all you wish to do is to rant and really don't want any help, but just want to vent. I believe I was compassionate.

I hope you will seek professional help. None of us is equipped to help people with big emotional problems of your magnatude.

I wish you the best.




Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Are you a Dr?
How do you you know if someone needs professional help? Bobbie has gone through some very tough times and that would make the best of us just roll over, but she continues to fight for what she believes in. To me she is being heroic, not "difficult", we should all have the passion that Bobbie has!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Professional help is not the answer
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 12:48 AM by mntleo2
... Please know I am well aware and grateful for your caring and desire to help, and someone like me really appreciates your attempt, but understand the homeless are dealing with much more than most Americans with homes. Just try to imagine what it does to one's head to sleep on the street where at any time you might get raped, murdered and for sure get harassed by the Suits for being homeless. It never ends and then somehow people enduring this are the ones who need professional help?

Let me tell you a story that might illustrate why bobbolink is feeling so hurt about this. I read this story in a book about Bobby Kennedy when he was running for president and the work he did fighting for the lettuce pickers in CA. In my words:

Bobby Kennedy was running for president at the time and announced he was going to a particular lettuce farm to see for himself what was going on with the pickers and whether or not they were being paid and treated decently. When he arrived at the farm, men with guns cocked were standing at the entrance to the camp for the pickers. They told him if he went any further, they would shoot. Bravely, Bobby walked right past them and into the camp. The first dwelling he came to, was an old bus. He opened the door and walked in and found a tired and overworked woman standing over a petrol stove cooking, the interior of the bus was stifling, flies buzzing, her 6 children all sitting on a bed in filthy conditions. He stepped back out of the bus and fell to his knees in tears ...

There is one thing that bothered me about this story for years and I have never been able to voice that problem until writing about it here: While it was all good what Mr. Kennedy was doing to be in solidarity with people who desperately needed advocacy, what was wrong with this picture???

I bet bobbolink could tell you. I have to tell you this story moved me, I loved Bobby Kennedy, it really matters to me that such a man raised in wealth actually cared about the poor when so few of his kind do. I loved what he did and how incredibly brave he was. But Bobby was raised in privilege and he did not realize even then with all he was sensitive about, that he still had a ways to go because he was totally unaware of the human violation in what he had just done. His sense of superiority was more than evident in his actions when he walked into someone's home without even having the respect to knock or ask permission to enter!

How would you feel if some celebrity assumed it was just fine to open you door without knocking and walk into YOUR home, reporters and cameras blazing, as if he had some right there without your inviting them? It would be an insult! His open shock at the difference between his own lavish lifestyle and the woman's humble home was demeaning. Yet nobody thought a thing about how Bobby walked into a poor person's home, as a matter of fact, if any of those lettuce pickers had objected, why the ungrateful wretches!

We low income folks suffer a lack of privacy all the time ~ and the homeless have none at all. Everything they do is right out there in the open because they have *no* walls for privacy. They are subjected to searches, they have to show all their financial information to housing people who, if the low income person is lucky enough to obtain housing, then come into their homes looking into closets and snooping through our refrigerators. They are expected to show everything to an often unfeeling DSHS Suit and tell the secrets of their lives (like: "my daddy raped me when I was 8 and now I cannot eat or sleep, I am terrified of shutting my door and I got fired from work because I tried to pee without closing the main bathroom door ...") to "prove" they are eligible. I understand they need to have this information to "justify" to the Feds why we need help, but it is still an invasion of our privacy all the same.

So I deeply appreciate your intentions and hope you can understand what a violation it might be to bobbolink because you have *no* idea what the homeless and people in poverty endure. Just maybe try to be respectful ~ as I am sure Bobby Kennedy would have been had he realized how insensitive he had been to the family he as trying to help. I am sure you are well meaning too, and you are able to realize bobbolink's pain and fear is quite rational and that professional help is not the answer, ending poverty and homelessness is.

Cat In Seattle
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Thank you for this, Cat! You are so RIGHT! The lack of privacy, the sense that
anyone can butt in at any time with their "answers", and if you don't agree with their "answers" then you are castigated for it.... it's all very demeaning!

One loses any sense of personhood, but then we are supposed to just spring up and be "strong".

I can't even believe the words I have received because I need to protect what little privacy I have left! "Walk in the shoes..."

It is just common courtesy to ASK someone first! I'm amazed that that even has to be said.

I love Bobby Kennedy, too, and this is a story I wasn't familiar with. Thank you so very much for this! You have given me much to ponder, and to share with others!

I'm very lucky to have you as a friend! :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I have written via e-mail to the One Corps Group
And apologized for contacting them prematurely as I misunderstood the OP's intentions. I will not apologize to the OP though because I followed DU policy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/privacy.html

Best wishes to the OP.

B



Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. I suggest you read a post from myDD
Before making judgment about me.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/1/21/114426/672

I wrote it.

Thank you, Benny
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pamela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. OMG, that was you?
I read that a few weeks ago and cried like a baby. That was so beautiful. You're a good writer, Benny, and you have a great heart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. Thank god the people of faith who started the Underground Railroad
didn't have that attitude!

Thank god they saw what was needed, and did it, rather than put it on the shoulders of those on the bottom rung.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. Actually, I have.. one small thing.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=257x6557

You can see that not many responded.

Yet, that splinter group can't understand why I give up.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. Pub'lick Housing..Ears burning
I Lived in section 8 I managed to get it in a pretty decent place too, but my landlord was a putz. It was a corporate complex and it just sucked, I was never late on rent yet every month they sent me threats to evict me just in case it was late it always said on the bottom if my rent has been paid please disregard this notice.
They tried to kick me out on trumped up crap and I took them to court and when Maryland disability law had them by the balls they settled.
I lived in that place close to ten years. I tolerated section 8 personnel poking through my apartment every year to check if things were up to code supposedly, but they always seemed to focus on my controversial artwork and my gender issues or my beliefs and not their jobs.It was humiliating sometimes,when a caseworker would try to convert me and if I did not convert she treated me like a second class citizen..
Public group homes for people with mental illness can be worse. Places I have been were where staff makes passes at you,cracks the door to watch you shower,and staff provokes the living shit out of you just because they can get away with it. I have been choked,by a staff whacked out on drugs, on the job.I have been totally ignored,and the list goes on.And nobody dared consider the system and how it treated us was WRONG. No they all blame the individual for blaming the weakest means they never offend the corporate masters.

How do we fix this problem that the RICH have caused that created the poor? Get the public to understand PROGRESSIVE taxes on the wealthy are the costs wealthy people incur for their lavish lifestyles. Taxes are the payments they make for all they take for themselves. Taxes are to help people so rioters don't tear their perfect little worlds apart..Once no one can get wealthy enough to buy the state apparatus than maybe than things for us may change,but after bush I think so much has gone to shit, in this country people are so oblivious,obedient,ignorant and brainwashed,people who income wise are two steps away from the street themselves are in such hostile denial of their own fiscal fragility they don't want to give to shits about poor people, because one hospital stay and they will be on the street themselves..living the homeless or disabled people's lives they once said were worthless parasites.We the poor and imperfect are not seen as worth having our own lives by some rich arrogant butt holes out there filling the airwaves with sometimes not so subtle messages that poor people are the cause of all the woes of the middle class.We suffer because a few rich people are living so insulated from any accountability, hardship,work or misfortune that no one really cares to fathom the damage that pathological greed tolerated by a culture of who wants to be a millionaire does to all our actual humanity we show to one another.They are so enchanted with the fantasy of wealth as seen on TV they fear looking at reality of things like being suckered into debt bondage as they sign up for their Wal Mart credit cards..to buy a 60 inch plasma TV they just HAVE to GET.Just like the corporations commanded them to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Thank you for posting this in GD undergroundpanther!
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. On the Home Page now w/85 recs....
I miss John Edwards...he understood :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. Bullies love to kick you when you're down
and the farther down you are, the harder they kick you.

What is being done to marginal workers and ill people and the elderly in this country is sheer criminality.

That is just one reason I stubbornly marked my ballot for Edwards yesterday, along with about 2500 other voters in this state.

Considering Clinton and Obama were 190 votes apart the last time I looked, maybe they'll catch a clue.

...nah.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I did the same thing yesterday--voted for Edwards,
even knowing from the most recent polls that the California primary (and every other primary) was now a horse race between the "big two," two limousine liberals if they are any kind of liberals at all, with NO conception of poverty, no first-hand experience of the everyday humiliations you have to put up with when you're poor.

It was very much a protest vote, but I'm glad I did it--for Bobbolink and so many others, including me a couple of years ago. I just wish there was something more substantial I could do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Interesting numbers in NM
The difference between Obama and Clinton was a paltry 117 votes, statewide.

Edwards got 2500 votes. Richardson about 1000.

I sincerely hope the top two look at those numbers very carefully and realize what it will take to court us and alter their rhetoric accordingly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. .
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
34. The agency I work for...
...deals with housing discrimination based on race, religion, sex, age, national origin, disability or familial status in the State of South Carolina. Not sure whether your case would fall into that category, or what the equivalent agency would be in your state, but if you can find out who enforces the fair housing laws in your state, they may be able to at least put you in touch with someone who can deal with the abuse you've been facing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. That was tried.
They are handin glove with HUD, which is hand-in-glove with managemensts
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
35. Bobbolink, I know what you're talking about
and have friends dealing with this nightmare!

I hope we can come together and do something for
those of us with low incomes and few options for housing.

SoCal is ridiculous!

Section 8 housing is very difficult to find here.
It's available in crowded, noisy, dangerous areas of town.

That's not an option for people with learning/developmental disabilities.

Thanks so much for posting this.

I'm sorry I missed it when it first came out.

:yourock: :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. you made your choice- i hope it works for you.
"First and foremost, EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a market rate apartment!"

that has to be, without a doubt- one of the most IGNORANT staements i've ever seen on this or any other message board.
have you ever heard of roommates? those are the things that LOTS and LOTS of people who can't afford a place all their own get, in order to have a roof over their heads.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Good idea, but yelling is not
The poster has been yelled at enough. I agree that trying to find a housemate is a good idea in order to get out of section 8 housing, or find a personal injury/plantiff's attorney is a good idea.

In the long term, there needs to be better oversight of management and that all supervisors should go through tenant's rights training.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. the tenants might want to take that rights clas as well...
so that they know and understand exactly where their "rights" end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Not a bad idea either
But I think a little tenderness is due here, but with constructive ideas, instead of yelling at the poster. Please.

TIA, Benny
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. and also remember- we only have one side of the story here...
from someone with, to say the least, a rather questionable perspective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
52. Thank you, benny. You're right... I've been yelled out MORE than enough.
There are posts I don't see, and for obvious good reason.

When someone is in my corner to take them on, I appreciate it.

Again, thank you.

If only you knew the things I've had yelled at me....

:cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 22nd 2024, 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Democrats » Elizabeth Edwards Supporters Group Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC