So Obama is open to school vouchers

[Horse with no Name]

And tell me how he is any different than a republican? Short answer. He is not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4686870

[SoonerShankle]

1. He's also for merit pay...

sounds a lot like Governor Schwarzenegger. I just hope that he supports a rewriting of NCLB that will help schools succeed instead of labeling them as failures...tbd

[Creideiki]

2. Ah, merit pay

So who wants to teach the struggling urban students again when you can get rewarded for teaching suburban students who test better. Not to mention that "effective" teacher label.

I left teaching after a year and a half because at long last my survival instinct kicked in.

[Critters2]

3. Which is why I supported a candidate who went to public schools.

I'll never understand why we trust the public schools to people who didn't attend them. I was so pleased that we had a candidate who'd had a public education through Law School. But alas...

Critters
proud product of 17 years of public education
(I'd have gone to a public seminary if there were such a thing!)

[SoonerShankle]

4. Unfortunately, many young teachers...

like the concept of "merit" pay because they want every dime they can get after spending over $30,000 for an education that nets them a starting salary that is below poverty level in some higher cost areas (like LA where I live).

Even the California Teachers Association acknowledges that "alternative pay schedules" are a reality in districts across the state and nation. They have even adopted parameters guiding local associations on how to handle "alternative pay schedules." The most important thing is that teachers get paid for their time, expertise, and effort-- not for test scores.

Obama likes to appeal to younger voters. I wonder how much of his vouchers and merit pay talk is his own beliefs, or his trying to cross the aisle to work with Republicans on the issues facing education or what. I do know that NEA worked diligently to stop the Pelosi/Miller rewrite of NCLB this past fall because it had provisions for merit pay and extending probationary periods in it.

Let's just make teaching even harder and more unattractive than it already is to young professionals...

btw, I've been teaching in public schools for 17 years. I attended public schools all the way through college. And yes, I too, supported this fine, publicly educated fellow. ;-)

[Horse with no Name]

5. delete. n/t

[LiveLiberally]

7. You make really good points about merit pay...

I've worked with K-12 teachers on professional development programs for years now (and I have two siblings who work in public schools in CA) and by and large the support for merit pay is very strong among them. Once teachers get their masters (which in most states earns them a pay bump) further professional development counts for little in terms of salary increases. I agree that K-12 teachers should be rewarded for their expertise, just as are other professionals in higher ed, business, etc...

As for vouchers, I am staunchly against them. In my view, paying for public education isn't a private contract between parents and the government; it is a moral responsibility of all citizens. It was when he was campaigning in WI (my state) that Obama said he was open to vouchers. He might genuinely be, but I suspect this was a case of issue pandering. Milwaukee has had a voucher program for some years that is very popular, particularly among lower income, largely African-American parents whose children have suffered in the worst schools in the state for decades. I don't think the issue of vouchers will go away until we find real solutions to improving inner city and rural schools (NCLB being a colossal failure) Until then, I can understand why desperate parents latch on to whatever program is offered if they think it will help their kids get a better education.

Thanks for posting.

**edited for typo

[jackson_dem]

6. It is scary that this substantive diference between Hill and Obama has not been covered in the msm

Of course everyone here knows how the msm selects candidates. :(

[MissDeeds]

8. Yes it is

The msm, and the candidates themselves, seem more interested in personality than issues.

[saltpoint]

9. The teachers I know who preferred Edwards to the other 7 Dems felt

that his emphasis on allowing teachers to teach instead of forcing them to teach to a test was a winning factor.

Possibly through them especially, I'm biased against vouchers and would rather see a re-hauled and comprehensive educational reform package that levels the playing field at public schools so that one (wealthy) district does not have the educational advantage over the other (poorer) one.

And it would be part of an overall emphasis on valuing teachers and the contribution they make day in and day out.

[Ninga]

10. I believe that there is an answer within his answer. I believe that there is data that

shows vouchers don't work. However, to those voters who are new to the question of vouchers, I believe that it would not be wrong to conduct further research in 2008, to show that nothing has changed. School vouchers do not work. I believe that the Senator knew the answer, before he answered.

Republicans seldom give answers to such questions by including "if"

"...Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work.

[vireo]

11. Milwaukee study shows no improvement

The private and religious voucher school program has operated mostly in secret for almost 20 years in Milwaukee and has cost taxpayers almost half a billion dollars while siphoning money from Milwaukee's public schools. Yet there is not a single piece of legitimate research saying that the program has improved student achievement.

<snip>

With so much taxpayer money funding the voucher program, why not have voucher schools follow the same rules as the public schools? Why not require every voucher school to report and publish its WKCE scores just like Milwaukee's public schools do? Why not require voucher schools to employ licensed teachers and accept students with disabilities?

Meanwhile, we know what can work to make public schools better in Milwaukee and throughout Wisconsin: individualized attention from great teachers and staff in every classroom, small class sizes, pay incentives for educators to work in high needs schools, investments in professional development, adequate and equitable school funding, local school budget flexibility and federal education funding that lives up to its promises and pays for its mandates.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=725871

[LiveLiberally]

12. Great Article on Vouchers in WI --

Thanks for posting the link. This is all too often the problem with voucher systems in WI and elsewhere. They are touted as the great solution to failing public schools & then the private schools that benefit from them aren't held to the same standards of accountability, test score reporting, etc... so that it is very difficult to ascertain whether or not there is any real benefit to student achievement. Which, of course, allows the pro-voucher movement to perpetuate the illusion that they are the great cure-all....

[saracat]

13. Pandering to the repuked again. The concept is bad even if it were effective.

Republicans often play both sides of the stree with Dems and so doess Obama.

[Ninga]

14. I have read and read and read, trying my very best to make myself informed. What I have

learned is that all politicians play games, and work both sides of the aisle. All of them.

I do not think any politician is exempt. Any.

So essentially, your response is true within the frame of your short sentence, and it is also narrow and selective.




Mother to teenage daughter

"You will be able to stay out all night if I learn you have all A's"


Mother is able to avoid an argument. Daughter learns the impossible might be possible but tied to improbable conditions.

Who is the winner in this scenario?

[saltpoint]

15. You really like that back-of-the-hand dismissal policy, saracat.

Edwards' affirmations of Clinton and Obama seem clear and strong to me.

I think I back his assessment of them as positives over yours as negatives.

[Two Americas]

16. Obama

Obama Obama Obama Obama Obama .... what was the topic again? Obama Obama Obama Obama Obama.

[saltpoint]

17. Hi, Two Americas.

On vouchers, I appreciate the notion of some parents wanting quality schooling for their daughters and sons, but of course, that is likely an impulse of any parent for any child, wouldn't you say?

I feel the playing field should be leveld -- which requires both educational reform AND economic justice to implement and carry through.

[Ninga]

18. My experience has taught me, that the topic that brings people to the table, changes, by the

time people get up and leave.

If the topic is vouchers, and the proponents are respected, then everyone can sit at the table and hash it out. If the goal is economic justice within educational reform, then vouchers can be the starting place for brainstorming, and can end up being tossed out, and given away to a different solution.

I do not support the voucher system. I support genuine, inclusive and respectful discussions toward equatable solutions.

[saltpoint]

19. Wow. How dare you interject an adult, seasoned response into

an argument!?

Outrageous.

[Ninga]

20. Here is the honest truth OC; I learned the hard way. And it started with crying

about the Vietnam War and McGovern, and the '68 riots at the Dem convention in Chicago. I did a lot of crying in those days, as I would imagine you did as well.

All I knew how to do, was argue. But i kept losing, and banging my head against a brick wall so dense, I couldn't see the other side.


Head banging about issues only gave me a head ache, and from my view, I watched as the rest of the world went on without me.

Since I liked being the center of attention, i figured out what I needed to figure out, and because i could not beat them, I joined them.

Being involved in politics is akin to being a performer, or actor. You can't rest on your laurels and think it will be enough to take the day or have people remember you.

So I learned the ugly truth, the world goes on, no matter how I chose to spend my time.


I am still on a learning curve, OC. Many times when I post on DU, people take such offense that I take a second look, and try to figure out how to do better next time.

I envy the youth of these times (anyone under 60 is a youth in my book!), and I covet their energy.

[saltpoint]

21. Yes. And thank you for that post. We all better be on that learning curve

because in the most personal sense, I wouldn't be able to keep up if others weren't on that learning curve also, and the notion that we suddenly become "complete" adults when they hand us our high school diploma just isn't very reliable.

The great men and women of history are learning new things and creating new notions long into their late decades.

Great post, Ninga.

[Ninga]

22. By the way OC, I love Bill Bradley too! I was delegate for him in 2000, and went to the

convention in LA, and was wowed by his depth on knowledge about business and the technology of the Silicon Valley.

Bradley hosted a reception for his supporters in LA. Paul Wellstone, Sheila Wellstone, and Professor Cornell West stood at his side when he spoke to the gathering.

I will not forget the knowledge and inspiration they all gave that day.

[saltpoint]

23. Ninga! I was a Bradley delegate also! Damn! And thank you for

mentioning Paul and Sheila Wellstone.

Look, I voted for Gore in 2000 in the general. But we jus worked our tails off for Bill in the primary.

I was really disappointed with the New Hampshire outcome.

I'm still pouting about it!