My father's funeral...flame away

[lapislzi]

My father died this week. As I'm the only child (my mother died years ago), the arrangements were up to me. He was a haphazard Catholic, but had pre-arranged his funeral with the church/funeral director in the town where he lived. I honored his wishes.

The problem arose when I had to march into the Catholic church where I hadn't set foot lo these 20 years and sit in the front row with every family member, every neighbor, every family friend sitting a row or two back, with their eyes on me and my daughter. What to do? What example to set for my 10-year-old?

I observed the ritual. I walked through. I did it out of respect for the people who'd showed up (who were mostly all Catholics) to remember my dad. I hated every minute of it, except for the brief eulogy delivered by a friend that I'd had to fight with the church to allow. But I believed my obligation to those assembled overrode my own discomfort for what I believe is simply a meaningless ritual.

Should I have stood there like a monolith, thereby not violating my principles? My principles were violated already by having to be there in the first place. What is the experience of other atheists in such situations? My closest friend, also an atheist, refuses to participate in any ritual whatsoever, regardless of circumstances.

I don't know if I set the right example. Ask me in 5 years.

[YankeyMCC]

1. My father died last week

And I found myself faced with a very similar situation.

Read my post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=263x1168#1239

"Every give a Eulogy..." thread.

Basically I had no real problem going to the church and standing there silent but in respectful stance throughout the ceremony. But it came to a head at a couple of points. The eulogy I planed to give and accepting the communion wafer. In the case of the wafer I essentially decided I did not want to let my ideas become the center of attention or show disrespect to the many nice nomially catholic people who were there.

And I have an 8 year old son. I simply talked to him before and after, I basically talk to him often about what I believe and about caring for other people so I'm comfortable that I didn't give him a conflicting signal if he even noticed.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. My sincere sympathies to you, as well.

I also think that you did exactly the right thing. You respected your Dad's wishes and set an excellent example for your son.:hug:

[goddess40]

27. I do church for funerals and weddings

and anyone that knows me at all knows I'm there for family not for religious reasons and I don't give a rip about the rest.

When my dad died just before we went into the church the pastor started naming all the family that would miss him. He named his wife and the son they had together but when they got past all the brothers and sisters, including the one that died when my dad was a child, the pastor looked and my brother, sister and I and said "and his other children". It wasn't a slam at my atheism but that I wasn't Lutheran, or maybe because I was important enough to my dad to warrant a mention. My sister's a born again wacko and my brother remains a half-assed Catholic.

Sorry about your dad, I always kind of envy those that feel grief at the passing of a parent. I felt nothing but loss of what might have been had my dad not been a jerk.

[fshrink]

2. When forced by the circumstances

I act like an anthropologist or a traveler in another culture. I comply with the locals' rituals. And I explain my children that it's what I do and why. Sorry about both of your dads... This is a devastating loss for all of us when that happens.

[Sabriel]

17. fshrink is on to something

I've been asked to various ceremonies by well-meaning friends who seek to turn me to religion, and I have to say I've enjoyed the spectacle and appreciated the rituals. The music was wonderful, but the censer (?) was literally nauseating.

In any case, it's an opportunity to look analytically, first-hand, at things with which I'm unfamiliar, and I find it interesting--as fshrink puts it--in an anthro sort of way.

My condolences to both of you. A similar event is heading my way soon.

[sybylla]

33. Yes. And that is what I tell my children also

Weddings, baptisms and funerals are the only time they are ever exposed to religion and religious rituals. We talk about it before and after. We sit respectfully surrounded by our family/friends but do not kneel, bow our heads, sing or participate in any other way in the rituals. The only exception is when we are in a Catholic church and we get to the part where we are to wish peace on each other. In that, I always participate.

Generally, the worshipful are too busy to notice but I've never had anyone complain to me that I didn't participate.

[Philostopher]

3. You won't feel any different in five years, probably.

I did all the bells and whistles my mother wanted -- my father died in '96, and there was a funeral at which a few religious people spoke. My one move of mild anarchy was not to lower my head when the minister(s) prayed. My ex husband and a close friend were both there, and they didn't lower their heads either -- the friend is also atheist/agnostic, and the ex considered himself a pagan at the time, so Christian prayers didn't hold any reverence for us. I never do, I keep my head up and my eyes open. Anybody who 'catches me' doing that isn't being reverent either, so if they're going to hammer me for not practicing their religion when they're not practicing their religion, they can take a flying leap.

Dad just wanted to be buried with no fuss, and for us to have a wake for him, and that was all. He was quite clear about it, but Mom wasn't having any of it. She wanted the funeral home visitation, the religious service and the whole nine yards, and since she was the survivor, she got it. And I went along with it for her, because she was the one who'd have to remember it.

Funerals aren't for the dead, they're for the survivors -- I wouldn't have upset my family by choosing a time like a funeral to make a stand on my lack of religion. Funeral religious services comfort those religious survivors of the dead, that's really all there is to it. Mom had enough to deal with -- I did it for her. I'd have been happy to have let them lower Dad in the ground and go have a gathering somewhere else where we talked about him, just like he wanted.

[trotsky]

4. You did what your father wanted. That's what matters.

The example you set for your 10-year-old was that sometimes you do things you don't want to do, because it means something to the people you love. That's a very good thing to teach kids.

Besides, as my wife always says, if you don't believe in the magic, it can't hurt you. ;-)

Condolences to you.

[gottaB]

8. that's what I think too

Maybe accepting communion is special. I wouldn't know. In a Catholic church I will genuflect, mumble through hymns, litanies, whatever is expected. Ideally I should be given the opportunity to decline any invitation to attend mass, but some invitations are more compelling than others.

[Cobalt Violet]

5. No flame from here.

I did the a very similar thing a few years back when my father died. My mom is still alive and it was expected of me. It just wasn't the time or place for me to fight about my beliefs. It would've made thing more difficult for her. I chose to go to church and go through the meaningless ritual. In going to church I realized just how much of cult it is. Not that I didn't already know that.

[PassingFair]

6. I did the eulogy for my atheist dad in a church...

My mother is a fairly devout Episcopalian (if there is such a thing) and she insisted on a "cathedral" funeral ceremony, but NOT visitation or any of that rot.
I quoted from Dickens and Seneca.
I spoke of his life on earth, and so did my brothers.
The religious ceremony definately took second place to the straightforward honoring of the man who made the humanitarian choice in any situation, and it made my mom happy to see us all bathed in the glow of stained glass.


I still miss him very much.

[Longhorn]

7. I'm sorry for the loss of your father.

I think you did the right thing. A funeral isn't the right place to stir things up, when everyone is so upset anyway.

But your post serves as a reminder that each of us should give some thought to our own wishes for when we die.

[politicat]

9. Funerals are for the living.

You would have ended up hurting others who were already in pain if you'd not been a respectful observer of the ritual.

When it comes to atheist behavior at theist funerals, my first rule is, First, Do No Harm.

When my great-grandmother died, I went to the funeral because I knew that it would be supportive for my mother and grandmother and great-grandfather. I hate churches, especially my great-grandmother's (and a lot of my distant family is of the fundy-nasty variety) but the reason I was there was not for the church, not for the religion. It was for the people I care about.

As I used to tell my stepdaugther, being an adult isn't about doing what you want when you want, it's about doing what you don't want with good grace and respect for others.

Pcat

[Gelliebeans]

12. I agree completely

First Do No Harm----that nails it, politicat

I tell my son the same thing that you told your stepdaughter

My condolences to lapislzi, YankeyMCC, ResistTheCoup

[lapislzi]

16. Thank you, gelliebeans

We did OK by the old man, and that's the best anyone can do. My empathy to all who've been in the same boat.

[lapislzi]

15. Well said, Pcat

I will quote your exact words to my daughter the next time the subject comes up. I was also fortunate to have a close friend who's a former Catholic, now a pagan, sitting nearby. She was able to quietly explain the symbolism whilst demonstrating the procedures. It kept my daughter interested, not excessively emotional, and allowed me to focus on the task at hand.

Thank you.

[ResistTheCoup]

10. My best friend died last week.

He died after a two year battle with cancer. My husband and I , both former Catholics, and my son (all of us are atheists) attended his Catholic funeral.

We all sat at the front of the church and participated in the service by standing when asked or being seated when we were told to either be seated or kneel. We didn't sing any of the hymns or take part in any of the responses and certainly didn't take communion. No one looked at us strangely and many other attendees (probably not Catholic but from some other organized religion) did pretty much the same.

After the service we asked my son what he thought (he's 18). He said that he was sad that the priest spent almost all of his time talking about Jesus and God and very little time talking about our friend. He was hoping it would be a celebration of his life rather than a religious ceremony.

I, too, was upset that the priest seemed to use the occasion of my friends death to plug Jesus rather than share remembrances of my friend's life. Going to the family's home afterward and sharing stories about him by those who loved him was much more cathartic to me than the service. Like others have said, the service is really for the living, and his family is religious, too and I wanted to be there for them in their time of sorrow. I felt that I could attend the service without compromising my beliefs and still showing respect and love for my departed friend.

[lapislzi]

11. Thanks for sharing that

...and I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

I actually discouraged people from attending the funeral mass, asking instead that they join our family for a private gathering celebrating my dad's life. Only the diehard Catholics and the people who couldn't attend the gathering showed up at the funeral, and I was grateful for this.

The people who knew him best made sure he was sent to his reward with his 2 best friends: a pack of smokes and a pint of Johnnie Walker. I thought the rosary beads were ridiculous, but I left them alone.

[ResistTheCoup]

18. You're welcome

and I'm also very sorry for the loss of your father.

The private gathering celebrating your Dad's life sounds like a wonderful idea. I also love the pack of smokes and pint of Johnnie Walker. Sounds like your Dad had some great friends, too!

[Biased Liberal Media]

13. Im sorry for your loss first. Secondly

My father's side is all Catholic and we usually have Catholic funerals...but it never really affected me. I dont have any advice for you, but I'm sorry for your loss.

[leftofthedial]

14. you did the right thing

you showed respect to your father and to the members of the community who came to respect your father.

funerals are for the living, not for the dead. Making a scene or "setting an example" would be foolish, insensitive and selfish.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

19. My condolences, lapislzi - I lost my dad the same week 21 yrs ago

It was sudden and unexpected, and left my mother devastated. Even though she no longer practiced, and most of the kids were no longer believers, we did the whole Catholic thing. It was not only the easiest way to go, what with everyone in shock, but also all the older relatives, including Dad's mother who survived him, were very devout and any other kind of service would have distressed them terribly.

There are times to stand on principal, and times when kindness takes precedence. Though I am curt with prosletyzers, if someone says to me "God bless you," I reply "And bless you." I don't feel I compromise myself by accepting their kind intentions, and to return them is like sharing an embrace. Small kindnesses in a hard world.

If you had behaved otherwise at your father's service, it would have become all about you, not all about him. You done good. My condolences again.

[lapislzi]

20. Thank you, SWMBO

It's hard losing someone at this time of year (my evil twin was secretly saying, "the old sumbitch couldn't hang on for another couple of weeks?!"), but we muddle through as best we can.

I was able to coordinate the service to make it a little less irksome for me, although I had to stand firm about allowing a family friend to speak a brief eulogy (these are strongly discouraged nowadays by many parishes). My final act of advocacy on behalf of the old man.

My daughter's genuine curiosity about the rite was also a welcome distraction ("Mom? Why is there smoke coming out of that pot and why is the priest waving it around?").

Peace to you.

[Rhiannon12866]

26. It is always easier to respect the wishes of the departed,

and that's what you're showing, respect. And older relatives expect certain traditions to be followed. And, if this gives them comfort, then this is what it's all about.

As far as your family friend delivering a eulogy, this was most fitting and proper. There has to be something personal about someone's last send-off. The life of the person who's gone is what you're celebrating, so I think that the more personal it becomes, no matter how it's celebrated, the better.

When my grandmother died, my cousin and I both spoke, as we had for both of her parents. But she also had what I thought was an unusual request, she's a dancer and wanted to perform a dance in honor of our grandmother. She'd done this for both of her parents (who were Protestants, BTW), so I'd gotten used to it. My mother arranged to have the funeral in her church, since my grandmother had retired to North Carolina, though there had been a previous service down there, at her retirement community, which I had attended, and also had spoken at that one. My mother totally freaked at the thought of my cousin dancing in her church, but I backed up my cousin, who's the closest thing I have to a sister. Amazingly, so did the priest. This was perfectly okay with him, so my cousin did her dance. So I guess it depends on the priest.

And, I'm sorry, but I laughed when I read your daughter's comment! It brought back memories. When I was young and forced to attend church with my parents, my brother was an altar boy. And he was the one in charge of swinging that incense. And he really got into it! Once, he hit another boy in the mouth with that little pot. And he used so much incense, one Easter three people passed out in the church! I don't think he was allowed to do it again, especially since he used up about a year's worth of the stuff in only a few months!

Again, I'm so sorry about your Dad. It does get easier, over time, but there still are some very tough moments, no matter how long it has been.;(

[Book Lover]

21. You did the right thing - from one who knows

I was in the same situation last year when my mother died, only she was no longer a Catholic by that time, but had been re-baptized and "born again". I kept my silence and participated minimally while fulfilling her final wishes which seemed the best thing to do. Actually, I performed the casting of her ashes, which seemed to me to be the least religious part of it all; nearly a-religious, in fact.

Please accept my condolences for your loss, especially at this very busy time of year.

[Rhiannon12866]

35. I agree with you, and also feel that you did very well for your mother

It must have been very difficult, especially dealing with the born-again aspect. After I lost my Dad, which was very tough for me, I spoke about him in church, since he had very strong faith, but I just spoke about my Dad and how he loved animals. But when I returned to work, my born-again colleague kept trying to talk to me, not anything I wanted to hear and not the right time, so I sympathize. BTW, I ended up actually becoming sort of friends with this guy, but it took time and distance. There's good in everybody, but you can't force your views on anyone. But you respected your mother's wishes, which was what was important, and I admire you for this, and please, also, accept my sympathies. I lost my Dad just before Christmas, and still miss him.;(

[lapislzi]

38. Thanks, and my condolences--it's never easy

The hyper-religious sentiments expressed by some people inwardly made me want to gag, but I took them in the spirit (!) in which they were intended. No point in alienating people who've gone out of their way to be nice.

I lost my mother many years ago (and am an only child), so I had to stand alone to face the pious hordes. Thank goodness for pagan friends who had the sense to bring champagne.

[Rhiannon12866]

40. I agree, sympathy and kindness are always more than welcome,

when you're going through such a tough loss, unless they try to proselytize, like my colleague, and I'm afraid I was pretty rude to him, which isn't like me, but I was in no mood to hear his message.:grr:

I am so sorry that you had to face the loss of your Dad so much on your own, but thankful that you had such good and supportive friends. I had no problem with the church aspect of it, and spoke there, as you know, but this was about my father, and this was his choice and his belief, though I felt considerable anger, after I got over my shock, that his God had allowed him to suffer so much.:grr:

I only have one brother, a right-wing, passive-aggressive, obsessive-compulsive who hates me, so, if I lost my mother, I'd also be on my own. And I've thought about it. What would I do? The rest of my family, who really are very nice, though believers all, mostly Catholic, would expect me to get up and speak for my mother, as I have for the rest of my family. I'll speak in a church, in a cemetery, in a retirement home, I don't much care, if it was someone I loved. But my mother is also right-wing and has been emotionally abusive, and I have no idea what I could find to say. I want to love my mother, but she makes it so hard. *sigh* Sorry, to bring up something that hasn't even happened, on your thread, but I've worried a lot about this.:shrug:

Anyway, it sounds as if you got though the recent loss of your Dad very well, without having to compromise your beliefs, because he was your Dad and these were his. I did the same for mine and anyone I cared about, because they made their own choices and you go to these things just to honor the person. But I'm so glad that you had such good and thoughtful friends to support you. and that they brought champagne, LOL! My cousin, the only other girl on my mother's side of the family stood beside me, and I wouldn't have made it without her.:-)

[curse10]

22. You did the proper thing

I know my mother will want a full catholic mass. And I will do it with pride. Although our her religious beliefs and my lack thereof continuously clash, she has always respected my decision. I think she secretly hopes I will return to the church but I am not angry at her for that.

I try not to be an angry atheist. And I try to respect the choices the people I love have made. As for your daugther you taught her a valuable lesson- sometimes you have to respect things that you don't necessarily agree with. We may not believe in a higher being, but lots of people do, including ones we love. We have to learn to accept that, not hate it.

[MercutioATC]

23. I'm an athiest who takes communion at funerals..

My family on the east coast is all Roman Catholic and it's part of the ritual. I don't have a problem observing the ritual, not do I feel that I'm being disrespectful.

[Rhiannon12866]

36. I do, as well, joining my father's Irish Catholic family

It's just what's done, and what I was taught. And I don't feel that I'm being disrespectful, either, but just joining the family and taking part. Thanks for sharing this.

[Rhiannon12866]

24. I think you did exactly the right thing.

You respected your father's wishes, just as you would wish for other people to respect yours.:-)

I delivered the eulogy at my father's funeral, well, one of them. My grandmother (his mother) also spoke, as did the bishop. My father had very strong faith and I was still trying to make him proud of me. But losing my Dad, too young and to a devastating cancer, when he had such faith and did a lot of good in the world, was pretty much what snuffed out what embers of faith that I had left. How could God have allowed this to happen to such a person?;(

My most sincere sympathies. I have been there and know what it's like to lose your Dad. In fact, I'm wiping my eyes as I type this and it's been over ten years. I honestly believe that your Dad would have been very proud of you, as well.:hug:

[lapislzi]

28. Aw, shucks...thanks

My dad had a peculiar faith...kept it to himself. He saw some horrendous fighting in the Pacific during WWII. Refused ever to discuss it.

Getting the flag at the Natl. Cemetery was tough. I wanted to jump up and hug those serious, fresh-faced Marines and tell them to please be careful, please don't get killed, please call your mothers more often. It made it more poignant to me because our young people are being sacrificed needlessly. Even when you're fighting the "good fight" (which we are not at present!)...it devours you from the inside out. That's what I learned about war from my dad. He never supported another war...ever.

Peace and hugs to you.

[Rhiannon12866]

32. I'm quite serious, that I think that you did this just right

And that your Dad would have been proud and pleased, and that's what really counts, isn't it? That's all I worried about for mine, despite all my issues, which just fell away, when I lost my Dad.;(

WWII is a huge thing it deal with, I agree. My Dad missed it, since he was, fortunately, too young, but he did serve, briefly, in the Navy, and hated it. He always told me that, if he could stand that, I could stand anything else, *sigh*

Wow! The National Cemetery! This is the big leagues, and it must have been very tough! And I share your feelings. There is a Marine who comes from a local community, who was featured in the local paper, whose duty is at military funerals, so has been really busy, recently. It breaks my heart, but they aren't being shipped out, since they are too busy serving at funerals for so many others who have been killed. Makes no sense to me, but I'm on your side, and your Dad's.;(

Peace to you, as well, and to your Dad. You did exactly right by him, I think, and he would have been very proud of you and the goodbye and honor that he received, IMHO.;(

Rhiannon:hug:

[Lithos]

29. You did right

You respected your father, the man, and showed him great love.

L-

[robbedvoter]

30. I suppose everyone is entitled to go the way one wants - your father

included. Just as I would abhor the thought of someone making some sort of churchy ritual for me, I would observe whatever last wishes a loved one had in this regard, without even bothering to examine their reasons. It's just an entitlement we all have.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

31. oh no, you behaved with decorum and good manners and you

won't regret it. just explain to your daughter, in a few years, that you don't share those beliefs and that you would like to be remembered in a different way. Condolences on the loss of your father.

[sybylla]

34. You did right in my book

In truth, I think funerals are the one ritual that is really more for the survivors than the deceased. But following the deceased's wishes is important, whether you agree or not. That doesn't mean you can't do a few things on your own to mourn the loss in your own way both the day of the funeral and after.

It's not easy to sit through a religious service when you've just lost someone close to you. It's difficult not to scoff at every "amen." It's difficult not to stand up and shout to the rafters the insanity of the liturgy. But you don't. Because no matter what your thoughts are, you respect the wishes of the deceased and accept the good wishes of his well-meaning family and friends, even if the intent and method of those good wishes contradicts with your beliefs.

That is the good example you set for your daughter. Use it as an example of tolerance, turn it into an educational experience, do what you must to get through it and teach your daughter the same. By not going, you would have yielded your right to say good bye to your father. You didn't let the religious cow you into giving up that right. You didn't walk away merely because of the company you must keep while you mourn. Sure, it wasn't entirely on your own terms, but you were there. And I bet in five years you'll be glad you were.

[lapislzi]

37. Thanks, and you're right

It wasn't *my* day to make a political statement. The people I care about know my positions, and the people I don't care about don't need to know.

It didn't stop me from feeling like a hypocrite doing the walk-through, but that's for my own ledger.

(It also didn't help that we were nearly asphyxiated by the voluminous clouds of incense, although it was kind of fitting seeing as the old man died from complications of smoking. Makes for some real fine tears if you weren't crying already!)

[China_cat]

39. You set the example

of not stomping on other people's beliefs even though your own are so totally different. You set the example of honoring what your father wanted even though you would have done it differently.

You taught your child respect. You did a good thing.

[JNelson6563]

41. When in Rome....

I choose to do what gives those around me comfort. You honored your father's wishes and showed respect toward the beliefs of those who also wanted to honor him. This was hardly a time to make a statement and take a stand.

My neighbor across the street died last summer. They are devout Catholics. I grew up Catholic so I know the routine. I went to the funeral mass and I know it was a comfort to the widow, a wonderful lady. It was a small price to pay to bring something positive to one who has done a lot for so many others.

I am sorry to hear of your loss, I'm sure your dad would have been pleased that you took the path you did.

Julie

[GOPFighter]

42. I see nothing wrong with respecting other's beliefs

At weddings and funerals I do my best to show respect for the traditions of the church/temple I am attending. I don't feel like a hypocrite. Of course there are things I won't do (e.g., lead a prayer or bow before a religious icon, etc, but I've rarely been put in that position).