...sticking toe in water...

[GOPFighter]

Okay, I accept that this is a political website first and foremost. Forums and groups covering peripheral topics like sports, cooking, photography, etc. are provided for our enjoyment and generally have nothing to do with politics. Maybe at one time religion could have been relegated to the peripheral, non-political forums, but today we have religious zealots who have amassed great power in the Republican party and they are forcing their brand of Christian "morality" onto the entire nation. I, for one, cannot discuss what's wrong with the Republican Party without including the actions of those religious zealots.

This makes it particularly tough, because many Democratic Christians get very defensive when anyone, especially an atheist, criticizes their religion. They take it personally and that's when we get in trouble on DU.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian, extremist RW home. After 20 years in their clutches, I know that the god those Christians worship is not Jesus but the god of conservative politics. Jesus advocated love, they concentrate on hate and exclusion; Jesus told his followers to trust him and he would keep them safe, they put their trust in atomic bombs and wars. The point is, to some Christians the line between religion and politics is almost nonexistent.

What really annoys me is that I try to base by political decisions on facts. If someone says NAFTA is good for America, I want to know why. Who benefits, who loses. If someone says the death penalty deters crime, I want to see the figures and judge for myself. If someone says posting the Ten Commandments in schools will curb violence, and restore moral fiber to our youth, I want some proof. But it doesn't exist. When it comes to religion, no proof is needed and when you balk, they label you intolerant, they call you anti-religion, they get very defensive.

Take the annual National Day of Prayer, for example. Calling a national day of prayer is very exclusionary for the millions of Americans who don't believe in prayer. At the most recent day of prayer (May 5) George Bush said we pray for the following reasons: 1. We pray to give thanks for our freedom, 2. we pray for help in defending the gift of freedom from those who seek to destroy it, and 3. we pray to acknowledge our dependence on the Almighty. He went on to say "We who ask for God's help for ourselves, have a particular obligation to care for the least of our brothers and sisters within our midst." http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050505.html I think it's valid to ask for proof that it was God who granted our freedom. Second, I can only conclude that if millions of Americans prayed for God to help us defend our freedom "from those who seek to destroy it", God has not done a real good job. How many American soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since May 5? Does this represent a significant reduction in the number of deaths before May 5? And if we acknowledge our dependence on the almighty then who can we logically blame Hurricane Katrina on? And guess what economic cohort bore the biggest brunt of the suffering as a result of Katrina? The "least of our brothers and sisters within our midst."

These are valid observations. For years and years we've been pummeled by Christians who insist we as a nation must proclaim a national day of prayer every year - alienating millions of Americans - and yet there is not a single bit of evidence that prayer is effective. And yet these Christian zealots continue to insist this country must acknowledge their God, insist that their God is responsible for our freedom, and then turn around and support programs that do just the opposite of what Jesus taught. How can we keep quiet about that? But if we post something like this in General Discussion: Politics a lot of Christians (who are not the main target of our anger) would be outraged, our thread would be locked and we'd be possibly tombstoned.

As a Democrat and an atheist I have a right to question the effectiveness of a national day of prayer, to ask for proof that posting the Ten Commandments changes people's lives for the better, to ask for proof that reciting a prayer in our public schools, or before Congress convenes, or before a football game makes a difference. I have a right to ask what public prayer is supposed to accomplish and ask for some proof that it accomplished it's purpose. Since my government is imposing, or trying to impose, these on our public life I should have the right to discuss it in a political forum without being afraid of being labeled a troublemaker.

I think what really scares mainstream Democrats these days is the real possibility of losing religious voters who want nothing to do with any political party that shelters atheists.

[arwalden]

1. Great Post...

:thumbsup:

But you know... atheists are STILL political poison. We are equivalent to lepers that many in power and in authority want to isolate and marginalize.

But you know... and "Atheist Colony" might not be such a bad thing.

[GOPFighter]

4. An atheist colony!

Sounds mighty good.

May I suggest just outside of Nice, France?

[A HERETIC I AM]

2. Nicely, and i might add "Delicately" put!

I feel the same way about the "National day for Shoving Christianity Down the Collective Throat of the Country"

I think what scares MOST folks about Atheists is that we just might....MAYBE....JUUUUST possibly be right. The possibility that the security blanket religious belief is to them is not a warm blanket at all but a wet bit of tissue paper.


BTW....watch that section of eggshells over -------->there.....

I already walked there and not breaking them wasnt easy! In fact, you could see my footprints if they werent already swept up!

[GOPFighter]

3. Uh, yeah, I saw the eggshells...

...and decided to step where you stepped...very carefully. Glad you made it!

I think you're right, no small number suspect we're right, but just can't let go off the security blanket. In fact I'm sure I went through that stage before deciding to start being honest with myself.

Sadly, they don't realize how liberated they will feel to be rid of the inconsistencies and hypocrisies that are so rampant in today's organized religion. God says Thou shalt not kill, common sense says Thou shalt not kill, and yet much of the support for the war comes from xtians. Oh yeah, and what about the biblical passage that says it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. And yet the entire Bush administration is filthy rich.

It's tough being a good Christian

[BiggJawn]

5. Really great post!

Hmmm....It's been here 4 hours and hasn't evaporated yet...
The Prowlers must be watching "VeggieTales" this evening...

And how about the "National Day of Giving Thanks that Halliburton is gonna make a Bigger Killing in NOLA than Katrina Did" that he called a few weeks ago?

My thought was "How often is he going to call a Day of 'Prayer'? As often as he needs to in order to get his polls back abouve 45%?"

"...many Democratic Christians get very defensive when anyone, especially an atheist, criticizes their religion. They take it personally and that's when we get in trouble on DU."

You hit that one square on. OK, so it's in the "Mission Statement" of this group that we won't make "personal attacks" on anyone because of their belief. Problem is, there's another rulebook that is set to the maxim of "Love Me, Love my Dog", in that ANY criticism of religion, and Christianity IN PARTICULAR, is taken as a personal affront and insult.
We could be discussing the way a particular Telly-vangelist fleeces The Gullible, and because some poster here is a "Power Partner" of that particular crook, BAM! the "Alert" button gets hit.

Another thing....Anyone here on DU is more than welcome to post "I believe in Jeebus! I believe the Son of GAWD died for me! I have a PERSONAL relationship with Him!" and nothing's officially done. And maybe nothing SHOULD be done. As long as you're not using the "EN" or "SEE" word, no offense is committed.
Let me say "and I believe people who believe THAT are a few fries short a Happy Meal...", and I'm "Bashing". And the post evaporates. And then I start to wonder about things.

I see how it is now. And the "Eggshell" thread did nothing to reassure me that it isn't the way I see it.

To reply to the title declaration of one of my favourite books, "It Can't Happen Here!" (you lurkers should check it out instead of wasting your time with that "Left Behind" drek)

"Like HELL it CAN'T! It already IS!"

[onager]

7. Good points all, BJ...

And it's not just the Xians. You probably remember not long ago when someone seemed to be aggressively patrolling A&A for the word "woo-woo." And getting posts deleted in here, if I remember correctly.

Yet these same people barge into discussions in the "Skepticism" group with venomous and near-legally actionable rants about James Randi, Michael Shermer, Carl Sagan, et. al. I just responded to one this very day.

If I alerted on all those, I'd be missing my finger down to the second knuckle.

[BiggJawn]

8. Yes, I remember....

"Hey, Kids! What sound does a STEAM WHISTLE make???" :evilgrin:

They were prowling Skepticism, too, don't forget...

And I also see the bile that the Randi-Shermer haters spew up. and I have to wonder, "Gee, are you , like, Uri Gellar's MOM or something?"

Maybe if I was more invested in Mike Shermer than just having similar interests (bikes and Rationality) I could feel the same deep sense of personal attack that the Woo-Woos and "The People of The BOOK" do, but I just can't. I defend myself, and my family.

Notning against Mike or Jim, but I've been caught "Defending the Honour of a Whore" too many times.

As Bly wrote, I have LONG passed from white and red knighthood into the black. It would seem that those who think Jeebus or his sour-pussed Old Man need THEIR puny help defending themselves have not.

[FM Arouet666]

10. Then we need to take another approach

I recall the "woo-woo" hunt, we made ourselves easy targets for those seeking to attack the group. If we do away with all name calling, just sound, rational criticism, I do not think we will have as many posts censored. Members in AA and Skeptics need to do away with the things which allow others to efficiently attack our posts.

[rexcat]

6. Excellent post...

What I have experienced is once I get to know someone, be they a liberal or conservative who are religious, and explain that I am an atheist, more than likely they will find excuses not to socialize with me. I am not out there trying to cause trouble when I bring up the topic but it sure sours the relationship. The odd thing is I married a catholic. My wife of 24 years doesn't seem to mind as long as I don't talk about it much but the in-laws would rather see me dead because of my lack of religious beliefs. To me religion is poison because religious people see the world in black and white. Religion by its very nature is exclusionary. I have yet to find a religion that is inclusive (except maybe the UUs). If you don't believe what I believe then I don't want to associate with you. For that reason alone I don't have many friends but the friends I do have are special.

I will be attending the first annual Warren County (Ohio) Democrat dinner October 8. When I talk to Ted Strickland (running for Governor) and Paul Hackett (former Congressional office seeker) I will be asking if their political views are inclusive or exclusionary. Should be an interesting evening.

[Phentex]

16. Perhaps politically....

I have been reminded by some representatives that *I* am in the minority here. However, with personal friends I don't have that problem. I try not to mock them for their beliefs and they tolerate me for mine. Of course, that's easier when we all believe in separation of church and state at least.

[trotsky]

18. I have been reminded by several DUers

what a minority we are. Yeah, a couple ended up banned, but it still happens.

[FM Arouet666]

9. Stick your whole foot in......

I say post this to GD and see what happens. However, I would edit out the last part of the third from last paragraph. Don't mention locking or tomb stoning.

When you get nailed and you will, offer replies with a rational, controlled voice, avoid ad hominem, and see what occurs. I have seen post after post stating that AA members are being targeted. We here in AA will support you, and we have another example for Skinner if you are squelched.

I think that a well reasoned, unemotional, response to those which hope to whip up controversy is the best way to halt the current conundrum we find our selves within.

[GOPFighter]

15. That's a good idea

Posting this to GD (without the verbiage you noted of course) and see what happens. It would have to be some evening where I have time to think before responding...and I would alert everyone on A&A to watch for it. :toast:

[dwckabal]

11. National Day of Prayer = Thanksgiving

Unfortunately (for the fundalmentalists), the modern day Thanksgiving holiday has "jumped the shark," so to speak, in terms of its religious significance, and instead is now used to perpetuate the myth of the Founding Fathers™.

So, to satisfy the fundamentalists, Bush puts forth a proposed National Day of Prayer. Go figure.

[onager]

12. I WISH they'd...

...use Thanksgiving to promote the Founding Fathers, those grumpy rationalist Enlightenment curmudgeons!

Instead, that holiday has become a stupid Disneyfied tribute to the damn Puritans.

I'd like to see our grammar schools do a REAL tribute to the Puritans. After holding a Mock Salem Witch Trial, the kiddies could put that uppity Anne Hutchinson in the stocks and drive the Quakers and freethinkers out of town.

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. Scene two of that tribute should include.....

illustrating how after only a few years, the Plymouth colony was ABSORBED by nearby colonies mainly because the plymouth folks apparently SUCKED at governing themselves and their entire colony was on the verge of collapse.


I read that somewhere....can't remember where, though

[Goblinmonger]

14. Where do I sign up!!!

My American Lit class just finished The Crucible (test is today!!!). I had to choke back my laughs at the lines there were right out of the Bush speechbook.

[GOPFighter]

17. The National Day of Prayer happens every May

Here are the things Bush said we should pray for: 1. Give thanks for our freedom, 2. Help in defending the gift of freedom from those who seek to destroy it, and 3. To acknowledge our dependence on the Almighty.

My question is, if prayer is so powerful, why pray for abstract concepts like these. Next year we should challenge the President to ask Americans to pray for something significant, something that would benefit the whole country. Suggestions: no more bombing of civilians in Iraq by insurgents for the rest of the year. Surely if 100,000,000 Americans get down on their knees and beseach God to give the poor Iraqi citizens a respite from the bombing God would end the bombing, I mean even God must be pretty sick of the carnage.

These are the things we've got to start doing: force their hand. We all know that very few Christians have any REAL confidence in their god. We've got to get them to put up or shut up. Something like this puts us on the offensive in a rational and sensible way (why waste prayer? use it to solve our problems!) and them on the defensive.