I just asked Skinner to delete my account

[Horse with no Name]

If telling the truth and setting the record straight is now considered calling out...there is NO hope for this place.
So good luck to you all if I end up TS'd.
Keep fighting the good fight. :hug:

[bpeale]

1. don't be discouraged...

i asked that mine be deleted two weeks ago. of course they can find me when they need money to pay the bills, but when you want them to delete your account they are nowhere to be found. i still have had no response to my request.

[chimpymustgo]

2. Horse, what happened? There are so few voices of sanity left around here.

Is there a thread we can give you some support on?

[MissDeeds]

3. Hey Horse and Bpeale

Please don't go. True, the DU main pages are rife with infighting and vitriol right now, but hang out here with the Edwards folks for awhile. We welcome your insights and look forward to your posts.

:grouphug:

[asdjrocky]

4. I'm not sure if you, or anyone should do that.

There is local work to do, and you can stay connected here at DU. If not make sure you join our little site, or one of the many mini-sites popping up all over.

It's about action, and a movement, not a candidate, or a forum.

[pamela]

5. Don't go Horse.

We need folks like you, and bpeale too. Just avoid the loonies in GDP or give us a head's up if you do wander in there and need help fighting their lunacy. We'll call in the calvary!

[waiting for hope]

6. Nooo!

Don't go - there will be sanity here after the convention - and who's going to hold their feet to the fire with John's platform? Please stay, and just wait, there will be some "I told you so" threads to start. I fear for what is to happen and we need some sanity here, a trait you hold dear.

[AndyA]

7. Some of us know better, and you're one of the ones who do.

Somebody is going to have to be here to tell them "I told you so" when the next President turns out to be a big disappointment. Think Nancy Pelosi...we all had such high hopes for her, and to say she's been ineffective in her position is being generous.

Yes, we know that Hillary is going to be a second rate President at best.

And we also know that the GOP will give Barack the thrashing of his life if he's the nominee, and he might not survive it. (Can you say hello President McCain?)

Do what you feel you must, but I hope you stay. Hide the GDP forum if you must, expand your ignore list, but there are many here who agree with you and understand how you feel.

Best wishes to you.

[Horse with no Name]

14. Obama gives me the same overwhelming feeling of ick that Bush gives me

and you can bet your ass I will say I told you so.

Truth doesn't matter here anymore.
The Obamites have made truth an unnecessary commodity. There truly is no difference between them and the bushies.

[flyarm]

8. i keep saying everyday i am leaving du..i did for 2 days..i can't take it anymore

either..the liars for Obama have me not only perplexed but they have assured i will never vote for him..i will stay home instead and i know many great dems saying the same thing..i do not like Hillary i never did and never will, but now i find myself despising Obama even more..who would have thunk it..

not me...

but right now i feel a bit angry at John Edwards for getting out and putting us in this position..he knew he was the best man for the job..we did as well..and now we are left with two of the worst people..

and they expect us to vote for one of these two worst?..no thanks..if i vote it will be a write in of Edwards..or Gore but it will not be Hillary or Obama..

i can not vote for the worst any longer.

i just will not..then i can't be held accountable.

i have never not voted in my entire 56 yr lifetime..but this year, it will be a first because the democratic party has strapped us with shit!

and the idiots that thought their bullshit would make me like their candidate..well they were sorely mistaken!

fly

[balantz]

13. I feel some anger toward him for leaving too.

But I really don't know the whole story, so I can't really stay mad at him for very long at this point.

[spooky3]

9. Please, all JRE supporters, I am asking you to please stay.

Just ignore GD: P if you must.

But the sanity of your posts are among the best things here.

[balantz]

10. Ditto!

Please ride this out with us if you can stomach it. Just watch things unfold, throw in some wisdom and useful info. when you can, and try not to take it personally.

[flyarm]

11. unfortunately it is personal..it is our country and the choices we have been given suck..worse

than that..i could not live with myself if i voted for either!

fly

[balantz]

12. Oh, I never said vote for another. And it is personal on a very real level.

But as someone like the Dalai Lama would tell us, they can chain you and beat you, but they can't touch you. Or something to that effect.

And staying on board here would be valuable to the rest of us.

[spooky3]

16. yes, and we may be able to help each other cope with the next 10 months.

[flyarm]

15. please do not leave horse with no name...you are DU and people like you

are what made Du so wonderful..that is before this election cycle..

it would never be the same without you..but i know how you feel..i feel the same..

just take a break..i am going to as well.

i need you here!!

fly

[FlyingSquirrel]

17. That sucks. You should just stop coming for awhile

[Horse with no Name]

18. You are an Obama supporter in the John Edwards forum?

Do I have that correct?

[FlyingSquirrel]

19. No, I'm an Edwards supporter who has chosen sides - just like Saracat

who has chosen the Clinton side. Should she be rushed out of here too?

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. Hang in there! We love you!

:hug:

[saracat]

21. I am considering that too Horse. I love this group though.

They just locked my thread too. No info is allowed. But I was angry and not nice.

[Yael]

22. Keep it up, Saracat, and they may make the decision for you.

Just sayin'.

[Two Americas]

23. I have to say...

I have been reading your bullying and threatening posts in GD-P the last few days, and I am disgusted by them.

No one is bothering you. Why do you feel compelled to go out of your way to be abusive to others, whose only crime is that they disagree with you?

I read your post where you smeared all of us as McCain supporters and freepers. What would possess you to do that? I can only think that you have very little confidence in your own opinions, and that you depend upon maligning others to bolster your own ego when you are confronted by an argument for which you have no response.

I am very disappointed by the way you are acting lately, and strongly suggest that you re-consider what you are doing. Is whatever it is that is bugging you that important that you would spread the sort of hatred you are spreading and permanently burn bridges with those whom you once considered friends and allies?

[Yael]

25. I am not "bullying and threatening"

I am sick and tired of the attacks out of supposed Democrats on our nominee. When they launch, I respond. It is supremely mind blowing.

Then again, I am an Edwards supporter. One who cares about the fate of this nation moreso than personal vendettas -- and if you read through the pages in this forum, they are replete with nothing but vendetta talk because John was shafted (and yes, I believe he was).

I can appreciate that most of you have gone to the HRC camp. That is why the old Edwards' people (who still support his efforts) don't come to this forum any longer. I have received a handful of PMs from my old Edwards buddies here asking my why I still bother. It is the HRC Supporters Lite forum in here.

Hell, I posted that I was going on a company trip to New Orleans and wanted advice on how to connect the event organizers to JRE's people for a rebuilding effort and was blasted to the moon for having the GAUL to ask EDWARDS SUPPORTERS the question in the EDWARDS FORUM.

It is beyond belief.

[cornermouse]

26. That's gall, not Gaul.

Gaul 1 (gôl)
n.
1. A Celt of ancient Gaul.
2. A French person.

[Yael]

28. My bad -- thanks for the correction

I have been apparently misspelling that for 40 years. *embarrassed*

[Two Americas]

36. yes you are

Yael, please listen to what others are saying and reconsider your point of view. You have one particular notion as to what an Edwards supporter should do and say, others have a different idea. You don't like hearing those other points of view, and feel compelled to assassinate the character of people with whom you disagree. You are not listening to them, and you are not responding with consideration and understanding. You believe that they should not have the opinions they are expressing, but it is not up to you to decide what are and what are not acceptable opinions.

Supporting a candidate does not mean worshiping him. Criticism of our political leaders is an essential component of a healthy democratic process, and it is our civic duty as responsible citizens to hold politicians' feet to the fire. I think you are right that some Edwards supporters, and Obama supporters, refuse to hear any criticism of their heroes and as you say they are free to ignore it and not come here and read critical comments. But your insinuations of disloyalty or covert agendas on the part of dissidents is highly suppressive and un-democratic.

Once again, in this most recent post you intentionally misrepresent people here for the purpose of maligning them. You well , know that I am no supporter of Clinton, you know that CJP is not. to name just two examples of people who are exceptions to your "HRC Supporters Lite" description. Saracat has been a Clinton supporter, but she has never tried to shove that down our throats as you and other Obama supporters have done with Obama.

It is highly insulting and inaccurate to describe what I have written here - pouring my heart out and giving every word I write much careful consideration and thought - as "nothing but vendetta talk" or dealing merely with an "Edwards was shafted" theme. I don't think I have ever said that Edwards was shafted. Dismissing and trivializing what others are saying is a way to bully people. Hinting that they are disloyal Democrats or that they should watch what they say lest they be banished - as you most certainly have on more than one occasion in very clear language - is a way to threaten people.

It is also bullying to sow dissension and try to break apart the hard won loyalty to one a other and solidarity that a few of us have built here. What you see here, and what bothers you so much that you feel a need to destroy it, is real honesty, real passion, real friendship and real loyalty, not the shallow and temporary feeling of belonging to something that comes from joining some chanting mob of fans idolizing their hero and seeking to eliminate anyone who spoils the mood for them by introducing critical thinking to the discussion.

[Yael]

46. TA -- here is the score

If I broad brushed, I apologize. I do not mean to insinuate that everyone who supported JRE and is still active in this forum is intent on derailing the Democratic agenda. I also agree that criticism is healthy.

However, between CJP and Saracat -- they are begging to be banned with the threads they opened the last few days with nothing of content, simply trashing the Democratic nominee or the Democrats who are supporting that effort.

No one wanted Edwards more than I did, and no one appreciates his approach to the issues that face us more than me. I have accepted that his methods were not palatable to the general electorate and after much reflection, moved on (as did the Senator himself). I still think he would be our best choice. Color me crazy, but I am a sucker for the Dean/Edwards Populist approach.

This isn't about "loyalty" to an individual, it is about "loyalty" to a cause. The cause being health care, ending the war, reestablishing our reputation in the world and (hopefully) bringing our economy back from the brink of collapse.

It will be a group effort. The President is but one person -- we need a MAJORITY (not plurality) in Congress to make this happen. That can only happen if we are behind the same causes -- regardless of who is leading the charge and how they are going about it. As posted below, Obama's approach isn't my approach either -- but I had a choice and that choice was to go with the one whom the party nominated as the standard bearer.

The ones who are out there posting with no intent other than to tear the nominee (and our party) down need to know that effective June 11th, it won't be tolerated any longer. That is not a threat -- that is DU rules. They will either need to get on board with the party's agenda, or leave -- and that includes this forum.

This is simply too important from a policy perspective for emotions to take over.

[Two Americas]

57. you don't understand

Saracat and CJP are speaking from devotion to the cause, not to a personality. You refuse to admit that possibility. You will only see your own methods, your own ideas of being devoted to the cause as being legitimate or valid.

You are making a false and misleading statement when you say that people are "out there posting with no intent other than to tear the nominee." You are threatening people and suppressing freedom of speech when you say "that effective June 11th, it won't be tolerated any longer."

Do you truly believe that anyone here needs you to lecture them as to what is at stake, how the political process works, or what the DU rules are? You are hiding behind those things.

Here is the real score - you are defending politicians, you are saying we need to be "behind" them and "support" them, without defining those things. I support CJP and saracat. Can you understand that? I support them more than I will ever support any politician. I would support and defend you with the same vigor. I think that CJP and saracat are more important, more powerful and more valuable than any politician. I think they are the hope and the future of the party and of the country. You may disagree with that, but I think that these statements I am making are on a vastly higher plane than what you are saying and that they command respect and awe if you give them some thought.I don't agree that we are nobodies. I don't agree that we are defined by which celebrity we worship or adore. I don't agree that we all need to line up behind some powerful and wealthy person. I don't agree that we don't matter.

Yael, is it not true that you yourself are uncomfortable with your own decision about this? Is that not the reason you feel the need to bash those who went the other way? Is it not why you need to have us all agree with you, and why it bothers you so much that some of us are still holding put? Damn, that is OK. No one would lord it over you, or think less of you. Nothing would be lost, and so much could be gained. I have to believe that if you were 100% satisfied and comfortable with the positions you are taking you would not be bothered by what any of us are saying. Don't just go along with the mob. I know that in your heart of hearts you KNOW that saracat, CJP and I are not the enemies and evil ones that the mob wants to describe us as. You know we are not. You know that we are making strong points, and that those points are close to your own thinking. Why struggle with this? Why stay in that miserable place, and then try to alleviate the confusion by enforcing one side of your conflicted thinking on the rest of us? Do you not think that every one of us here is struggling with the same thing you are struggling with? Is it a good trade off to make enemies of us for the sake of resolving the conflict in your own mind for a short while? Why let the mob do your thinking for you?

I know that you desperately want what you are saying here to be true. We all do. God I wish it were true. But I also know that this is nagging at you constantly, that it needs constant reinforcement and that you need continual reassurance, and that when 30 or 40 people all repeat the same thing it eases your doubts about it a little. Let go. Stop fighting it. You know that this is not the real deal. You know that this will not work. You know that you feel forced to knuckle under and submit to the inevitable, and that all you are expressing is a weak and insubstantial hope that things will be all right of we all do what you are saying we must do.

[Yael]

65. TA -- It is working with the cards you are dealt

It moves from being an agenda issue to a personality issue when that isn't addressed.

The hand we are dealt is that Barack Obama is the nominee.

Choices:

1. Get behind him and work/hope like hell that we take Congress in a sweep so that (i) the rs don't know what hit them :D and (ii) we can move more progressive legislation than imaginable.

2; Trash him and let the country go to seed for 4 more years.

I hear you -- and believe me, I understand. I did not come in here to argue reality vs idealism. I came in to light a fire under Saracat and CJP that they are about to lose their voice here.

Edit to add -- sidenote about me... If I didn't care about these dedicated people, I would have sat back and let them hang themselves with as much rope as toe mods saw fit. It is BECAUSE I care and know where they are coming from that I blew a Tuesday night posting about it.

[Two Americas]

72. we are

We are working with the cards we were dealt, we are just playing the hand differently than you are.

You say that "trashing him" - which is how you characterize honest and sincere criticisms of the politician or his supporters - leads to Republican victories. I disagree with that, and I believe that I can prove to your satisfaction that the opposite is true.

Criticism of the candidate does not hurt the candidate or the party, it dos not help the Republicans - all it does is "harsh the buzz" of the true believers. It makes them emotionally uncomfortable. If they had any confidence and if they were in fact supporting anything of principle or substance, they would not be intolerant of criticism. But they are highly intolerant of criticism, and that is because they are going for being right in a very self-righteous way, they are not going for results. We desperately need to be going for results, not a mutual admiration society of validated self-righteousness, and you cannot have both since they work against each other.

"Get behind and hope" will not work. It never has and never will, as even a cursory understanding of political history proves. Once you are unconditionally behind, there is no more hope because you have given up any and all leverage. You have inverted our representative democracy, so that rather than us demanding the the politicians represent us, we are demanding of each other that we all represent them. If they get elected without having to feel any pressure from us or hear any criticism, what on earth would motivate them to change once they hold power? Nothing. It has never worked to support them first and THEN ask them Tto represent us. Never.

On your other point - idealism versus realism - they are not contradictory. That is a lie that many in the activist community peddle. It is a trick to block and suppress the left. The truth is that you can have both, or you are very likely to wind up with neither. Even if "we" win elections, as with the mid-terms, we can still lose both morally and practically. The most practical and realistic thing to do, as Democrats, is to stand on principle and idealism. History bears that out as well. When people say "I agree with those principles but we need to be practical" what they really mean is that they are opposed to those principles, or have insufficient courage to fight for them, and further more they are also leading us down the least realistic and least practical path as well. So we lose our principles AND we lose elections. The alternative is to stand strongly for principles and idealism and thereby win elections. Don't be fooled by that false either/or dichotomy that many are peddling.

[Yael]

76. Then I suggest you take it up with Skinner

Because posting trash RW rumors and nonsense is not "critical criticism".

There is a difference, and yes it is a nuance -- but there is a line and once crossed, it is difficult to retreat from.

Many here see/know where that line is. Many others don't.

They have had fair warning that the members here will not sell out this country over idealism.

[saracat]

85. Did it ever occur to you that some of us are working on campaigns ,congressional and

otherwise? Did it ever occur to you that for some of us Obama is a liability for our candidates? I pray every time I knock on a door that no one asks about the presidential race. Everywhere in MY district I go, they hate Obama. The ONLY way my candidates can get elected is to distance themselves from the top of the ticket.

And you think to light a fire under me because of an internet bulletin board that wants me to hold a certain opinion? I will conform to the rules of this board. I always have.This is NOT my first primary on DU. But it is for sure the nastiest. I know the rules.Skinner gives us a "week to vent". I was venting.

But please don't even intimate that I don't care. I do. I am desperately concerned with our downline and Obama is not part of the picture.

[Greylyn58]

41. Whoa! Hold it Right There

I usually don't respond to posts such as these, but I feel compelled.

Firstly...I take exception to this forum being referred to as Hillary-Lite. A couple of people have expressed "moderate" support for her, but if you had bothered to read most of the post over the last few months you would see that we are still Edwards Supporters and support neither of the remaining candidates!

Secondly...I personally support neither candidate. The man I supported suspended his campaign back in January and the two remaining people offer nothing but more of what we have endured over the last 8 years.

So please don't come in here expecting us to bow down to the messiah. I find it beyond belief that Obama supporters continue to want it of us. A lot of them have gone so far as to make posts saying those that don't should be tombstoned and have been almost gleeful about booting fellow Democrats who hold a different opinion.

For myself, I personally don't trust him and he has said and done nothing that proves he will change anything. I hear his words "Hope and Change", but they smack of empty rhetoric. Besides, anyone who says they admire anything about Ronald Regan should make most sane people run in the opposite direction.

Now...if I get tombstoned for speaking my mind...so be it.

[Yael]

50. Greylyn58, I found out in mid-March that my company

was holding their 2009 annual event in New Orleans. The last 3 years were Orlando, Dallas and San Diego, so I was excited about going back to NOLA.

I posted in this forum asking for help putting the organizers in touch with the JRE people to set up a rebuilding weekend -- either before or after -- for anyone who had any suggestions.

On that thread and a few others, I was skewered because I had the unmitigated gall (spelled correctly this time) to post such a "divisive question" in the "sanctuary".

Me -- the person who was championing Edwards votes on Super Tuesday for viability. Me, who opened a CafePress site out of pocket so that Iris' Edwards Democrat designs sold be sold at cost (in February). Me, the one who helped launch the JRE fundraiser on January 16th ($7mm in one day).

Not a soul came to my defense on this CANDIDATE NEUTRAL, JOHN EDWARDS' POVERTY/REBUILDING assistance question.

Blasted to the moon and back, I was, for having the "balls" to even ask.

Meanwhile, thread after thread about HRC support.

Please.

[Two Americas]

60. we still love you

Please go back to being the Yael we know and love. We accept you. Can you accept us?

Can't you just let saracat and CJP and others be themselves and express their opinions? It really, really, really is not going to help McCain or harm you, or the party, or the country in any way.

[Yael]

62. TA -- I am speaking out because I don't want them to leave

I made a lot of mistakes. I broad brushed and I was abrasive and for that, I am sorry.

[Two Americas]

67. yes

I thought so.

I don't want to see that either, but damn sometimes you need to respect those you love and trust them. The opinions and feelings that the dissidents are expressing here are genuine, they have substance, they are not going to go away. I know this is painful - we are being told that one thing is true and that we must not contradict it, while we know deep inside that it is not true. I cannot make heads or tails of it half the time, but what I can do is first and foremost, last and always be loyal to the others here. I don't know how that is going to turn out, I don't have any great alternative plan. But what is happening in the party right now is that we are being pressured to turn on each other for the supposed sake of the greater cause. I will not do that. I will not leave anyone behind. None of us should have to, we should be asked to do that.

Step back and take a look at this. The people of West Virginia? "Who needs em?? Fuck 'em!!" was posted again and again, with hardly a word of dissent from any Obama supporter. Clinton supporters? "They might as well just go vote for McCain, they are no better!" Anyone who has refused to jump wholeheartedly on the Obama bandwagon has been mercilessly abused and attacked - racists, math challenged, uneducated, bitter, stupid, freepers. I cannot remember one time when I objected to any of that abuse that any Obama supporter said "you know, you are right. This is getting out of hand." Never. Instead we have endless piling on and gleeful cheering from the mob, we have character assassination, we have vicious personal attacks on any perceived heretic. This is not right. It is just not right, no matter what the excuse or how great the cause. More importantly than that, it will not work. If you think the resistance to this is intolerable here among us, just wait until you see what the response from the general public is going to be.

We are seeing an out-of-control mob action hate fest going on. It is not a good thing, no matter how we try to justify it. Do you really believe that those of us saying this do not see what we say we are seeing? That we have some hidden agenda or motive? That our perceptions are not valuable or reliable?

[Yael]

70. I have no doubt that perception is reality

And I am an enthusiastic but reluctant Obama supporter -- so take that into account. My backing is coattails, not emotion.

I DO respect adverse opinions, but there is a line. To me, that line is doing the RNC's work FOR them while they sit back and sip whiskey.

Your call on how you want to move forward with this election -- and know that i DO appreciate you (and the others' passion on it).

I will say though, that this site is about to be locked down in support of the ticket because, even though it isn't how we wanted them handled, the issues exist and the owners of the site are viewing it through the "greater good" lens.

I don't want to see anyone leave, but in the same token, they need to respect the agenda of the site owners -- and in a week from yesterday -- that is the only agenda that flies here (unseating Rs with Ds -- no matter how it is done).

[Two Americas]

83. oh come on

That is not the "RNC's work." The RNC's work is done everyday here without anyone raising objections - the promotion of "personal responsibility" libertarianism, the dismissal and hatred directed at the poor and at immigrants and blue collar people, rural people and southern people, the promotion of "free market" ideas. That is the real work of the Republican party and there are hundreds and hundreds of willing and enthusiastic helpers here on almost every topic.

As far as Internet boards go, a true Democrat would see the posters as the workers on a board, the ones producing the real value. Think about that one. How can we promote ideals in the political realm that our entire lives and all of our actions and our thinking contradict everyday? The answer? We cannot. We may have little or no power as peons and laborers up against management, but that is no justification for you turning on your fellow workers and defending management.

[pamela]

78. You're right and I for one am sorry.

I wasn't one of the ones who bashed you in that thread. In fact, I didn't post in it at all. But I read it and I was disgusted by the way you were treated. I should have spoken up and I didn't and I'm sorry for that. It was one of the few threads posted during that time period that actually belonged in this forum and you didn't deserve the treatment you received.

I didn't switch to Clinton or Obama after John dropped out because I thought (and still think) that they are two sides of the same corporate coin. But I can respect the fact that some really great Edwards supporters did switch-some to Clinton and some to Obama. I haven't been on DU or the Edwards forum much lately because I'm pretty sick of all this shit. The supporters of both corporate candidates have been acting like total assholes. Some of that has started to leak into the Edwards forum and that's just sad.

[cornermouse]

87. Sort by date and go look at the thread.

Your memory is inaccurate. But even if it wasn't that doesn't excuse the fact that Yael is now following people around and threatening them.

[cornermouse]

86. And this is why you're really here?

Out of curiosity I went and looked up the post you refer to. Pretty mild stuff and your memory might not be entirely accurate as far as that particular thread is concerned. Perhaps you should revisit it yourself.

Historically speaking, it was in the same time period when Old Crusoe and a couple of other posters, showing a distinct lack of consideration and respect for others, were aggressively trying to proselytize and otherwise sell and/or force Obama on the Edwards group. It's clear from looking at it that you were already identifying yourself as an Obama supporter. Add the fact that GD-P was already a cesspool and you wonder why people wanted to stop that from entering the Edwards forum? People need to, in effect, be able to go home and more or less shut the door on the outside from time to time whether literally or in the cyber sense.

"Thread after thread about HRC support" is an exaggeration. But even if it wasn't an exaggeration, no one has tried to push anyone into voting for Hillary in the Edwards group and if you go out in GD-P you'll find few Hillary supporters still out there. The party has effectively been split and "cleansed" by Obama's hard core supporters which is exactly why I think Obama is going to lose the G.E. unless tactically speaking, he takes a hard turn to the right side of the aisle. Historically speaking, divide and conquer only works if you're using it on the other side, not your own.

You've made it clear in this thread that you consider it your personal duty to mop up any and all resistance to Obama with a special emphasis on saracat and CPJ. Why? You might want to think really hard about that one.

[cornermouse]

24. I saw what you posted on the other thread, Yael.

You're pretty obvious.

[Yael]

27. Nice edit, but I am not looking to get anyone tombstoned.

Those who insist on trashing the nominee of the Democratic party will, however, be extended the snark of me offering to make the Pizza Parlor reservation call for them.

You see -- it isn't personal to me any more. After John dropped out, I spent weeks miserable that our BEST voice was gone from the race. I promoted people voting for him on ST in the hopes that he reached viability -- and when he didn't, I moped for another week.

At the end of the day -- I care more about this country, health care and ending the war than to deliberately try to sabotage the Democratic chance at powah in the fall and will speak out against anyone who DOES think that will be a good idea (to make the country "pay" for not nominating JRE or HRC or anyone else they may have supported).

[balantz]

30. Many of us are questioning that the motives of our party

may not always be in the best interest of the people. To keep such an open discussion is our patriotic duty. Anyone with sense knows that most politicians are not saints, and that greedy interests can infiltrate our government. It is our duty to look into these possibilities. We are disgruntled after too many years of political games at our expense.

[Yael]

32. There is no question, balantz.

No question at all.

Washington at it finest is corrupt to the core.

My greatest hope is that JRE is confirmed as AG and they take the leash off and let him at it. Why I am not in favor of him for a VP role. The man has the teeth and the drive to root out every last cockroach on K-Street.

[balantz]

34. That's great.

Why do you find it necessary to attempt to get everyone to fall in line? This is a free society (at least it's supposed to be). I realize that DU might enforce certain chosen stances "for the good of the party", or some such reasoning. But we here are also concerned citizens and wish to discuss things that perhaps are not being addressed enough.

[Yael]

38. I hear you.

I wanted John's approach too.

A portion of my journal back in January (with credit to the person at DKos that originally wrote it):

Obama - United We Sit At A Table To Bargain
Clinton - United We Sneak Off To A Backroom To Bargain
Edwards - United We Reach Our 300 Million Pound Fist Out And Fucking End This Tyrany And Take Our Democracy Back

Do you think I feel any different today?

I don't. I STILL think that the JRE approach (populism) is the best. Thing is, the people of this country disagreed with me. They want to try Obama's approach. I have a relatively unknown D (Also an early Edwards supporter) who is running to unseat an entrenched R in the house this summer. Weighing the "druthers", I realized that in order to make the sweep we need, we all have to concede.

I conceded on methodology (as platforms are determined by Congress, not the President).

We can either rend our garments and gnash our teeth that our way of getting things done wasn't as popular as we had hoped, or we can ride the coattails of those whose methods we find inferior, but have the coattails to get the progressives voted into the seats to actually make it happen.

I looked at the landscape and decided that it was simply too important.

I can respect that you disagree.

[balantz]

39. Thank you. n/t

[Two Americas]

63. hold on there

Don't let others do your thinking for you. Don't side with bullies. You know all of us. You know that we are not "trashing the nominee" - God Yael that sounds like "insulting the honor of the King" or something, or "enemy of the state" as the Stalinists said in order to justify suppressing dissent.

You know that people here are not insincere or disloyal - you know that. Stop trying to convince yourself and others that you do not know that. You know that the most loyal people, the ones with the most to offer, the most valuable people are the ones with doubts and the ones being attacked for expressing those doubts. The contributions of saracat and CJP are each worth those of a hundred of the people in the jeering, howling mob out there. You must know that in your heart. Don't go against your heart. There is no cause that justifies ever doing that.

[Yael]

68. I am specifically speaking to 2 threads, TA

One by CJP and one by Saracat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6280628

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6214933

[Two Americas]

80. both valid

I saw both of those threads. They both raise valid and important points.

It is a false and counter-productive idea to think that suppressing posts such as that help the cause, if we are to perceive ourselves as responsible citizens on a representative democracy. There is no evidence whatsoever that if we all say only good things about "our glorious presumptive nominee" that it will result in gaining even one vote for said nominee. In my 40 years of experience canvassing I have found precisely the opposite to be true. People are not stupid, and they are much, much more open to hearing the traditional principles and ideals of the party - is that not the cause? - if I am willing to acknowledge the flaws of the party's candidates and if I am willing to honestly criticize the party.

I go out every election with the personal commitment to convert a minimum of 100 Republican voters to at least not vote Republican. If we are going to win elections, that means expanding the number of Democratic voters, and that means talking to "the enemy" as it were, not hanging with like-minded people and reinforcing each others prejudice and boosting each others confidence and chanting in unison. These real results can not be achieved by gilding the lily and taking the "no critical words" approach that the activists here advocate - insist upon, actually, or else. People hate being sold, and they hate being preached at. If the party owns your ass, and you are a true believer rah rah "company man" you will not make much headway. But everything in the Obama campaign is geared against that effective and honest approach, more so than it was with the Gore and Kerry campaigns, which I did not think possible. There is no way that we can get very many people to fall in love with our aloof and arrogant professorial candidates or their mealy mouth watered down Republican lite positions. It ain't gonna happen. We can deny that, we can wring our hands, we can call those who are not on our sides idiots, and that will not change a thing.

If we are going for being right, telling ourselves we are right, and that everyone else is wrong - and deny and hide the flaws in our candidates so that we can feel self-righteous and be loyal to the team - we cannot get results. Do we want to be right, or get results? Being right is the consolation prize in politics, and we have been settling for that for too long. The Obama campaign is a campaign of people getting to feel self-righteous, and the supporters are deeply resistant to any talk about getting results. Since a certain number of people have fallen in love with the man, we are suppose to believe that if we stay in love with him, and act like love-struck teenagers, that an unlimited number if people will also fall in love with him. But we already saw through the primaries that the exact opposite happened. Hell, I wound up defending Clinton for God's sake - that is how bad the problem is. I did not think I would ever do that.

The reason that people here at DU and in the activist community are so resistant to hearing any criticism of the nominee has nothing whatsoever to do with any real world results. They are intolerant of any internal dissonance, and people telling the truth introduces dissonance and makes them feel uncomfortable.

[Two Americas]

29. defending saracat

You well know by now that there are a few of us here who will defend saracat when she is attacked. Was this post just a little "drive by" - poking the people here with a stick to see if you can get a reaction? You cannot imagine that you are persuading anyone or making a compelling argument here. You must not care about alienating and provoking people. You refuse to stand toe-to-toe and debate with me. You refuse to respond to any of my points. You lurk around, and then see if you can pick a scab or provoke a fight. What is that about? I think it is cowardly and disingenuous.

Some of us consider the value of our friends and soul mates here to be greater than the need to score points at the expense of others, or to feel like part of some "winning" mob and get some vicarious pleasure out of that. Can you respect that and leave people alone?

[ClericJohnPreston]

31. Gee

is everyone finally seeing that I what I said MONTHS ago about Yael was accurate????

Hmm???

My perception is right about 99% of the time and I challenge anyone to see me in error about an ....ITE. Disingenuous to the core because Yael herself doesn't have any sense of PERSPECTIVE. She convinces herself about laudable actions in defense of the Party, which merely disguises her inability to argue with any of us on a level surface.

THIS IS THE EDWARDS FORUM. YOU ARE ABOUT AS EDWARDS AS BUSH YAEL. YOU ARE HERE TO SOW DISCORD, GET THREADS LOCKED AND TAKE NAMES FOR YOUR TOMBSTONE LIST. THE ALERT BUTTON IS ALWAYS ON.

GO AWAY DISRUPTOR.

[Yael]

33. Your perception of a person writing on the interwebs whom you have "known"

for 5 months and a day?

Do not accuse me of being a Republican.

On another note, this is Democratic Underground and the comments to you the other day should be heeded. If you keep this kind of shit up, you will find a granite cookie in your stocking. Seriously. Tone it down. A bunch.

[ClericJohnPreston]

35. and you prove me right

ONCE AGAIN.

Like clockwork, you spend more time lurking here than in your own playground.

You are not ADMIN. You are not a mod. How dare you threaten me with tombstoning. The only one who should tone down their speech is you, as you are merely an antagonist, here in the Edwards forum to sow discord.

The day you are HALF as liberal as we are here will be doomsday.

[Yael]

40. Sweetie, I am not "lurking" here

I came looking for your little rant after your obnoxious thread the other day and then did the same for Saracat after hers was locked tonight.

As expected, I found what I was looking for in both cases.

[ClericJohnPreston]

44. of course you will always find what you want

you are an ideologue.

[cornermouse]

49. it's pretty obvious you came looking for people to attack.

You followed saracat here specifically for that reason. You seem to think you have the right to threaten people personally. Consider the possibility that hatred can be addictive and then go look in the mirror.

[Yael]

37. TA -- What debate?

I wanted to post another reply to saracat in her thread, and saw it was locked. I knew she would be here, so I posted it here.

She is gunning to be TS'd from here -- and WHY?

Hell, even the most ardent HRC supporters have given up the Hate Barack threads in GD-P and moved on to the hcf.net type of sites. WHY do people feel the need to post the kind of thing that she did?

We have the first black nominee for President. He wasn't my first choice either (or my second, or even third), but I have a much greater appeal -- and that is to stand as a country and take our democracy back. Institute healthcare for all, end the war and put the damn criminals of this administration under a microscope while we restore what is left of our Constitution.

Others feel the need to derail that effort at any cost because it isn't being done how or by who they chose to do it.

It makes as much sense to me as the nuts claiming to vote McCain in order to give Hillary another shot in 2012. Selfish bastards who care not one whit about the well being of our country that they would trash it down the toilet over a personality conflict.

[ClericJohnPreston]

43. Have you ever

fact checked your pick? Compared his record side by side with Hillarys? If you have, you might imagine why we are so cynical and questioning of the choices made for us, by less informed people.

Be that as it may, because you are blind to truth, you came here by your own admission spoiling for a fight.

My thread was a proper one in GDP. It never got locked. It wasn't inappropriate. It ticled off ideologues who didn't pause to consider the question, but proved the hypothesis correct about blind loyalty.

We are all Democrats here. Do you understand that? Can you comprehend we are MORE liberal than you are? Have you ever marched for freedom? Have you ever represented the poor at no charge in matters of discrimination or profiling? Have you ever done anything more than support a candidate?

I have done all the above. You, I fear, have a long way to go to show your enlightened liberal status.

[Yael]

51. The "I'm more liberal than thou" game is so 1970s

Liberal = supporting the Democratic candidate.

Not Liberal = trashing the Democratic candidate (and their supporters) at every opportunity to earn 'street cred'.

Psst -- there is no 'street cred' on the interwebs, but you already know that, right? In fact, you keep it up after the 11th and you will be looking for new interwebs to post your anonymous opinion on...

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Americas]

45. why do you care?

Can you not leave people alone?

People may well get TS-ed here, as you keep suggesting. That would be tragic. Have you no compassion, no empathy? Why would you be pleased about that? Why are you calling for that? What makes you the overseer, obsessed with hovering over people and lecturing them and deciding what people should and should not be thinking and writing?

Your characterizations of people are insensitive at best, hostile and malicious at worst. They are completely out of line.

The people here ARE concerned about the need "to stand as a country and take our democracy back" and "institute health care for all, end the war and put the damn criminals of this administration under a microscope while we restore what is left of our Constitution." It is utterly insulting and demeaning of you to say that they are not - and that is what you are trying to say. Their passion and commitment to those is the very reason they are posting the things they are posting. They don't agree with you as to the best approach to achieve those things - in all sincerity and with much thought and consideration. You have NO RIGHT to continue to call people's motives and sincerity into question merely because you have a different opinion and are not comfortable with anyone disagreeing with you about this. Continuing to do that is bullying and threatening your former friends.

I will tell you what amazes me - the deep loyalty and affection that everyone here has for the party and for the other people in the party, and the reluctance they have to fully expressing their opinions out of consideration for others and their reluctance to leave. You exploit that, you try to drive them off. You are cynically and selfishly taking advantage of the very thing you accuse people here of not having - concern about the future of the party and the country and loyalty to the party and to fellow Democrats. Were it not for that, everyone here would tell you to take a flying leap, and that is exactly what the general public is going to say if you take this same attitude into the general election. That is the very problem that some of us have with the Obama phenomenon. You are saying "agree or leave" and indulging in the Stalinesque tactic of threatening people with banishment if they don't shut up and if they refuse to stop expressing dissent.

[Yael]

53. You are free to disagree with me -- and I support the differing opinion

However, as mentioned -- rendering your garments and stomping your feet + $2 won't even get you a latte. ;)

All I am saying to Saracat and CJR is that they need to tone it down or find another website to post on as in 6 days, this place goes from being TrashDemocratsUnderground to DemocraticUnderground and part of that is not full bore trash talking about our nominee or his supporters in the manner that they have been doing the last few days.

That isn't my rule, it is Skinner's. I have no want or desire to be in charge of the ban button either. Just know that it is coming.

[cornermouse]

56. Divide and conquer.

Throw in a wink to try to disarm. Follow it up with more threats.

[saracat]

47. How many times and how often ,do I have to explain that, I do not like or

"trust" Obama? I have given explanation after explanation. I don't like how he handles himself politically. I don't like what he did to Alice Palmer. I don't like how he used race and lied about it(And he did). I don't like how he presents himself as an agent of change when he is anything but. I do not like the revelations about Rezko . I do not like the Black separatist Church and Rev, Wright. I don't like Michelle's Black separatist thesis. I don't like his taking money from Lobbyists and pretending he doesn't. I don't like the situation with Robert Blackwell and his misrepresenting the fact that he took thousands of dollars from a "single " client that he was represent to get 8 million in state funds.. I don't like that Jones credited him with legislation authored by others to make him look good. I don't like that Jones threatened the CBC. I don't like that maxine Waters was threatened.I don't like the fact that most of the preachers he hangs with are racist and homophobic. I don't like his "present " votes and yes, I understand how they work. I don't like his well documented contempt for "babyboomers". I don't Like the racial element of his insulting Edwards. I don't like his contempt of women and the poor people of Ohio. I don't like his wife and her outrageous comments about "clawing Bill Clinton's eyes out" and insinuating that Clinton needed "to take care of her own house before she was in the White House". I do not like what Obama said today smearing a Democratic ex president with insinuations of business illegalities while not even facing his own irregularities.I have absolutely no reason to think he will protect Roe when he supported some of the most anti choice judicial appointments and had to have his arm twisted by reid to vote against Roberts who he "liked". I find nothing to like about Obama and somehow you think I should support him.And I am really tired of explaining WHY I don't like him.

I want to know WHY I can't have my opinion? Can't we agree to differ? I will not be posting anything derogatory about Obama is a short time but you seem to feel I owe him entrance to my mind or thought field or something. I cannot trun my mind off sufficiently not to question what he is and I do not wish too.Support whom you like.Just don't try to force me to support your choice.

[Yael]

54. Saracat, you are free to not like the man

I don't like HRC for her lying and lack of morals/ethics/character (too numerous to list), so we are even.

What I am saying to you is that he is the person the Democrats in this country elected and he is our nominee.

Trashing him (and his supporters as CJR is infamous for) is going to earn you a pizza in 6 days if you don't cool it.

Here is the deal (as posted above). I wanted JRE's approach. I think that this country is full of clueless wonders because they don't agree with me. The country made their choice, and it is what it is.

I can either set about trashing the candidate and hoping that the country goes further into the hell-in-a-handbasket situation that * put us in, or I can get behind the agenda to get the Congress to a filibuster proof majority to end it.

I choose the latter.

Those who prefer to trash the agenda over the people standing at the dais in order to thwart the agenda (health care, the economy, the war) just to prove to the clueless that they were wrong and the "informed" were right are not going to win.

The continual trashing of our nominee is 4 more years of Bush over a disagreement of style (as policy is determined by Congress).

Sleep on that.

[saracat]

58. You are NOT getting it. I think Obama is BAD for the nation. And unless I read the rules wrong

I have at least 5 more days to speak my mind. I probably won't use them all but I can speak , for at least 5 more days to the folks I want to at the very least in this Forum.Why do you want to silence me? It is only a little longer.

[Yael]

61. Because I don't want you to leave.

Thats why.

[saracat]

64. Why does my continuing to express my beliefs about the presumptive

nominee, in the time left allowing me to do so, necessarily mean I am "leaving". After the 5 days, If I am still posting anything about Obama at that time(which I doubt) I will simply cease speaking of him.Not everything in politics is about Obama. In fact , I am going to exclude him from my political world so why is that a problem. I can still be here if I wish.Actually , I can even, per the rules "raise constructive criticism of the nominee" but I doubt I will do so.

[Yael]

69. As long as you keep it to PMs, nothing.

I'm just cautioning you what is coming.

[saracat]

73. I can say what I want right now can't I ? Till at least Sunday? Why are you saying PM's?

What are you "cautioning". me about? I don't understand. I know if I speak neagatively about the nominee after the 6 day period, I get TS"Ed Is that what you are warning me about? But why are you "cautioning me to what is coming" after I indicated I am not going to be talking about the nominee?

[Yael]

75. Again, because I don't want you to leave.

[saracat]

84. Why do you say this forum will be "shut down?"The JK Forum from 2004 is still up.

[Yael]

88. Where did I say that?

Link?

[Andrea]

90. I think she's referring to your post #70 above,

Where you said:

"I will say though, that this site is about to be locked down in support of the ticket because..."

I took it that way at first, too, and had to reread it a couple times before I thought that was not what you meant. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so perhaps it would be best if you explained what you meant.

[Yael]

91. "Locked down" does not equal "forum going away"

It means that the rules of the site that prohibit bashing of our candidates will be enforced once we move out of primary mode and into GE mode.

That happens on the 11th of June.

Thanks for the post -- I didn't realize that I had set another expectation out there and did not mean to.

[ClericJohnPreston]

77. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are really peddling tripe this evening. First you threaten, get called out for it, then try to rehabilitate your image by saying you are SLAMMING saracat and me, because you don't want us to leave.

You are kidding right?

You don't think anyone here is so stupid as to believe your alibi excuse for THREATS which stand clearly in this thread to mark your true goal, do you?

PUHLeaseeee.

Don't worry about me. I have more than enough hobbies to amuse me.

[Yael]

82. That is good to know

Because you keep on keeping on here and there will be no more "here" for you to "keep on keeping on".

:)

[kelligesq]

97. Saracat. amazing. All of your reasons are my reasons too. From

the beginning there was something about him that I didnt trust. Ididnt know what but I was waiting for it to come out...and it did - with more to come I feel. The Democratic Party is really going to be screwed....I have never heard of a party withdrawing their nomination - and the only way to do that would be to allow a convention fight...in order to save face.

The next few months should be interesting but I will say he is lucky, very lucky, much like a GWB - teflon - yet I feel still we don't know the worst of him - but we will - with any luck before it's too late.

[Two Americas]

98. hey stranger

Really good to see you. Keep in communication.

[Greylyn58]

42. Horse, please don't go!

We need your voice of sanity to remain with us. I know it is hard to remain here, but we have become a family of sorts and we need each other.

[Two Americas]

48. hear hear

I have seen more courage and read more brilliant insights from the people here than I have anywhere ever. Standing against this tidal wave of group think and taking a stand based on conscience and principle, and defending one another from the attacks of the mob, is truly sublime and awe-inspiring. We have become a family of sorts, in the face of much opposition and under extreme pressure and while enduring much anguish and heartbreak.

[saracat]

74. How is the beautiful doggie? Is he still doing well? he is family too!

[Greylyn58]

93. Thanks for asking

Sheridan is doing really well. He has starting eating his normal hard kibble again and is every bit as crazy as he was before his surgery. :)

[Andrea]

95. Isn't it wonderful how quickly they heal?

Please give that sweetie a big hug for me!

[Andrea]

55. BTW, take a look at the date of the OP n/t

[Two Americas]

59. lol

I was wondering when someone would notice that and was surprised to see Yael pick this thread to renew the battle. Since I just recently talked to Horse by PM this discussion seemed a little fresher to me so I jumped in. Talk about reviving an old thread!

[Andrea]

66. But if you look at the dates,

she wasn't the one to renew it. Just a coincidence, I think.

[Two Americas]

81. yes

I know. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

I was surprised, coincidence or not.

[Yael]

71. For those paying attention

This was kicked LONG before Saracat's response at 10:04 and my response to her at 10:10 (Eastern)

*sigh*

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

92. Isn't that a"personal attack"? That is NEVER tolerated .

[ClericJohnPreston]

94. Still threatening me Yael ?

Will you never learn?

Try rehabilitating your credibility after this thread. I always knew who you were. Now everyone else here does as well.......

[ChiciB1]

96. Horse... I KNOW How You Feel... For Me My Cynicism Has GROWN Rather

then lessened and I find it very difficult to "feel a part of anything" these days. But lately I've come back to this site and add a few words from time to time. I'm still on the outside looking in, and as Dylan would say... Blowing In The Wind! Those of us who remain faithful are discouraged and disgruntled AND depressed.

I watched C-Span the other day and David Sirota was on and just wrote another book. It intrigued me and from what I heard it sounds "interesting" and I want to read it. It's called "The Uprising" and may be something we should read to gain some perspective or sorts. Haven't read it yet, but perhaps it will give those of us who are feeling "out of the loop" suggestions on how to begin to create a "new reality" with a NEW PARTY!

Just a suggestion!

[Two Americas]

99. kick

Kicked and saved.