Ok, since we are of like mind here I have a question

[NamVetsWeeLass]

Did anyone else feel that with the **Coughcoughcough** Re Election of the Prince of Chimps that they may have to find a broom closet to hide in? In one of my letters to a group of fiesty witches I belong to I said I felt like the Burning times were once again upon us. Am I just being Paranoid?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. I've had some paranoid thoughts

about this sort of thing. No telling what these wackos will do next. I imagine any actual persecution will be informal and ad hoc rather than official. Probly a good idea not to wear any obvious pentagrams, Thor's hammers, etc. in public, especiaoly out to bars or something.

[Love Bug]

2. There was a front page article about that on WitchVox last week

I don't think you're the only one who is a little freaked out about the re-election (sic) since Georgie is already on record as stating "I don't think Witchcraft is a real religion" (in spite of what the IRS thinks).

[yardwork]

3. I've been thinking about this a lot, too

With my usual stupendous timing, I became a conscious Pagan just a few months ago. After the election a friend sent me an email noting the impact of the Christian right-wing on the election. He suggested - teasingly - that we all might want to be more vocal in our Christianity. I responded "Looks like I picked the wrong year to come out as a Pagan."

Being very liberal and therefore tolerant, he responded very positively. The exchange made me feel good, though, because I realized that I need to be open about my spiritual path when it is safe and wise to do so.

While balancing the need to protect ourselves and our families from bigoted attacks, I think it's also important for us to let our friends and family know who we are, in order to battle the negative myths about Paganism and Wicca.

Sorry for this lengthy response. You know us newbies - we're just so enthusiastic and we have so much to say!

[kimchi]

4. I can certainly understand your concern.

I've been out of the broom closet for 14 years; I'm not going back in now. Personally, I feel the need to be even MORE open and in-your-face. I refuse to let fake Christians scare me into silence.

I just try not to think of what could happen with Mr. "Wicca isn't a real religion" in the WH. I am lucky to live in a very liberal city; there are 2 of us on our small street, and most of the neighbors really don't care, and would more than likely stick up for us. At the present time I am more concerned for the GLBT crew. If they are rounded up; we will probably be next.

If I lived in Texas I'd probably be much more concerned. And, just because you are paranoid; it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

[Behind the Aegis]

9. the roundup

If they start the roundup, they will get a 2-for-1 deal with me! Gay and pagan can be a lethal mix in Oklahoma. Look at the number of anti-gay things that come from this state. There is also a great fear of witches and witchcraft here. There was something in Tulsa not long ago about a girl getting suspended for wearing a pentagram to school! This part of the country is a cultural black hole. That is to say, it is at least a decade behind the times, if not more!

[Desertrose]

5. I think its a real concern to anyone who isn't a rw-Xtian

It does feel like the buring times may be coming and it won't just be for pagans and witches this time...it'll be for ANYONE who doesn't conform to the far right thoughtform.

hooo damn...I could be in big trouble :evilgrin:

seriously...we can't let this happen...just not sure how to stop it.....

blessings
DR

[Beaverhausen]

6. I don't really out myself to anyone but those I trust anyway

But yes, I think we do need to be a bit on the wary side.

Did you see the letter from the Bob Jones University president to Bush? Paganism is what he mention we can now "rid the country of."

I will say I have worn my pentagram pendant more often since the election just for spite.

[buckettgirl]

7. I don't disagree...

To be out of the broomcloset can bring discrimination and violence from those who chose not to be open-minded. Now, it will only get worse. If the fundies run the country, they'll certainly condemn us as devils. :evilfrown:

[toddaa]

8. Banding together

Those of us in "alternative" religions* need to get involved with local interfaith religious organizations. The problem that a lot of us face is that we practice our beliefs without the oversight of a larger organization. Wiccans are becoming more organized and that's great, but there are many of us who don't belong to any "official" organization. Still, we need to get our voices heard. Local community interfaith councils can go along way in making our lives tolerable. They won't necessarily defeat the fundamentalists drive to turn this country into a theocracy, but at the grassroots level, we can at least find strength in numbers.

* - Hands down, the dumbest moniker for various our spiritual beliefs. For the life of me, I cannot fathom how the 2500+ year old philosophy of Taoism that is the underpinning for most East Asian culture is lumped into "new age" thinking. Same goes for Western pagans.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. it is scary now, more than 4 years ago

I am still shocked that people would elect an idiot who failed to produce one net job, made us reviled around the world, failed to fund his own damn programs, and is a huge hypocrite!

Part of the problem with the pagan community, is its diversity. It sounds odd to say that diversity would be a problem, but because pagans come in so many forms and places of thought, it is difficult for us to find common ground sometimes. I am not Wiccan, but because I am pagan, I am always thought to be Wiccan, especially since I identify as a witch. I guess the real problem is that education is not very good when it comes to paganism. People (including other pagans) really don't know what it is all about and terms get used inappropriately and it just adds to the confusion.

I hope that pagans will find a voice, come out, as it were, and perhaps, get our own lobby force! We need to be as strong as our enemies, and that strength comes from togetherness and wisdom!

Brightest Blessings!

[toddaa]

11. Miscellaneous Other United

Maybe what we should do is form an organization that ties together all of our tiny little enclaves into something with a bit more clout. The atheists and agnostics are beginning to do just that and are becoming a real thorn in the side of the establishment. It's easy to ignore a group of people that numbers less than 2% of the population. When the numbers start increasing and become more visible, local communities have to deal with us. What happened on Nov. 2nd was a national anomoly. In local communities, I sense that things are changing for the better. Maybe not in the hardcore red counties, but blue counties in red states are becoming more tolerable. The key is not to slink back into the closet.

I'm really impressed with what Witchvox has done for the Wiccan community, but I'm not a Wiccan and so can only admire them from afar. What we really need is a nature based community that can tie together all of us under one banner.

All this activism, however, should be tempered with a yielding attitude. As a Taoist, I am always mindful of Lao Tzu's teachings that the softest thing in the universe always overcomes the hardest. Fundamentalism is a hard and unbending system. In the short term, it looks impenetrable. But like the rock in the river, it will slowly grind away to the unrelenting force of the soft water penetrating its tiny cracks and fissures.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. A national coven, of sorts

I think it would be very interesting to start a group that brought in all types of "non-traditional" spiritual beliefs. Not just bring people together for camaraderie, but for political action. I like using the teaching of Lao Tzu, but we shouldn't be "too" gentle. :)

I just don't know how to start something like that. Perhaps a DU poll of the pagans here and get an idea of what they would look for in a national group.

Very good idea!

[PhuLoi]

12. I would not dismiss that feeling.

I was joking with my wife that we should start a gun club so history would not repeat itself. The Pagan Rifle Association maybe with a logo bearing a witch flying on a rifle.

[Chovexani]

13. I'm scared shitless

I have been out of the broom closet for close to 8 years now (the coming out was quite painful as well), and I am scared shitless.

This is not a good time to be a queer Pagan woman in America. I feel like I'm slowly being put in the crosshairs...but I don't know if it's intuition or just paranoia.

Then again, you know they say just because you're paranoid does not mean "they" aren't out to get you!

I just feel like I'm living in the damn Matrix, actually.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

14. I wanted to thank you all for your thoughts

I just got off the phone with my friend, Who is a Witch, and is also gay. (double trouble, LOL) We always talk of how impressed he is with me being the "subversive" I am. He sees what I am doing with being a loudmouth about this election as me sticking up for him. I couldn't ask for a better friend, I really couldn't. I am in part sticking up for him, I am also sticking up for Us. I am sticking up for the Country that I do love, although right now it is clouded heavily and Murky, there will be clear days again. He is right, I am in part doing this for him, he needs health coverage, but his SO's insurance won't cover him. He has heart disease and about checked out on me this summer. Well, I wasn't about to let that happen, and although I live HOURS away, I was sending him every bit of energy I had to spare. Combine that with me working 75 hours a week then and you have the recipe for the walking disaster that I became. After his cardiac stenting, I sent him EVERYTHING I could, I was spent. I slept for like 15 hours, even my husband who is oblivious to me looking any different when I do, stated that I looked like a train wreck.

I guess part of this is fueled by fear. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to hide what we are, or what we believe. But let's face it folks, this isn't a perfect world. SO, I will cling to what beliefs I have, and I will hope for a better day in the future.

Peace out other tree huggers and the like. Brightest Blessings.

[robbedvoter]

15. If you think you are paranoid, read this:

Congratulatory letter to President George W. Bush from Dr. Bob Jones III
November 3, 2004
http://www.bju.edu/letter
President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

The media tells us that you have received the largest number of popular votes of any president in America's history. Congratulations!

In your re-election, God has graciously granted America—though she doesn't deserve it—a reprieve from the agenda of paganism

[LibertyLover]

16. The new burning times

Unfortunately, I don't think you are being all that paranoid. I live in Maryland and work in DC, both fairly liberal areas of the country with a lot of pagan groups, both "out" and covert. I did my training and ordination with one of the public ones and was open about my spirituality with my family and friends and at work. I had no problems except for some odd looks when I requested annual leave for some of the sabbats.

But about 3 years ago my husband and I started adoption procedures and I went back in the closet really quickly. We've had our daughter for about a year now and I'm still in the closet - both for her sake and because of the very conservative religious groups that are now running things. I'm afraid that if someone found out I was pagan that we could loose our daughter and that's a chance I don't want to take. I do fear that things are going to get worse before they get better.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

18. First, Welcome to DU....

I know what you are saying about going back to the Closet for your adoption and staying there for the sake of the Child. I have heard stories here in WV that couples have lost their kids for years because they were Wiccan. (They did get the kid back after either 3 or 4 years.) Now, Here I stand, I am NOT A Wiccan, I am a Witch, Yes, there is a difference. Witch has even nastier connotations to the unenlightened ones. "Didn't we drop a house on your sister?" Yeah, sure that is what we are all about. Ruby slippers, Little dogs and some spaced out concussion-suffering girl in Gingham.... YEP sign me right up. In all honesty, one of the places I worked took my "quirk" very well. When my girl was born one of my friends was the first to post to her picture site up on the 'net. She has both "Witch" and "Dragon" in her screen name... The very religious Med Records lady ran it off and put it up on the wall at my Nurse's Station--complete with my Girlfriend's post. All of my Residents that were alert saw it, their families, my co workers... I did get a few questions about it, But all in all, they did well with it. Mainly they wanted to know what her name means, and where on earth I got it. "Ummm People, it is a Fleetwood Mac song too, ya know..." That would hold them for a while. (And, no I really didn't name her Rhiannon after the Horse Goddess, I named her in Honour of the Great Queen. One of her Distinctions is that She is an Otherworld or Death Goddess, a bringer of Dreams and a Moon Deity. Yes, she is still symbolized by a White horse.) That place was the best about it. I got fired from one job because of it, although they denied it. I didn't mess with taking it to the ACLU because of the fear of losing the Baby. Did I have a Case? Yep. Do I care now? No, I have my girl that is what matters. More so than a $14.00 an hour Job with lousy hours and so brutally understaffed it was insane.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. I think they will first turn on their own

those who aren't conservative, "Christian" enough. This is what happened in 1692 in Salem MA. BTW, I'm a direct descendant of one of the women who was condemned as a witch there and who died in the Salem jail.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Venom

I agree they will turn on their own, we are already seeing that! But, I think this group has enough hate and venom to attack multiple groups. Right now, they are busying attacking gays. Being gay, I read many a gay website and the number of attacks on us is rising at an alarming rate across the country. Many things aren't even making the national news! :grr: Pagans won't be far behind. The fundies see us as a danger, the "mainstream" think our numbers are too low to matter or that we really "aren't" pagans! Dangerous times are afoot!

[kimchi]

21. I seriously want to place a giant Star of David on my bay window.

Or a triangle, or a rainbow, or any other symbol that would let everyone know I will be speaking up when they come for my brothers and sisters.

Probably my unthinking, activists college self coming back to me. Probably not smart, either. I just really feel like making a statement.

[Cerridwen]

22. My first thought is "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean

they aren't after me."

The "Burning Times" haven't ever really left us.

Its just that during these last 20 years, instead of being burned at the stake we lost jobs, friends, family, children, we have been ridiculed, we have been harassed on the job or had our homes vandalized, our children have been bullied and beaten and we have been "demonized" and marginalized from the "mainstream."

Except, instead of calling us Witch we are instead labeled feminazi, dyke, lesbo, faggot, unfit mother or father, undesirable employee, lazy, liberal, anti/un-xtian, trouble maker, satan worshiper, anti/un-american, woo woo, new age goofy, terrorist, or some other "acceptable" label.

There was a short time during which it was okay to wear a pentacle or dress as per stereotype and even buy and sell the trappings of "the occult." I think that time may have ended and we'll see enforced xtianization of the U.S. re-surge in a most horrific manner. And I think it will backfire on "them" in an almost equally horrific manner; though it may take some time.

I think "they" will discover that as long as there is money to be made from "us" "goofy" new agey types, "their" concerns with our souls, or theirs, will NOT be of concern to capitalist american. "They" have some hard lessons about corporatism and capitalism coming "their" way which will, I believe, cause them more cognitive dissonance than "they're" ready to handle.

But that's just my opinion and your mileage may vary. :-)

And, for those interested, here is a link to another perspective about what is happening on planet earth at this time.
http://www.whatsuponplanetearth.com/Archives%202004/November.8.2004.htm

[Is It Fascism Yet]

23. They have taken away the children of an Arizona woman because she is pagan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=179&mesg_id=278&page=

[toddaa]

24. Source?

Forgive me for being skeptical, but family law being the mess that it is, I'd like see an actual news source for this.

[CarbonDate]

25. I'm thinking about getting an AR-15....

...civilian model of the M-16. A couple of reasons, not the least of which is my desire to be prepared if the KKK decides to go witch-hunting. The other reason will be training in case the USAF decides to send me to Iraq some time down the line. My training is somewhat limited, but I at least know I can handle an M-16.