Jesus: Atheists what are your thoughts?

[FM Arouet666]

What do you think of when you hear his name? What is your emotional response?

I have invoked quite an emotional response from the believer with my declaration "Fuck Jesus." Oops, bet I offended a few of you with this. But bare with me.

Why would an atheist try to offend a believer. My declaration is not an opposition to the message or the man, if he truly existed, but to the modern representation of the supposed deity. Jesus has become a superstar, more human than human, and just like a modern day movie star, reality bares little resemblance to the man. A man which preached equality among humans, love of humankind, concern for the poor, infirm, downtrodden is a man which I would hold in the highest esteem. So why the "F#@%" provocation?

The message has been lost though the distortion of hate radio, televangelism, GOP agenda, etc. The message has become one of intolerance and hatred. My declaration of fuck the deity is really fuck the distortion and the lies.

I personally do not believe in a "Jesus" or the bible and I easily dismiss the whole Judeo-Christian belief system. However, for those that do believe, I wonder how you feel about your deity being used in a modern day media blitz for the GOP agenda. As for you atheists, what are your thoughts on Jesus, hate him, love him, love the message, hate they distortion?

Just curious? :evilgrin:

[Modem Butterfly]

1. I find myself deeply contemplating...

..."What's for dinner?"

I hear Jesus' name, and my eyes kind of glaze over. He's just another fictional character with some good ideas to me. It's as though someone took Tom Joad and made him a deity. WWJD? Who cares? What are YOU going to do, that's what I want to know.

I have to say though that your idea of "fuck the deity" has a similar corelary in Buddhism.

[Az]

2. For me it depends on who is saying it

When Jack Van Impe says it I am sickened. When Richard Carrier says it I contemplate the historocity of the man.

[FM Arouet666]

12. Another Jack VI watcher..

Guy talks in biblical passage with a big old smile of superiority. I can tolerate about two minutes or so before I projectile vomit my spleen into the t.v. screen. Good thing I only have one spleen. :evilgrin: But your right, the messenger has a lot to do with my reaction.

[Az]

15. Not just a watcher

We live local to him (relatively).

Plus we have a story connecting us to him (us being me and my fiance).

The Bunny (guess who that is) used to work in a lab studying Listeria. Nasty little bacteria. There was a scare due to contaminated meat several years ago. The Freepress (our local paper ironically called the Freep, ironic because its the left leaning paper here) showed up and talked to their lab about the bug. They asked for some photos. They gave the paper some of the photos The Bunny had taken of the bugs she was working on. The paper ran the story on the front page and used her photos big as life right above the fold.

So here comes Jack and Roxella. They get it into their head that this Listeria scare is a sign of the end times. So there I am flicking through channels and I catch Jack standing there holding up a paper with the photos The Bunny took and proclaiming its the end of the world. I proudly informed The Bunny that she was the harbenger of doom.

Jack was over reacting a tad of course. Listeria is dangerous but typically not deadly in healthy adults.

[FM Arouet666]

17. Classic

I am astonished at the frequency with which believers are looking for a sign from gawd. I always thought that religion was based on faith, in other words, you don't need evidence. The virgin mary under an overpass, the holy mother on a grilled cheese sandwich, or the eyes of the lard on a bathroom door. Always looking for proof. Perhaps, what drives them, are all those inconvenient rational thoughts questioning faith.


You should have sent in a letter to the paper noting Jack's folly, you could have called it the "Listeria Hysteria." :evilgrin:

[Az]

16. Dupe

[onager]

3. Not much anymore...

Compared to when I was a little kid, and lived in fear that Jesus and his Dad would kill me some night in my sleep. Talk about a Personal Jesus!

There are certainly a lot more important things to get worked up over. But looking back at childhood, a lot of the crazy ideas drilled into my Widdle Head by well-meaning people strike me as nothing less than a bizarre form of child abuse.

But it was for my own good, right...?

Anyway, having read quite a bit about the old bugger, aside from his big personal fan-zine The Holy Bible, I think Jebus was just one more religious wacko in a time and place full of religious wackos.

I'd put the chance of him being a real historical figure at about 60-40, maybe less. As ranted before, I really suspect he's a composite of several charismatic Messiah Wanna-Be's from the era.

When I hear the Xian DU'ers exult about his "message of love and peace," I just don't see it, unless you ignore everything else he said (which they do, of course).

As recorded in the NT, Jesus preached nothing that wasn't already thousands of years old. He also said he intended to fulfill the Old Testament laws, and we know how Cheneyed up THOSE were.

Then there are the parts all good lib'rul Xians ignore: the calls to violence, the promise to tear families apart, the incredible egomania ALWAYS exhibited by religious leaders (having his feet washed with the Chanel of the era). Etc.

About 200 years ago, Dr. Samuel Johnson expressed my exact feelings about the Bible, and especially the four Gospels of the NT. He was writing a rejection slip to an aspiring author:

Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately, the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good.

[defiant1]

4. Well anytime, someone says Jesus, or

Jesus Christ, I always grab the arms of whatever I'm sitting on, and quickly look to and fro, asking "Where?" in a hushed, scared voice.

I get the weirdest looks.

:shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. I think there probably was a real person

who did some preaching - and he may well have been executed by the Romans (with the possible approval of the Jewish religious heirarchy, since he might have threatened their power too). But the partisan accounts mean you can't really take anything reported as his words to be definite - let alone the miracles etc. It's like trusting a snake oil salesman.

The 'message' in the gospels is, on the whole, far preferable to that of the old testament, if a little confused at times. But it's no better than, say, Socrates - and not as insightful as him.

I suspect Christianity was a cult (one of several in the area) that had the good sense to try to spread outside the Jewish people (given they were the target of Roman suppression shortly afterwards). So the early writers added in enough ideas from other religions and philosophies until it was possible for it to spread. The monotheistic aspects went well with centralised control (though they had to go through hoops to justify the weird 'holy ghost', which is an afterthought in the early writings).

[Jokerman]

6. Just a name, nothing more.

A name that, with the increasing latino population, seems to be more common than ever.

I've read the bible as literature but I've never attended church or had any religious training so the name has little or no meaning to me.

Maybe he existed, maybe he didn't. Doesn't really make any difference in my life one way or another.

[Taxloss]

7. If I hear it from a public figure other than a church leader

I tend to think "ruh-roh". Thankfully that happens very little in the UK.

As an ex-Anglican, of course, I should blaspheme by muttering "Liz!" as the church is technically based on the monarch as the representative of God on Earth, thanks to the Act of Supremacy of 1534. (This is absolutely true - Jesus-worship is basically a sideline for Anglicanism. If the monarch were to convert to, say, Islam or Zoroastrianism, the church would have to follow or lose its established status.)

I happen to think Jesus was a historical figure, but that's simply an opinion based on the same lousy evidence as everyone else's opinion. Needless to say, I think he sounds like a Nice Chap from the Gospels, but frankly rather ineffective. That might sound like an extraordinary thing to say about someone who is possibly the most influential figure in human history (if he did exist), but outside the miracles, which clearly didn't happen, he achieves very little in his lifetime.

[BiggJawn]

8. A composite.

Part shaman, part mythic figure (the die-and-rise-again thing isn't original with Jeebus) and maybe a little Lao-Tsu and Winnie-the-Pooh thrown in for flavour...

Do I think there was a man named Jesus who's "stepdad" was a carpenter and who was really the first Hippy, who got nailed to a cross by the Romans?

Nope. I do NOT.

[toddaa]

9. Not very original

Apart from the Gospel of John, which is great fun to read on LSD, the bulk of what Jesus taught wasn't particularly new or illuminating. The Beatitudes are kind of nice, but lot's of cultures have similar ethical standards. On the other hand, Paul was a great multilevel marketing salesman.

[CarbonDate]

10. Jesus: Uncle Tom

I've said this before: the OT is a tool for tyrants and bullies to justify their actions. The NT is a tool for tyrants and bullies to convince the mongrels of the world to submit to their beatings.

[salvorhardin]

11. Heh -- I like that aphorism!

Good one.

[onager]

13. CD, here's a good take on that...

I love the "What If" books, which are real fun alternative history collections. The editors get various experts in their fields to answer "what if" questions about history.

In "What If 2" the question was posed: "What if Pilate had pardoned Jesus Christ?"

Briefly...

1. The Roman Emperors love Jesus! He tells people to pay their taxes, and always be obedient to Higher Authority. The politicians of the Empire parade Jesus around as the very model of a "correct" religious leader.

2. Various splinter factions of Xianity try to arise, but with Jesus still living and backed by the power of the Roman state, they don't get too far.

The Roman Catholic Church becomes the only Xian church, and perceived heretics are ruthlessly exterminated.

3. Jesus lives to the ripe old age of 90 and dies surrounded by his great-grandchildren. He dies with the bitter thought that his life made little difference: Rome is more powerful than ever, thanks to his teachings being adopted by the State as the only "official" religion.

4. In the centuries after Jesus' death, the Roman Empire...and its Church missionaries...conquer all of Europe, the Middle East, and part of Asia, IIRC.

As the chapter ends, the Roman fleet...with a huge contingent of Official Missionaries...is heading off to invade a rumored new land. It will be called "America."

Talk about an unhappy ending...

[FM Arouet666]

14. You forgot one thing, all of humanity goes to hell

Jesus died for the sins of mankind, only through Jesus can you go to heaven. No death on the cross, no redemption, no heaven.

I have never understood the "who killed jesus" crowd. Who cares? If you believe the nursery rhyme, all that matters is that he died for your sins. Knowing this, I have no doubt that any christian propelled back in time to meet jesus would turn him into the authorities, run him over with a goat cart, smother him in frankincense or blow his ass up with the balm. "Death for you to save my christian ass." :evilgrin:

[Goblinmonger]

18. I have always thought the same

--My first post in this forum, btw-- I always get into arguments with family members that talk about Judas being the ultimate bad guy. Somebody had to turn in Jesus or he wouldn't have died for our sins. Should Judas have a special house in heaven since he saved us all? Nope. Most Xians doom him to eternal damnation for doing something that God required. Bummer for him.

[onager]

20. Welcome to our forum! And tell the family...

:hi:

...that ol' Judas was probably a revolutionary freedom fighter, just like George Washington.

That's a pretty interesting story (well, to me at least).

Judas' last name was Iscariot, which seems to be a play on the word sicarii. That literally meant "knife-men."

In first-century Judea, the sicarii were a branch of the Zealots who believed in direct action--i.e., killing their enemies. They always carried knives easily hidden in their clothing, and used them to stab Roman soldiers, tax collectors, Judean collaborators etc.

While the Buy-bull is as clear on this as it is everything else--not very--the "Iscariot" implies that Judas was one of these people. Or if you were a Roman, one of these terrorists.

So while Jesus went around flapping his gums telling vague parables and encouraging people to "render unto Caesar," the hated and vilified Judas Iscariot may have actually been doing something useful to get rid of the tyrants.

[onager]

19. Sorry. The article was alternative history...

...but it was still reality-based. ;-)

The author didn't go into all the mythology. Just the practical results of JC not dying in the real world.

I may try to read that chapter again over the weekend. I probably got some of the details wrong in my thumbnail description. I distinctly remember the part about the Roman Empire and its official church colonizing America, though.

[FM Arouet666]

30. I wonder which would be worse

Hitler winning WWII or the church remaining in power, no Renaissance, no emergence from the dark ages, a global catastrophe?

[PinkUnicorn]

21. Hmm...

Well the first bit may have worked, but fairly soon he would have been called to 'show the goods', by the senate or an emperor who wants something, by doing a few miracles. When he uses a coy cop-out or fails to show, he would "accidently stab himself in the back 47 times". No "noble sacrifice for humanity" just a ditch in the paupers graveyard with the other executions.

Also religions who have their 'god figure' alive and walking around tend not to be very popular beyond a small fanatic circle. When he screws up its plain for all to see he's all to human - gods are meant to be mysterious and powerful. Having one actually turn up to your toga party drunk as a skunk, hitting on your wife and vomiting in the atrium tends to turn people off, even if he is a 'state approved' deity. They would be looking for a better one - given the time and location probably Mithra-ism.

[onager]

22. I'm not sure...

Judging by some of their quotes, the Romans were as cynical as modern rulers about religion:

"Religion is considered true by the common people, false by the wise, and useful by the politicians." (Attributed to Seneca)

"If you did not realize by the age of five that the gods were only made-up things and the stories about them fables, you are a fool."--Suetonius

It would seem that imposing a religion with a living leader might be a problem, as you note. But I need to re-read the material again. I probably didn't do a good job of describing it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. Oh vey. I SO want this book.

It's a bitch to search for a book based on "what if" asd a title. What's the name of the author?

[salvorhardin]

24. Here you go...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/042518613X

How I found it: I googled 'what if jesus had been pardoned' (without the quotes). The Amazon link was the first one.

[onager]

25. Here you go (again)!

Cross-post with salvor! :hi:

The Amazon listing. The book is now available for 10 bucks! They also have a package deal with the first "What If?" book, which dealt with military history:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/042518613X/qid=1127590508/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7932485-5853661?v=glance&s=books

The chapter on Jesus was written by Carlos M.N. Eire, professor of History And Religious Studies at Yale. And I did disremember some things.

Here are a couple of snippets:

Year after year (Jesus) received protection from the Roman authorities. They liked what he had to say, despite all his talk about a Kingdom to come.

The Romans knew that all this Kingdom talk is like that of followers of Mithras, or Zoroaster, or even the Egyptian mother-goddess Isis.

Spiritual talk, that's all. He taught people to turn the other cheek and forgive their enemies.

What a wonderful message to preach to a subject people! Anyone who preached docile submission must be protected, especially if he also encouraged people to pay their taxes. "Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar..."

As to those lands discovered across the Atlantic Ocean by the client state of the Norsemen in the 9th century, they will all be Roman too.

Conquered bit by bit, those two continents will be converted to the Roman religion, all the way down to Tierra del Fuego, by the year 1400...

Some other chapters in "What If 2:"

31 BCE: Antony & Cleopatra win the battle of Actium
15th century: the Chinese navy discovers the New World
1802: Napoleon invades North America
1917: Lenin doesn't make it back for the Russian Revolution
WWII: Pope Pius XII strongly denounces Holocaust (Heh...!)
1945: Atomic bomb fails, U.S. invades Japan
1946: Hitler tried for war crimes
A Tale Of Three Congressmen: America Without Nixon, LBJ, and JFK

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. I wish my mom was alive

She loved History, and loved to read books about it. She'd cream herself over this. Hell, I'm creaming myself over this.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

27. When I hear the words JESUS CHRIST,

it's usually coming from my own mouth after doing some stupid like hitting my thumb with a hammer. I'm an atheist, so it's perplexing that I get so much satisfaction from using the epithet.

When I hear others say it, it's usually during a prayer or other religous ritual where the words are rote and have about as much meaning to the speaker as they do to me.

[onager]

28. One of my co-workers is always noting...

...that for an atheist, I say "goddamit" and "Jesus Christ" a lot.

I keep reminding him that it's only cultural, and if we were in ancient Rome I'd be saying "Jupiter dammit!"

BTW, welcome to the group!

:hi:

As you've probably noticed, we could use reinforcements right now.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

29. Thanks onager, I appreciate the welcome

I've been lurking since at least 2003, and been a member since early this year. I made a donation and got my gold star specifically because of the A&A group. I don't get many chances to post, but I visit at least once a day to recharge my batteries after being out in my hyperchristian community.

I've noticed that we're seriously outnumbered, even here at DU, but it's far better than what I put up with IRL. I try hard to avoid even the appearance of a persecution complex, but it's fucking hard when atheists are so marginalized. I hate being considered a second class citizen.

Thanks for the welcome. :toast: :hi: