Question for people who know the Bible more than I do

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Are instances of collective/tribal guilt (entire cities punished for sin, children being killed to punish the parents etc...) to be found only in the Old Testament or in the New also?

I have... uses for such information. More, I can't say.

[Az]

1. The NT is relatively free of destruction and violence

Except against Fig Trees and vendor stalls in temples. However Jesus does proclaim a lot of death and destruction for those that don't listen to him. He also claims to support all the laws of the OT. He just uses some loopholes to avoid having to stone everyone to death.

[onager]

2. Get thee to the SAB...

Good question. Try here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Their handy "Atrocities" link may bring up an answer for you very quickly.

Off the top of my alleged head, I can recall that peaceful, loving hippie lib'rul Jesus predicting several mass exterminations.

For one, he threatens the destruction of Jerusalem and the razing of the Temple until "not one stone remains on another." (IIRC).

However, this is obviously one of those handy "post-predictions" that got retro-fitted into the Gosh-spels after the fact. It's referring to the Roman invasion of Judea between 66-70 CE.

As a minor point on that "false prophecy" thing the Fundies like to jabber about, Jerusalem was never completely destroyed. (Obviously!) And the western wall of the Temple still has plenty of stones left.

JC also predicted the destruction of Sidon, which remains today where it always was, off the Israeli coast.

[Az]

4. Keep in mind the out here

Actual violence committed is not the same as violence predicted. Aside from a few pigs, the fig tree, and the rucuss at the temple there is no actual violence or harm committed in the NT. Lots of promises of doom and gloom if no one listens to him. But it is different and the believers will not see it as violence.

[PinkUnicorn]

5. True, however....

Hi, been lurking for a while and finally decided to get off the pot and be of use to a forum I have followed for quite a while...

As for actually violence/promise of violence it's a tricky thing. If a statement is taken as 'prophecy' and the text the prophecy is made in is considered inerrant, then for intensive purposes it may as well have happened as the infallible prophecy states it will happen - and by that alone Revelations appears like a gore-fest. ( Of course as for the accuracy of biblical prophecies, just look at the prophecy of Tyre. :P )

But in any case there are instance of harm being inflicted on people - though 2000 pigs would definitely get the RSPCA riled up. Off the top of my head....

Acts - 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him , because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Acts 13:11 - And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

I hope I am not out of line here :)

[onager]

6. Welcome!

:hi:

IMO, you're not out of line at all. Drop by anytime!

Tyre is fascinating to me...as I've ranted before...because of the months-long siege Alexander The Great conducted there.

Since Tyre is an island, first he had to build a long causeway extending out into the sea. Then he had his engineers build two huge wooden siege towers for shooting catapults over the city walls.

Unfortunately for him, the Tyrians were also great engineers. Among other things, they chained two big fire ships together and set up an ingenious timed "fuse." IIRC, the fuses were slow-burning fires that eventually ate away the bottom of the tall masts, and sent them toppling into the siege towers...just about the time the ships arrived at Alexander's causeway.

Sorry for the OT interjection...

[PinkUnicorn]

9. OT - Thank you

Thank you. I just want to tread carefully due to recent forum events. :)

I have always been interested in the ingenious methods used by the engineers of antiquity. Alexander at Tyre, Archimedes with his claw and mirrors, Leonardo's machines, Heron's steam ball and robots, Imhotep and the pyramids, etc. Which is why I used Tyre as an example of 'the prophecy'.

It really gets my goat when woo-woos and fundies put down human ingenuity and effort to space aliens or gods. The human race deserves credit for its achievements, not some invisible being who 'shows up' afterward.

[onager]

10. Here's a book recommendation...

...if you don't have it already.

The Ancient Engineers by L. Sprague de Camp

It's old, published in the Sixties, but still engrossing. And still in demand, I guess. I found it at one of the big chain bookstores in hardcover for a low price.

When he's writing about Roman engineering, de Camp notes that science and engineering fell out of fashion in Rome largely because of the emerging "Mystery Cults."

Why bother learning to improve things on earth when you could indulge in all sorts of Magickal Claptrap involving a World Beyond that might give you a bigger payoff?

He also notes, with wonderful sarcasm, that one Mystery Cult finally won out over all the others--Xianity.

Because it had "the tightest organization, the most fanatical followers, and the most incomprehensible logic..."

:rofl:

[Az]

7. Welcome! And no you are not out of line

Glad to have you join in. Bottom line most of the reason I speak out so much is to let other atheists know its ok to come in from the cold. We are not going to make the shackles of authoratative religious belief drop from this earth over night. So the best we can do is gather together and work on building a better world using reason and compassion.

One of the things I try to do when discussing things with theists is attempt to see how they are going to view the issue. So when I say something is an out it means from their point of view (in this case) there is not a lot of violence in the NT even with the prophecies in there.

Their rational is that Jesus is not threatening to do these things. Rather he is just trying to warn people of what is to come should they ignore his warnings. Sort of like people sitting on the beach in front of Rita. Someone warning them of the impending storm is not the one doing the harm to them.

Of course from our perspective its all bunk. The context of the story is that God is the one dooming them all in the first place. Thus he is responsible. Mention this to them and they counter with freewill.

Upshot, the only violence you can get them to acknowledge in the NT is the Temple burly brawl (matrix subref), the fig tree (Jesus really seems to have some anger management problems), and the pigs(which they will claim all manner of things including they are just animals and have no souls).

The thing that always puzzled me is if Jesus claims to uphold all the OT laws and rules and he was supposedly without sin, why wasn't he stoning everyone as the laws suggested?

[PinkUnicorn]

8. I see, my bad

Ah, I see where you are coming form. Sorry if I was overly cautious. :)

How do you 'see it from their point of view' if I may ask? Whist it would allow you to prepare counter arguments in advance, the ambiguity of the very text in question gives them "goal posts on super charged wheels".

If you try pin them on a statement or claim, like fog they reform the statement into what they desire thus nullifying your counter-statement. Using the hurricane example - if it hits it's because god willed it/they sinned/whatever, while if it misses - it's because of gods mercy/prayer/whatever. Saying that it's merely a weather phenomena wont work because they can put any action they like down to supernatural causes.

I try to use logic on them, and by having them concede a seemingly small fact we both agree on (bible is inerrant, JC said this, etc), then once both sides agree on the specific statements, then you draw the connection and they are hoisted by their own petard. But once again they can do the fog trick and reform by saying "I really meant this....".

[Az]

11. I tend towards the Socratic method

It allows them to build their own pitfalls.

I also have a lot of experience debating all manner of believer. I found out quite quickly that the argument disintegrated if I was not able to find a way to draw out the nature of the beliefs the individual had.

Take for example a small argument I throw early on in religious debates. I ask them to deal with the problem of Lev 11:6 (cud chewing rabbits: hint, rabbits don't chew cud). The actual point of this is not to prove the bible wrong. It is to find out what sort of style to expect from the individual. It seperates out literalists from those that believe it was inspired. It tells you whether you are dealing with a full on fundie or someone that is more open minded.

[CarbonDate]

3. Lots of good stuff in the book of Revelations

Lots of collective punishment. Apparently, only 144,000 people (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea) get to go to Heaven. The rest of us will burn in the lake of fire.

Nice guy, their god.