Just posted a great story in GD

[Greylyn58]

that I think bobbolink will appreciate. It is about how one woman decided to do something to help the homeless men she passed by every day. I found it very inventive and inspiring.

Check out the thread and keep it afloat if you will.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3101073


Thanks... :)

[Catchawave]

1. What an inspiring story !

I kick 'n' rec'd ya :D

[LiveLiberally]

2. Thanks MUCH for posting this....

Just the pick-me-up I needed. Despite all the talk of hope in this campaign, it's been in short supply here on DU (esp. GD-P). A story like this illustrates that while "underground" may be divisive and dim, there are people pounding the streets above who are making a real difference. Thanks again & hope you're feeling better. :hi:

[Catchawave]

3. Oh man....

Did you see all those pissed off people in your thread ?

Boy, I'm going to start thinking twice about helping the less fortunate in the future. :silly:

[Greylyn58]

4. Yes I did

It's made me decide not to post anything here ever again. It seems that the nastiness and ugly feelings are spreading.

I only wanted to post a story about someone trying to make a difference, even if it is only in their corner of the world. Not cause WW3.

I give up...

Maybe it is time for me to find someplace else to be.

[LiveLiberally]

5. I hope you don't leave us....

I read through the thread this morning and I don't see the comments as overwhelmingly negative. I think the story touched all of the posters, but in different ways. For some, like myself, it was an inspirational story about what one person can accomplish (and how many lives they can touch by just reaching beyond themselves.) For other people, it touched a raw nerve, and brought to the surface justifiable feelings of resentment, bitterness and pain regarding the enormous -- and growing -- gap in this country between the "haves" and "have-nots" How do we bridge that gap? For some, nothing short of revolution will work; for some, trying to do anything charitable strikes them as condescending and akin to using a spoon to move a mountain; but for some, something as simple as a jogging group is a small step which if multiplied by millions of others could begin to make a real difference.

Your thread allowed all these voices to be heard (and debated) and -- despite the negativity -- that in itself is a very positive thing.

[Catchawave]

6. I welcome good discussion, but

as a lifetime "bleeding heart liberal" I've never been attacked for recognizing a good samaritan effort.

Sure, it's "a bandaid", but excuse me for caring...lol. There's a lot of anger and blame in the Poverty forum too, so that's no help.

Must I become homeless to truly understand the "problem" ?

[LiveLiberally]

7. As a fellow "bleeding heart liberal"

I can completely relate to your point of view. But speaking personally, I'm coming to realize that 7 years of an elitist failed presidency (and a complicit or -- post 2006 -- impotent Congress) has generated enormous anger that is often displaced. I'm not excusing it, or agreeing with it, but I am trying not to reject it out-of-hand. If I do, I fear that bridging the divide will become even more difficult.

[Catchawave]

8. Communities and Churches do want to help

but at what point do you force someone to be responsible for their own self ? The lady in Grey's article made a difference in "those" lives she touched, the effort should be celebrated, not spat upon.

I choose to be inspired, not dragged down by a bunch of Debbie Downers. But's it's nice to know I can stop donating food and clothing to the homeless because it's making their problems worse. Geesh.

[bobbolink]

9. Debbie Downer reporting here.

I realize it's hard to rethink some positions you have held for a long time.

But, pouting and "withholding" support is a bit... well, not exactly mature, do you think?

If you find it hard to accept that maybe it's time to adjust some of your positions, maybe you might then realize that it's also just as hard for conservatives when we criticize THEM.

This gives you a chance to empathize with how they might be feeling.

Actually, the reactionary response to our words isn't unlike what the Civil Rights workers got a few decades ago.

Just a bit of food for pondering.

[dajoki]

10. That would be a shame...

if some words in a forum caused you to stop donating food and clothing to the homeless. I don't know you, but I believe that you will re-think that option.

And as for the "Debbie Downers" you mention, I really don't know what that means, could it be people who you disagree with? Just asking. Also, how do you "force" people to do something when they have neither the options nor means that many of us enjoy?

[varelse]

11. If it's not being pushed as a viable alternative to a larger-scale solution

then charity in and of itself does good rather than harm. The problem arises when a painkiller and bed rest is presented as somehow being equivalent to heart surgery. That is the harm I see done by making this heart-warming human interest story into national news, while the root causes of serious problems that require major political and social changes go unaddressed in the mainstream media.

A million aspirins and all the bed rest in the world do not equal triple bypass surgery... and the wrong prescription leads to denial and eventually to death. This principle applies to our nation just as it would to an individual organism... and also I do not believe that the Mainstream Media is qualified to prescribe cures, even indirectly, as it appears they've done here.

just sayin'

Peace

Edit... oops, I meant to reply on the other thread, sorry about that :blush:

[Two Americas]

16. no one spat on anything

What some of us did was to take that story and use it to start some very powerful discussions. No one was attacked, and if people chose to take it personally and be offended that is unfortunate, but what would you have us do?

I find the discussions that were started by that post the most inspiring I have seen in decades.

[bobbolink]

17. It's interesting that calling us jerks and Debbie Downers doesn't count as

being "spat" upon.

:shrug:

[Two Americas]

20. one problem

Speaking for myself, I am not angry and not attacking anyone. I think people are hearing it that way, but I am certain that it is not the way they are hearing it.

I am interested in bridging the divide and open to suggestions. How can we do what we feel so strongly that we need to do - reassess the approach to social problems that modern liberalism takes, and return the left and the party to its traditional roots, without offending some people and hurting their feelings?

[Two Americas]

12. Edwardians...

Those, including myself, who expressed reservations about private charity models being celebrated were never disrespectful, angry, or rude, and made no personal attacks on anyone. It is not fair or accurate to characterize those with whom you happen to disagree as being "negative."

Perhaps that which makes you feel good, does not make others feel good. Yet the others did not make these sorts of accusations against you, and patiently explained their point of view.

I think that if we are going to post articles about poverty, then we are going to have discussions about poverty and people should feel free to express their opinions, and we need to be tolerant and considerate of those with whom we do not agree.

"Did you see all those pissed off people" is just not good, catch. You are placing me in a mob, which is not fair, calling me "pissed off" which is not true, and asking people to pre-judge what I said before they have had a chance to read it for themselves.

[Catchawave]

15. TA, I help many deserving non-profits

....not because it makes me feeeeeeeeel goooooood , but because I can. I don't give money, I give time and "stuff" I don't need, like clothes and furniture. I give food to food banks and animal shelters.

If this topic has caused a "class war", then I want no part of it. Afterall, I'm in the "muddleclass" and not qualified to comment any more :(

[Two Americas]

19. so do I

I have done thousands hours of hands on work in the hardest situations over 35 years, deserving or not. Nothing wrong with feeling good about that, and I do. I feel even better, though, about the new and expanding awareness and understanding that I now see for the first time in decades. That is truly cause for celebration. It seems to be inescapable that some are getting hurt feelings about that, and I regret that and think it is unfortunate. However, the very opinions that are hurting people's feelings are the only ones that will break through the fog, and without breaking through that fog we would not be making such spectacular progress, we would not be bringing more and more people into the discussion, and we would not be seeing the spectacular insights and ideas we are seeing now. It is like the first rain after a long, long, drought.

Maybe "feel good" is the wrong wording, and it is not my intention to hurt your feelings - "feel inspired," and resent those whom you see as trying to diminish that experience for you?

No one accused you of being "muddle class" and you can choose or not to identify with the "muddle class" - which means holding and expressing gentrified opinions and attitudes. People are free to disagree with those attitudes and opinions - that is discussion - and they are not attacking you personally if they criticize opinions and attitudes. You have felt free to call names and characterize other people in pejorative ways when they disagree with you.

But we cannot ask people to stop expressing opinions merely because they make us feel uncomfortable, can we?

[dajoki]

13. Just a question...

to help me understand your point. Were you, at any time in your life, "less fortunate"? Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just curious. Poverty has become a very devisive issue and there are many points of view, much of which depend on your own life's journey.

[Catchawave]

18. Depends on the meaning of "less fortunate"....

I'm totally clueless why this is about how much money one makes, and not about choices one makes. I sure don't have to be a vegetarian to support animal rights, a lesbian to support equal rights marriage, or an African-American to appreciate MLK. :shrug:

Though I did marry a mill worker's son who did very well in his career choice too :D

[Two Americas]

21. Elizabeth....

Is that you? ;)

If it is about "choices" rather than money, then it is politically right wing as opposed to politically left wing. Can you see that? Politics, and especially left wing politics, is about power and economics, not about personal choices. Personal choices is the mantra of libertarianism.

Catchawave, I hate fighting with you and a few of the other Edwardians. You are a good person, and there need not be this fighting. How do we discuss this subject, and how do we express our views?

In the recent bitter fights, I have not called for the elimination of your viewpoint from the discussion, I have fought to have a different viewpoint included. There is room for both. But if expressing a different point of view is going to be seen as an attack on people, what can we do about that?

[Catchawave]

22. Actually, Elizabeth and I are both military brats.....

and I married the millworker's son too. It's great karma isn't it :hug:

What laws need to be changed? Let me help. Where's the activism? And, no, I'm not sending a check :P

[Two Americas]

24. it is distressing

Every odd niche interest is effectively using the Internet, except the political left. It is a glaring and remarkable phenomenon. There is so little presence online for serious traditional left wing activism. It is a function of what sorts of causes appeal to those with disposable income, and which causes do not - which is the privatized free market problem with liberalism that I rail about. Rather than those most in need being served, those who wish to help are served in a "supply and demand" free market approach. Sooner or later, the success of a non-profit organization is measured by its success at flattering and comforting those donating money rather than those in need. Many non-profits see their mission as "education" - which means educating the public as to their need for funds so they can "educate" people some more and raise more funds.

I am putting together some resources for you, and I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion.

[dajoki]

23. I never mentioned "money"...

nor does how much you make matter to me, except to say that I truly hope you are doing well or even better than well. And even though I am a man, I am extremely sensitive to women's rights. That may be because I have been surrounded by women my entire life (mother, grandmother, wife, two daughters). Or it just may be a choice I made.

Even though I had/have all these women in my life my main role model and my hero to this day is my grandfather. He was a man who struggled to support his parents and 11 siblings when he went to work in the coal mines at age 12. He got married and raised his own family, still working in the mines, but when he finally retired from the coal mines he and my grandmother started their own bakery business. This is where I learned what RESPECT for EVERY human being is, he gave more away to poor people, charities, churches, etc., than he ever sold, all the while doing it without making anybody feel less of themselves. He did it with such gentleness, respect and caring, he always told me that they needed it more than we did, but he never made anyone feel that their "business" was not appreciated. I always felt that this man and his sixth grade education was probably the smartest man I will ever know.

That is what I meant about our own life's journey, it has nothing to do with money or choices. People with the resources have the option of choices, but people who are barely existing do not have the luxury of choices, which many of us take for granted. And they can't win no matter what they do, because society and government will always say that they made the wrong choices or they wouldn't be poor or homeless, so they tell them to "fix" themselves even though, in most situations, that so-called choice was already made for them by somebody else.

[benny05]

14. It was a good story

But certain folks in which you named will never appreciate it, Greylyn. You are better off hanging at EENR in some instances.