And another must read, this time by the Emperor in the Skeptic's group:

[beam me up scottie]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=3194&mesg_id=3194

[trotsky]

1. A truly excellent writeup.

Reminds us of what we struggle against. Though at the same time depresses me because it shows just how unwinnable this battle is. *sigh*

[Az]

2. Not unwinnable

They can only win if we let them. Are you going to let them win?
.
.
.
.
.
I didn't think so.

[arwalden]

9. That All Depends On Where The Battlefield Is.

[Az]

10. Someone's been reading Sun Tzu

:D

Always be aware of the ground you are fighting on.

[Az]

3. Some numbers and stats to consider

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tren.htm

The percentage of American adults who identify themselves as Christians dropped from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001. This is an unprecedented drop.

Confidence in religious institutions has hit an all-time low.

There appears to be a major increase in interest in spirituality among North Americans. However, this has not translated into greater church involvement.

Mainline denominations have been losing membership for decades in the U.S.; conservative denominations have been growing.

At the present rates of change, Islam will become the dominant religion in the world before 2050 CE.

At the present rate of change, most Americans will be non-Christians by the year 2035 CE.

The numbers of "unchurched" people has increased rapidly in the U.S. These are individuals who have not attended church in recent months.

Agnosticism, Atheism, secularism are growing rapidly.

Interest in new religious movements (e.g. New Age, Neopaganism) is growing rapidly. In particular, Wiccans are doubling in numbers about every 30 months.

The influence of the central, program-based congregation is diminishing as more cell churches are being created.

Many Christians have left congregations and formed house churches - small groups meeting in each other's homes.

[trotsky]

5. This is supposed to encourage me?

"At the present rates of change, Islam will become the dominant religion in the world before 2050 CE."

Ack!

[Az]

6. I rather suspect Islam is self limiting

At the very least the aggressive terrorist inspiring form is.

But based on the numbers alone Islam is the faster growing denomination. It is only by applying a simple projection that they come to that conclusion. Reality does not operate by simple projections.

The point of those numbers is that reason is still on the rise. Fundamentalism is waning in nations that are industrialized. The spread of Islam indicates that the hold Chrisitianity once held is weakening.

One would expect to see a rise in alternate religions as the dominant strain loses its grip. Most people grow up with a learned need to believe in things. This doesn't go away simply because the thing they used to believe in is being chipped away at. They switch to nonchurched based sects. They explore new religions. Some even break free and join our ranks.

[progressoid]

7. If this is trend does continue

I would hope it would also spread to the Muslim world as well. Hopefully, as we become more and more interconnected, the realization of the oppression of religion will become more obvious to all believers.


Hey, I can dream can't I?

[beam me up scottie]

4. I know.

I thought of you when I read that they didn't vaccinate their children.

It's criminal.

[GOPFighter]

8. Young people in western Europe have...

..turned their backs on religion in record numbers. I suspect it will eventually happen here. Hope I live to see it!

[onager]

11. Anybody wanna come over to LBN and...

...help me bash that tiresome old fraud, the Dalai Lama?

:evilgrin:

[Az]

12. Ok run by me the problems we have with the Dalai

As far as I have read he is an atheist. I have not delved too deeply into the conflicts you are refering to so would like to be briefed on them.

[onager]

13. An ATHEIST?

He calls himself a Buddhist pretty unequivocally. And he got in hot water with the Chinese in 1995 when he selected a successor, using that "Sacred Child" mumbo-jumbo:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/dalai2.htm

As a member of the Tibetan religious elite before 1959, he was one of the 5% who controlled 95% of the property. From "The Dalai Lama's Hidden Past:"

Tibet's Buddhist monastic nobility controlled all land on behalf of the "gods". They monopolised the country's wealth by exacting tribute and labour services from peasants and herders. This system was similar to how the medieval Catholic Church exploited peasants in feudal Europe...The peasantry lived in dire poverty while enormous wealth accumulated in the monasteries and in the Dalai Lama's palace in Lhasa...

In 1956 the Dalai Lama, fearing that the Chinese government would soon move on Lhasa, issued an appeal for gold and jewels to construct another throne for himself. This, he argued, would help rid Tibet of "bad omens". One hundred and twenty tons were collected. When the Dalai Lama fled to India in 1959, he was preceded by more than 60 tons of treasure.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/248/248p23.htm

Oh, he was on the CIA payroll for many years. Just google "Dalai Lama + CIA." That's open knowledge.

He's a moral coward when it comes to certain powerful politicians. From a great article in The Humanist, "Why Won't The Dalai Lama Pick A Fight?":

...when asked about the U.S. invasion of Iraq, he said simply: "It is too early to say what will happen. Wait a few years. That is my opinion." And in a March 11, 2003, official statement on the same issue, he said, "All we can do is pray for the gradual end to the tradition of wars," adding, "I don't know whether our prayers will be of any practical help." Some might call this passivity.

Pray for an end to war! Wow, THAT's helpful!

Finally, just for fun, a great article by pissed-off atheist Naomi Rousseau, "Why I Hate The Dalai Lama:"

http://www.physicsroom.org.nz/log/archive/10/lama/

[Taxloss]

14. I agree. A seriously overrated individual.

[Az]

16. Buddhism is not theistic and he has actively denied a creator

From http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dalai_Lama
-----------------------------------------
He's the Tibetian Spiritual Leader.
He is a Buddhist who has openly stated that there's no creator.
A contributor to the reports that the Dalai Lama said the following (Ed. When? Where?):

"Basically, religions may be divided into two groups. One group, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and some ancient Indian traditions, I call God religions. Their fundamental faith is in a Creator. The other group of religious tradition, including Jainism, Buddhism, I usually call godless religions. They do not believe in a Creator. But, of course, God is a sense of infinite love. The religions are not so different in this understanding. But God in the sense of Creator, something absolute, that is difficult to accept.

"According to some, godless religion is more effective; according to others, God religions are more effective. The position is individual; it is a matter of choice."
-----------------------------------------


Beyond this I do not know enough about this individual to make any claims.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Tibetan Buddhism looks polytheistic to me

If this is genuine:

The Dalai Lamas

According to the Buddhist religion, in the animal kingdom death is constantly followed by rebirth-dog or fish being born as man, woman, bird, snake, or any other animal, and man perhaps as worm or flea, a good life meriting rebirth on a higher plane, until at last by goodness man may attain to Nirvana.

The Dalai Lama, High-Priest and King of Tibet, is regarded by Tibetans as a Bodhisatwa- one who, having attained the right to Nirvana, consents to be reborn for the benefit of his fellow creatures. Various Gods, or the aspects of the Godhead, and remarkable personalities of former time, are held to be present in the world in human form. The persons in whom they are incarnate are called Yangsi-“reborn”-or Trulku- “change bodies”. Ordinarily when such persons have been discovered they are initiated into the Tibetan Church and are crown in English as Incarnation Lamas, or, less accurately, as Living Buddhas. (Only monks of very high degree are properly called Lama, the real meaning of the word Lama being one to whom unlimited gratitude is due, and, by inference, a teacher of religion. Dalai is a Mongolian word meaning ocean). But in Tibetan Buddhism there are no absolute rules and it is believed in Tibet that Queen Victoria was the Yangsi of the goddess Palden Lhamo, whose image is in the Great Temple at Lhasa. The Dalai Lamas are incarnations of Chenrezi, the God of Mercy, and are also reincarnations of their predecessors. When L Dalai Lama dies, the primary task which confronts Church and State in Tibet is not elect or create a successor to the late Dalai Lama but to discover the boy in whom Chenrezi has already become reincarnate.

http://www.buddhapia.com/tibet/14_dalai_lama.html

and there are many more mentions of gods in that piece. It may just be they don't think that one was "The Creator".

[Az]

21. My understanding

Having discussed this with self avowed Buddhists is that these gods are really more akin to representitive of ideals. Not actual beings that are prayed to. Instead concepts upon which to focus.

It is my further understanding that Buddhism is not inherantly theist or antitheistic. Merely that it does not directly address the issue of a personal god, creator, or any of the other concepts associated with standard claims of theistic beliefs. Thus it is up to the practitioner as to whether they believe in gods or not.

Atheism does not mean that a person does not have other beliefs. Atheists can believe in ghosts and spirits and all manner of fantastic things and still be construed an atheist. I don't happen to share these beliefs and would hope that increasing the value of reason and skeptical thinking would drive such notions back into the darkness. But the sole statement made was that the Dalai Lama is an atheist.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. But were they Tibetan Buddhists?

Supernatural beings are prominent in Tibetan Buddhism. Buddhas and bodhisattvas abound, gods and spirits taken from earlier Tibetan religions continue to be taken seriously. Bodhisattvas are portrayed as both benevolent godlike figures and wrathful deities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/subdivisions/tibetan2.shtml

With the Dalai Lama himself a reincarnation of a bodhisattva, they seem more than an 'ideal' to me. Unless he has repudiated the basis on which he was appointed head of the religion, his use of 'godless' just seems inaccurate, to me.

[BiggJawn]

22. Godless and no Creator...

Then,I have to wonder, just who or what are all those Prayer Wheels and Drums turned and spun for?

[Az]

24. Good question

Seems silly to me too.

[BiggJawn]

25. Seems kinda pointless, doesn't it?

Of course, I feel that way about most Affairs Spiritual...

[Taxloss]

15. Az, what happened to you, man?

eom

[Az]

17. See above

I honestly have not been reading up on the activities of the Dalai. Buddhism as I understand it is not inherantly theistic. What little I have read about the Dalai indicate that he is an atheist. What his other philosophical beliefs are at this time I am simply unaware of.

Pretty straight forward.

[onager]

18. But Buddhists have monks and nuns!

And I'm certainly not an expert myself, but several articles mention that Tibetan Buddhist priests were forced to take a vow of celibacy.

Even more cruel was a policy that said "pick one of two" or "pick two of three." If you were a poor family and had more than one son, then one was going into the priesthood whether you liked it or not.

I think some of our confusion may be over "Buddhism" in general as opposed to "Buddhism" as specifically practiced in Tibet.

But check this out:

An Office of Tibet document claims "soon after His Holiness the Dalai Lama's arrival in India, he re-established the Tibetan Government in exile, based on modern democratic principles". Yet it took more than 30 years for an Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies to be directly elected from among the 130,000 exiles.

Of 46 assembly members, only 30 are elected. The other 16 are appointed by religious authorities or directly by the Dalai Lama.

All assembly decisions must be approved by the Dalai Lama, whose sole claim to the status of head of state is that he has been selected by the gods.

The separation of church and state is yet to be recognised by the Dalai Lama as a "modern democratic principle".

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/248/248p23.htm

[Az]

20. Never denied any of this

I merely stated ignorance of the matter. The only thing I claimed was that the Dalai Lama has made statements that place him in the atheist camp. An active denial of god or gods.

As to whether their philosophical or religious practices make any sense that is an entirely different subject. I do not agree with Buddhism philosophically. But I also believe that fundamentalist Christianity probably poses a greater threat to the world than their particular belief set does.

I asked for information because I am ignorant on this subject. It was not a challenge. If there is a threat inherant to the Buddhist teachings I am more than willing to listen.

Relax.

[onager]

23. I didn't take it as a challenge.

Just trying to provide info. And I'm relaxed. Not hyperventilating or anything.

BTW, I saw that the Dalai Lama is listed on Celebrity Atheists. However, I think that's just because someone nominated him. I saw a post from someone who thought he should be listed.

Frankly, I was a little surprised at that.

He's also on record as saying nice things about atheists, but then he tends to say nice things about almost everybody.

[trotsky]

27. Dalai Lama: NOT an atheist.

http://www.tibet.com/Buddhism/nechung_hh.html

In his autobiography, Freedom in Exile, His Holiness the Dalai Lama writes:

"For hundreds of years now, it has been traditional for the Dalai Lama, and the Government, to consult Nechung during the New Year festivals. In addition, he might well be called upon at other times if either have specific queries. I myself have dealings with him several times a year This may sound far-fetched to twentieth-century western readers. Even some Tibetans, mostly those who consider themselves 'progressive', have misgivings about my continued use of this ancient method of intelligence gathering. But I do so for the simple reason that as I look back over the many occasions when I have asked questions of the oracle, on each one of them time has proved that his answer was correct. This is not to say that I rely solely on the oracle's advice. I do not. I seek his opinion in the same way as I seek the opinion of my Cabinet and just as 1 seek the opinion of my own conscience. I consider the gods to be my 'upper house'. The Kashag constitutes my lower house. Like any other leader, I consult both before making a decision on affairs of state. And sometimes, in addition to Nechung's counsel, I also take into consideration certain prophecies.