Why We Fight...

[onager]

Letter at James Randi's site this week:

...I polled 56 students in two of my Sociology classes (at a post-secondary institution which I wish to remain nameless) about the "spirit world" and its interaction with the material world. Here are a few of the pertinent results:

62% of those polled believe in an anthropomorphic god who intervenes in history.

61% of those polled believe that prayer is effective in treating illness.

37% of those polled believe that when a child is born with MS or Down Syndrome, there is a spiritual explanation for it: it’s "destiny" or "meant to be," god is teaching the parents a lesson, it’s a test, a punishment, or karma.

25% of those polled believe that Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast for a supernatural reason: it's the “end times,” it’s a test or warning or message or punishment from god, or – amazingly – "nobody knows" why it hit.

66% of those polled believe that when they die, they will continue to live on spiritually: experience judgment, go to heaven or hell, await the kingdom of god, enter some spirit world, or join with other spirits somewhere in the universe.

It's no wonder that so many people are susceptible to the claims of cold readers, spoon benders, e-meter readers, astrologers, channelers, faith healers, mediums, dowsers, homeopaths and proponents of "Intelligent Design.

Keep up the fine work, sir. Meantime, I need a good stiff drink.

[Az]

1. Very good post

But remember people believe things because they believe them. The struggle we have is not to beat them up but to bring the light of reason back. It matters not if we are right if they won't listen to us. Our task is to figure out how to sustain the age of reason rather than let it subside into the age of delusion.

[BiggJawn]

2. That's gonna be a long, lonely task, Az.

Because the Deluded have been innoculated against reason, told "Oh, don't believe those who say you're grabbing at fairy tales, because they want you to LOSE your salvation!"

They FEAR "The Light of Reason". to them, it's "The Devil's Light".

And if they won't gaze upon the Light of Reason, then HOW can we "reason with them" as you're always telling us to do.

I's LOVE to reason with them, but no, they don't want to reason, they're too busy looking for a stake and firewood.

[Az]

3. Its the only task possible

What is the alternative? Armed rebellion? Mocking? Self imposed isolation? None of these are options. The only path that makes any sense is to fight for reason. And the only way to fight for reason is to use reason.

So many look at the problem as if it were one of facing a monolithic foe. But that is simply not the case. It is an endless grey plane. Each time we make the case for reason in a reasonable way we shift the balance. Sometimes only a small amount. Sometimes a large amount. But its the only way to make a difference.

If we just hide our heads in the sand we lose. If we turn nasty and attack all beliefs we lose. But if we stand up, hold the moral highground, and fight for reason we make progress.

Lonely? Only if no one sees the sense of reason. Long? It will only be longer if we do nothing.

[indigo32]

4. AZ

I have long admired your thoughful, intelligent posts.

[Zenlitened]

5. "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."
— Martin Luther

"If Christian people work together, they can succeed during this decade in winning back control of the institutions that have been taken from them over the past 70 years. Expect confrontations that will be not only unpleasant but at times physically bloody. When it is over, I am convinced God’s people will emerge victorious."
— Reverend Pat Robertson

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Quotes.htm

More tea? Perhaps another crumpet?

:scared:

[Az]

6. Know what you are up against

And know the cost of not fighting.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/scarstartframe.htm

I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism.
-- Randall Terry, quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, August 16, 1993

When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.
-- Randall Terry, referring to doctors who perform abortions, quoted from TheWarOnFaith.com

[Zenlitened]

7. But, you know, they're not REAL christians.

*Zenlitened's eyes roll right out of her head*

:eyes:

[Az]

8. I prefer to say they are not all xians n/t

[Zenlitened]

9. Luther, Robertson, Terry? They're all christians. n/t

[Az]

10. You missed my meaning

I was saying that they do not represent all christians. Sorry if I was not clear.

[Zenlitened]

11. Unfortunately, they do represent all christians in a very real sense.

They, in many ways, are the public face of christianity in America today.

[Az]

12. That is an issue

Let us say they do not clearly enunciate the views of all Christians. Unfortunately they do have rather large soap boxes and as such tend to shout louder than most. Part of what we need to do is to challenge those Christians that do not agree with their positions to shout them down. To not let their beliefs be hijacked by these monsters.

We have to remind them that silence in the face of such claims presents the public with the notion that there is tacit agreement. But if they are busy arguing with us about how many angels are actually on that pin they are not going to have much left over to challenge the real threats our society faces.

There are going to be believers on the wall defending the seperation of Church and State. People like Randell and Robertson make them ill.

Keep in mind ours is not the only sort of oppression out there. These liberal believers are in a very nasty place as well. They are watching as their churchs and fellow believers turn to the dark side. They are being abandoned in many cases by their religions. If all we have to offer them when they turn to liberalism is a cold shoulder because they don't know the secret handshake we lose allies in the most important battle.

[Zenlitened]

13. Cold shoulder and secret handshakes?

:shrug:

A little less of the "don't criticize religion!" whimpering is all that's being asked of them.

[Az]

14. I understand

[onager]

15. No kidding...

I'm still irked, and therefore influenced, by recent events.

It seems to me that a LARGE part of the recent trouble started over just what Zenlitened mentioned: we atheists pointing out that people who call themselves "followers of Jesus Christ" are Xians. That may include liberal stalwarts, but it certainly includes the right-wingers, whether the left-wing Xians like it or not.

I do realize they're trying to play a neat little metaphysical trick by insisting the R-W'rs "don't follow the teachings of Christ." But according to the R-Wers, THEY DO. And I grew up around Fundamentalists. Try telling some of my relatives they're not a "real Xian" or "don't understand the Real Teachings Of Jesus (tm)!" You'll be lucky if you come away with just a punch in the nose.

And I nearly went thru the ceiling when I saw Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell called "atheists." And other DU Xians AGREEING! The Twue Bewievers should at least have the honesty to admit that those clowns are simply not their kind of Xian. But they should NEVER be allowed to foist them off on us.

Yet when asked if she was using hyperbole or kidding etc., the original poster of that idiocy just kept insisting that, no, anyone who disagreed with HER vision of Xianity was, perforce, an atheist.

Amazing. Truly jaw-dropping. And some of the very people I expected to back us up either stayed silent or agreed with that nonsense.