As a purely hypothetical excercise,who would be willing to risk

[PhuLoi]

their own well being to cast a curse on certain undesirables?

[frictionlessO]

1. I've heard some history that in WW2 there were ultimate sacrifices

made in Britain. A bit gruesome by our standards today, but if you taking in the law of return... well its understandable.

As for casting the curse, well there be all kinds of technicalities (sp?) with that. Starting with which path(s) you'd be drawing from.
Defineing your undesirables is another.

I know for a fact that many groups and covens and solitaires did what they could over the past elections, but I heard of several coven splits because of disagreement over the use of circle time for such things. We must remember not all pagans are liberal/democratic. Ive met more than a few staunch conservative pagans, dont ask me how they got to that path but theyre on it.

just my half penny worth...

[PhuLoi]

2. Thank you for you intelligent response. Specifics would best be

discussed privately. Doubtless Ashcroft's army would be aknocking at our doors should we be indiscreet. As a solitary that leans by predisposition to Celtic paganism there are a few paths to follow that do not require my sharing circle time. Perhaps remote convening might be possible.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

13. yes, remote covening is the solution, for many are solitary

[Is It Fascism Yet]

12. Go skyclad to show that you are really free

are these conservative pagans you know really free? wow, I have never met a conservative pagan, the old religion demands freedom. Are you sure they are not spies?

[frictionlessO]

17. funny enough I have joked with a few of them, being feds or spies

Wont catch me doing it now though, and I know for a fact that there are feds who are pagan as well. Ive met them at festivals!! No joke. hehehe

Like I said I dont know how they got on this kinda path but they are on it, so there you go. Hey it does take all kinds, ya know. Besides these are probably the kind of people who'll help us escape from the "Freedom Re-Education Centers" when we get locked up!!:tinfoilhat: ;)

[yardwork]

3. I am opposed to cursing

I'm not interested in going down that dark path. Freepers and their like are filled with hatred. Their "prayers" are filled with destructive thoughts and pleas that their enemies be destroyed. That's no way to live.

It's much better, imo, to ask for positive blessings. Ask that good prevail.

[Streetdoc270]

4. well put yardwork!

It only leadsa to ill for yourself. I was always taught that you wish good fortune, even for your enemies you wish that they find enlightment and betterment so that they can learn to live in peace and harmony with all.

[truth2power]

29. I have a question, then...

Why don't the freepers prayers for the destruction of their enemies come back on them. It seems the more hatred they sow, the more they prosper. Can you explain that?

I wouldn't mess with black magick, because I believe it works; to your own detriment if you don't know what you are doing.

[LisaLynne]

32. Well, the unsatisfying answer for me is that ...

it does actually come back on them. We just usually don't get to see it. I think a lot of "karma" or whatever term you prefer doesn't work itself out in one lifetime, but over several incarnations (and probably between incarnations, too). It's a long-term sort of deal.

Yes, they seem to be prospering in this lifetime. Look at George W. This man is probably one of the most corrupt (or, more generously, less developed) souls ever to show up in public life. He seems to have everything going for him -- wealth, position, power, etc -- while he's causing the deaths of countless people and his policies are ravaging our world, doing untold damage. However, we might not get to see his true 'downfall' or the point at which he has to deal with all this negative energy he's sending out. I have no doubt within myself that he will, indeed, have to deal with it eventually and I would NOT want to be in his shoes when he does (I have plenty of my own stuff to deal with -- not saying I don't). But, this might get played out over several hard, lesson-intensive incarnations. And even if we're around, we won't really know it's him. You know?

So, that was my rambling way of trying to explain how I see it.

[yardwork]

36. They aren't prospering according to my definition, as far as I know

My definition of prosperity is to live a life of happiness and contentment. Material possessions, money, and power are irrelevant past the point of basic needs with a few extras tossed in for fun and aesthetic enjoyment.

Looking at shrub's life, I see no signs of what I call prosperity. He doesn't look happy or content. I suspect his marriage is a sham. He says nasty things about his daughters. Shrub appears to have unaddressed substance abuse issues and other health problems. He lies all the time - no integrity. He promotes violence, fear, and bigotry. His family apparently has no aesthetic taste. People speak of visiting the Bush household and finding no books, no artwork, no appreciation of beautiful or interesting things.

Not prosperous at all by my definition. I see similar pathologies with other well-known right-wingers. They have miserable personal lives, serial failed marriages, personal screw-ups. No integrity. No understanding of what they are missing, even.

On the whole, they appear to live in a dark miserable place alone with their cold useless gold.

[Ivan Sputnik]

5. I wouldn't. Rather than casting a curse

why not work some magick to ensure the good fortune of these undesirables' opponents? What goes around comes around.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. my train of thought...derailed!

I am a witch. I tend to follow the path of light, but I am willing to spin a curse, and I have. I understand why others will not do this, and that is fine. However, it is my personal belief you cannot be a complete witch without knowledge of both paths and a willingness to utilize both. To me, it is about balance. You have to have darkness to appreciate light and vise versa. The trick is to know where to cross the line. Dark magick is easy and fast, therefore, very tempting! There is so much evil in the world, I often avoid the dark path because there is no need for me to contribute to it.

That said, there are creative ways around curses. They teeter on grey magicks. They are neither dark nor light, they are neutral like nature. All magick is really grey at first. It is how it is used that changes the path.

In regards to the election, I didn't cast any spells, simply prayed. Perhaps, it is time to move past prayer. A spell I would use would be to make known the hidden dealings of those who betray the Earth, her animals, and those who cheated. I would ask the veil of deceit to become like a mirror and reflect back their mis-dealings and create illusions that the dealings are becoming unraveled. When people feel their lies are getting exposed, they become sloppy and forget which lies they told and the house of cards falls. This is grey, but borders on dark because it causes confusion, misleads, and can lead to chaos. However, if you didn't mislead you have nothing to fear, the greater the lie the greater the illusion of unraveling.

The one spell I have used that worked very well. One person, it worked with in two days, another, it took a month, and the last person, it was four months. I call it my Karma spell. It accelerates the person's Karma in this life and past ones, to unleash a massive dose of Karma at one time. Although this includes good Karma as well, which will offset some bad, if the person has recently done bad or evil, that is the Karma attracted. The persons I cast this spell against hurt my family! I talk tough, but usually will let people shit all over me...I will NOT allow that to happen to my family! You hurt them, you will piss off a wicked witch and no fucking house dropping on me will stop me!

Usually, I am just a big sweetie! :)

Brightest Blessings!

[NamVetsWeeLass]

7. OOOOH Behind, sort of Like mirror shielding....

BRILLIANT! Just Brilliant. Not one or the other, but definately GREY. Hmmm has potential... really.

[Jamastiene]

39. What do you think

about love spells? Are you willing to cast those? If so, can I ask you a question (pm you about it, I mean)?

[toddaa]

8. Countering the Manichaean Worldview

It seems that neopaganism hasn't completely broken free of the good/evil duality that plagues the monotheists. While the Wiccan Rede is a noble guide, I suspect that not enough philosophical extrapolation within pagan circles has occurred to find its limits.

[frictionlessO]

9. Todd Im digging you more and more with each of your posts do

you do Nisargadatta?

Are you dead? (its a joke!)

dualities exist within the framework of the dream called reality. thus they are not existing from without it... or some such thingy.

:+ :grouphug: :hi:

[Is It Fascism Yet]

11. nice dreamsite

http://www.dreamviews.com/

[toddaa]

16. Dream or reality

They are really both equal. It's not a question of knowing which is which, but recognizing the transformation. That's really all that matters.

Nisargadatta? No, sorry.

[Matariki]

31. i agree with you completely

i have heard from a couple 3rd degree priestesses that the Wiccan Rede is made up to keep the folks in the lower degrees in line. Coincidently, i've heard similar things from a catholic priest, about what is taught in seminary compared to what is taught to the 'masses'. Kind of manipulative and elitist in my opinion.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

10. I considered this

Remembering the witches of the Isle of Mann, and how they prevented Hitler from crossing the channel, by working the weather, I considered that it is really time to take self defense to another level. But, while considering it I came to realize that a hex is not necessary and exposes my familiers to danger of slapback. It's really overkill. How about we just do a binding? How about conjuring some of the ghosts of the humans he has murdered, and encouraging a little haunting? Wouldn't it be better if we picked a moment and all worked on this together?

[Lizzie Borden]

25. A bunch from the New Forest Coven got together

and raised power in order to keep Hitler from invading England. Strange, that night, the fog was so heavy, nothing could land.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

14. Hey folks, all magick is black magick. Binding is the logical answer.

except conversation with the holy spirit. So, let's not be so fussy. We all engage in black magic, with every love spell, beauty spell, spell for prosperity, every spell. That's okay, don't be shy. I so agree with Z Budapest's assesment, "A witch who cannot hex cannot heal" But to be sure, the slap back would be substantial, and would endanger our familiers and children as well as ourselves. But there is no need to be so heavy handing! As many have said, we can help goodness prevail. A binding exercise on those who abuse power would take care of the rest.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. have to disagree on a point

I don't feel all magick is black. In my opinion, all magick is grey, or neutral. It doesn't take a "path" until it is used, therefore, the practitioner determines the "color," so to speak. Like you, I also agree that a "witch who can not hex cannot heal." A witch, well, I will only speak for me, should be like nature, both kind and cruel. The difference is that we can pick when we are cruel, most of the time.

I will say this though. Binding (if done on another without permission) is usually considered dark magick because it restricts a person's will. Therefore, by definition, it doesn't follow the "harm none" statement in Wicca.

Just my two shekels!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

19. Yes, well, you are

entitled to your opinion, but you disagree with not just with me on this point, but with Alister Crowley as well, for it was he I quoted when I said, "All magick is black magick except conversation with the greater self"

[Behind the Aegis]

22. that explains it!

I can see that being a Crowley quote. I had never heard him say that, but I have also never read much of his works. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

15. I think these "undesirables" have mojos of their own

working on it.

[robbedvoter]

20. "May the harm you did to others be visited upon you" so chanted woodoo

presteses in full regalia around an effigy of W at the precise moment of his coronation in 2001 - right in front of the Supreme Court.
It was an amazing ceremony.

[hippiechick]

21. Nope. Tried it once. Came back to nearly ruin my life.

I suppose the only good lesson I learned from it is that Spirit has her way of handling things in her time, and that I shouldn't deign to know better than she does, or try to force matters because of my own impatience.


:hippie:

[Is It Fascism Yet]

23. Yeah, you're right, a hex is very heavy handed

and even if deserved the practitioner will get a good slap. I tried it once too and my familier died. But, there are other magical remedies besides cursing, I recommend we bind the "undesirable one" from doing further harm. Let's just tie the bastard's hands. Or, how about a banishing?

[Cerridwen]

24. Naw, wouldn't go there.

"paying" for something across lifetimes is a real bummer.

I am however doing as much consciousness raising of my own happy Self, along with other work, to do my wee bit to contribute to a critical mass of consciousness world-wide.

[davidinalameda]

26. possibly

I have really bad karma at times so I know that if I did something like this, I would get a good sized chunk taked out of my behind

but I do want to comment on one of the posts about magic being gray--that's always been my belief and understanding--whether something is "black" or "white" (really HATE those terms) depends on the intent of the person casting the spell

a gun in itself is not good nor evil--it depends on the person holding it and who its pointed at

[davsand]

27. Seek justice.

I understand that many are reluctant to venture into anything resembling hex work. As with all paths, it is an individual choice. I have found, that for me, there are times when I've accomplished much more by seeking justice.

I fully agree that the arts are essentially neutral--it is only intent that defines them. Further, I feel that the role of "witch" really has modified over time. In days of old, the village witch was called on to cast spells that were both protective as well as hexes. It really seems a recent view to NOT enact both the magic of day AND night.

I would counsel all to do a BIG self examination of your motives before you walk into a circle for this type of work, but it can do some pretty remarkable stuff if you focus and if you know what you seek.

Frankly, (and I am NOT saying this is the only way!) if I was to set out to do something, I'd think long and hard about the killed and injured. I'd think long and hard about the pain and sorrow brought down by specific actions, and I'd seriously work for justice for all who were wronged. I'd work for the idea that the one responsible for all that pain and sadness see immediate justice if it is due...

YMMV.


Laura

[frictionlessO]

28. well balanced view from the gray area! I think you're spot on....nt

[amazona]

30. yeah I'm old

I'm willing. Unfortunately, lack of talent might be a problem. In fact, I might as well confess, I already tried it. Didn't work, and no rebound back to me either. (A great year personally for me despite my low income.) I think if you curse for the right reasons -- self defense and defense of the helpless being right reason for action -- then there is no risk of rebound. Who would dare tell Marie Laveau that she was wrong to curse an evil slave-owner?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[NickiWitch]

33. My own experience with the dark side

When I first started down this path almost 10 years ago, I wanted to read anything I could get my hands on. I went to my mentors house and looked through his books and found one that caught my eye.

It was a book of magick based on Hecate. I was warned that I was too fresh to get into that. Me being the curious woman I am, thought I would just give it a glance. I found myself reading it and not being able to put it down. I read the incantations aloud and I believe that was my undoing.

I was plagued by bugs for 3 months solid. I live in San Diego, CA. We're not known for our large or exotic bugs. The things were about 3 inches long and as thick as a sharpie pen. They were a deep dark red color and they looked like centipedes. I had never seen any near our apartment and none of my neighbors had ever seen them before. I'd find them dead in the middle of the floor or alive crawling on the carpet.

After telling my friend about the bugs he said I better give Hecate some attention, because she was trying to tell me something.

I did my usual "Hi! How ya doin'? Thanks for everything you've done for me." circles and the bugs stopped coming.

The point of my too long story is that the book I was reading from had *several* spells that were not so kind.

From then on, I decided it was best to "Harm none, do what ye will".

Peace!!

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Greek witch

I follow the Greek path and I have never found such a book. Do you remember the name? I am doubting the validity that it exists, I simply have never seen one like that. As a matter of fact, I have a VERY difficult time finding anything on Hecate. I use all types of books, including ones like this, to piece together ancient Greek magick. If you can remember the name, that would be much appreciated!

Brightest Blessings!

[NickiWitch]

35. I just emailed my friend....

because I honestly can't remember the name myself. If I remember right, it was a small paperback and cover was either red, orange or yellow.

As soon as he responds, I'll post the info for you.

Peace!

[NickiWitch]

37. Sorry...

My info is slightly off. Another friend I spoke to (because my other friend who actually owns it hasn't replied to my email yet) informed me that he thought it was the Crone's book of spells.

The chants were definitely for Hecate however.

Peace!

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Thanks for the update

I don't have that book. Thanks for the info. And, yes, one should be VERY careful when working with Hekate, same needs to be said of Kali!!!!

[Jamastiene]

40. I have a similar question.

What about someone who loves someone else so much that they would take all that person's pain on themselves to make the other person feel better? Not a curse, but an emotional pain relieving type spell for another that you care about.

[Why Syzygy]

41. You might be

robbing them of the lessons they need to learn and the path they need to take. Suffering is meant to be honored. A better solution would be to talk with them about embracing the pain. That will transform the person.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. It really depends

I don't do things that are directly harmful, more along the lines of doing a working that calls for Justice to be done or the Truth about the person in question to be revealed for all to see. Not harmful per se and I know my conscience and my Gods are ok with it so no issues there but really akin to pointing a bloodhound at a dump site. You aren't hurting them, you are just moving things along faster that will happen sooner or later and hopefully before they cause more trouble.

That and not sure if this is entirely on topic I have no issues with doing something to seek victory or aid in a coming confrontation, I only do so rarely but there's nothing wrong with it.